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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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343 is fucking awful at responding to criticism, or even hard evidence of something being broken.

 

Early on in Halo 5's lifespan, Warzone Assault servers for ANZ stopped working. Every game we got put in was US or EU, even during peak time when we knew there were enough to fill 7 or 8 lobbies on Aus servers. We told 343 about this and they kept telling us that 'oh, no they're working fine there's just not enough players'.

 

So we got all the major ANZ Spartan Companies together and organised a session, and create teams to test this theory. We had 5 or 6 full To12 of ANZ players searching for WZA games, and the first round of MM, we got matched two of our teams match together.

 

The game never started because it turns out the ANZ servers were actually fucked for WZA. Not a single of our the games that were our ANZ To12's that matched against each other ever started. Told 343, gave them evidence, and to this day I don't think they were ever fixed. 

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So who wants to make bets that despite all the "It's ready when it's ready" talk about MCC PC it's still going to launch a complete buggy mess?

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5 minutes ago, Mow said:

So who wants to make bets that despite all the "It's ready when it's ready" talk about MCC PC it's still going to launch a complete buggy mess?

I mean... okay I want to have faith right? They're doing a way better job with MCC than whoever shipped it. That's a fact. The other fact is that its still MCC. Nobody should bet that it wouldn't be broken somehow lol

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1 minute ago, Snipe Three said:

I mean... okay I want to have faith right? They're doing a way better job with MCC than whoever shipped it. That's a fact. The other fact is that its still MCC. Nobody should be that it wouldn't be broken somehow lol

The reason I say this is because of from what I've seen from the latest flight there's still plenty of glaring issues (mouse input, connection, crashes, etc.) and apparently this is the last flight before the game actually launches, it makes me think that maybe they aren't actually commit to making the game perfect but were trying to calm worries and build back some good will after the disaster that was MCC's launch. I mean maybe I should have seen this coming from the start but now it actually has me kinda concerned for the game, I don't want it to launch and be dead within a month, I've been waiting for Halo PC for way to long for that the happen...

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1 hour ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

We told 343 about this and they kept telling us that 'oh, no they're working fine there's just not enough players'.

On today's episode of Highest Player Retention Since Halo 3...

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Waypoint guy: sprint make me feel powerful

Also Waypoint guy: sprinting should drain shields

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3 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I would say they are the gold standard. Not because I can point out particular aspects that made them so good but more so because when I started to play the games I just didn't think about it. It just worked. 

So they're the "gold standard" on an anecdote that it worked for you? Not because you can point out actual pros?

 

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3 hours ago, Mow said:

So who wants to make bets that despite all the "It's ready when it's ready" talk about MCC PC it's still going to launch a complete buggy mess?

no matter what PR bullshit they say, Reach is launching before holiday sales...They will MAKE holiday sales for xbox and PC or die trying

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If anybody wants more gametypes in custom games, go to \Steam\steamapps\common\Halo The Master Chief Collection Flighting\haloreach\hopper_game_variants and copy the ones you want to \Steam\steamapps\common\Halo The Master Chief Collection Flighting\haloreach\game_variants

Same thing for map variants.

 

 

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10 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

So they're the "gold standard" on an anecdote that it worked for you? Not because you can point out actual pros?

 

Absolutely as players that's really all we can have. We don't have all of the data to break anything else down nor do we need it. We can feel what does or does not work for us. Now I guess I could say H5 was objectively the worst on the grounds that latency was involved and not consistent reducing the ability to learn it and at least the others like H3 even when they felt bad were consistent but its sort of a pointless distinction 

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Saying CE and H2 are part of a "trilogy of shit aiming" just because they lack the modern deadzone options just reeks of ignorance. Hey, these games were designed for much worse hardware and laid the foundation of aiming in modern console shooters. 25% deadzone was the norm back then and I bet many modern games still have square deadzones, weird diagonal curves and high% of deadzones that cannot be customized. No one ever said the aiming in CE and H2 are literally perfect but they are good enough that no one ever complained about aiming in Halo until 2007/2015 when games with intentionally designed much worse aiming came out.

The fact 343 could easily add a bunch of options to all the MCC games and CE and H2 play even more like a charm is a testament to how good the aiming in those games works. H3 and H5 though? Still play like shit even after all those patches and added options. Same goes for H5F which interesting enough has much better gamepad aiming than the Xbone version.

Let's just all hope they can fix Reach's mouse aiming before launch, but I'm gonna keep my hopes low.

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@Basu Eldewrito aiming with mouse and stick was impeccable. They hired some people from that team so I'll bet they get it worked out. 

Aiming on Reach always felt very smooth to me. It was just Halo 3 I had issues with..

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3 hours ago, Knighty Knight said:

@Basu Eldewrito aiming with mouse and stick was impeccable. They hired some people from that team so I'll bet they get it worked out. 

Aiming on Reach always felt very smooth to me. It was just Halo 3 I had issues with..

Mouse aiming on Eldewrito was most certainly not impeccable, or anything close to that.

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3 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

Absolutely as players that's really all we can have. We don't have all of the data to break anything else down nor do we need it. We can feel what does or does not work for us. Now I guess I could say H5 was objectively the worst on the grounds that latency was involved and not consistent reducing the ability to learn it and at least the others like H3 even when they felt bad were consistent but its sort of a pointless distinction 

I mean, we could argue that the increased emphasis on diagonal turning options in later titles compared to the former enables and enforces a much more accurate view of what you're doing to your controller. Over you not being as potentially accurate as possible with the lack of them, given how they were developed. To a point, I would that goes past preference. Only because that positively affects the end user in ways the other systems don't tangibly, even if you can "adapt" to the others. My point being, I would argue being able to cope with something differs from being able to benefit from added positives.

To Halo 5, I would say the potential inconsistency is definitely dumb, but you can tell just by how people play that performance isn't dramatically changing because of aim latency, and any performance changes by server performance are gonna pertain to shot reg and lag comp playing more a role in fights than you actually fighting your aim. Every player deals with the same aim, but we still have pros, and consistent players who will rail you over and over because the actual latency that affects you is beyond minute. It's just that we've noticed it's a thing. But that means that players can and have learned how to aim and fly, and we aren't swimming in a game of 50% win rates and fight conclusions. Of course, I'm not saying this is ideal, good, or wanted. I'm just saying I think the idea that you reduce the ability to learn how to aim in 5 is hilariously overblown.

3 hours ago, Basu said:

The fact 343 could easily add a bunch of options to all the MCC games and CE and H2 play even more like a charm is a testament to how good the aiming in those games works. H3 and H5 though? Still play like shit even after all those patches and added options. Same goes for H5F which interesting enough has much better gamepad aiming than the Xbone version.

I don't know how you draw this conclusion. They had to dedicate resources to overhaul an aiming system to act nothing like its old self because people were complaining and having issues with that old system across multiple titles. That isn't saying the old aiming was good. At most, it's saying people coped with it, probably because the entire aspect of joystick aiming in an FPS was so new and we just had no perspective at the time.

 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I mean, we could argue that the increased emphasis on diagonal turning options in later titles compared to the former enables and enforces a much more accurate view of what you're doing to your controller. Over you not being as potentially accurate as possible with the lack of them, given how they were developed. To a point, I would that goes past preference. Only because that positively affects the end user in ways the other systems don't tangibly, even if you can "adapt" to the others. My point being, I would argue being able to cope with something differs from being able to benefit from added positives.

To Halo 5, I would say the potential inconsistency is definitely dumb, but you can tell just by how people play that performance isn't dramatically changing because of aim latency, and any performance changes by server performance are gonna pertain to shot reg and lag comp playing more a role in fights than you actually fighting your aim. Every player deals with the same aim, but we still have pros, and consistent players who will rail you over and over because the actual latency that affects you is beyond minute. It's just that we've noticed it's a thing. But that means that players can and have learned how to aim and fly, and we aren't swimming in a game of 50% win rates and fight conclusions. Of course, I'm not saying this is ideal, good, or wanted. I'm just saying I think the idea that you reduce the ability to learn how to aim in 5 is hilariously overblown.

I don't know how you draw this conclusion. They had to dedicate resources to overhaul an aiming system to act nothing like its old self because people were complaining and having issues with that old system across multiple titles. That isn't saying the old aiming was good. At most, it's saying people coped with it, probably because the entire aspect of joystick aiming in an FPS was so new and we just had no perspective at the time.

 

They added modern aiming because people complained about H3s aiming primarily not CE and H2. Actually H2 might have some bullshit from H2V carried over I forgot about that, but that's obviously not Bungies or OG H2s fault. And again when they updated the aiming it was mostly H3 kids that loved it, not the H2 and CE crowd. 

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I use modern aiming across all titles on MCC because it feels much better to look around with, and for added consistency since I switch between games pretty often.  That said, H1 and H2 aiming were incredible for their time. Like, revolutionary. They put games that came out much later on to shame in that respect.

I haven't gone back to OG H2 in many years, but I always remember that game feeling really nice to look and move around in.  I can't relate to any complaints about that, and I don't ever recall hearing any about it until this discussion.

For OG H1, the slower vertical sensitivity is immediately apparent, and I've become much more attuned to the Xboxes getting hotter and the gameplay getting "muddier", which sucks. But when everything is running the way it should, it still feels pretty good to look around and aim in that game.

H3 feels like crap, but you can get used to it. And the way most people binge that game, it's usually not a complaint for very long.

I had no problems with Reach, but H4 and H2A definitely feel better.

H5 is just atrocious. It's still awful. Tracking a target just feels like such a chore in this game. I feel like it's so needlessly difficult just to get my reticle to do what I want. And when you combine that with the most erratic movement, derpy power weapons, and the highest escapability in the whole series, I'm just left with a stressful and unfun experience more often than not. I feel like I have to work way too hard for what should be a routine kill, because I have to account for stupid movement mechanics and wrestle the shitty aiming mechanics. Every battle feels like work to me, not a fun contest like in other games. I'm still bitter about it because I really wanted to like this game. I don't enjoy advanced movement, but I still found fun in Reach and H4 in the right settings and playlists. So in theory I was ready to tolerate it again in H5, and the arena style and static weapon spawns still appeal to me. I think It's mostly a really good game, in theory. But then I actually play it, and all I feel is stress, frustration and anxiety, when I don't feel that way in any other Halo game.

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Playing through Spec Ops The Line for the first time and whilst the gameplay is bland and cumbersome, the story is superb. I can actually picture an ODST sequel with a story like that.

Imagine the Spartan IV program didn't go as intended and they started going on power trips with their new found strength and stamina. They go nuts, terrorizing the locals and make their own kingdom. Then an ODST team gets called in to take out this rogue cell and walks into a shitstorm.

So you'd be fighting against Marines to start with then some spec ops then finally the Spartan IV unit. Be pretty cool.

Not exactly "sci fi" but anything is better than Halo 4 and 5's story. 

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2 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I use modern aiming across all titles on MCC because it feels much better to look around with, and for added consistency since I switch between games pretty often.  That said, H1 and H2 aiming were incredible for their time. Like, revolutionary. They put games that came out much later on to shame in that respect.

I haven't gone back to OG H2 in many years, but I always remember that game feeling really nice to look and move around in.  I can't relate to any complaints about that, and I don't ever recall hearing any about it until this discussion.

For OG H1, the slower vertical sensitivity is immediately apparent, and I've become much more attuned to the Xboxes getting hotter and the gameplay getting "muddier", which sucks. But when everything is running the way it should, it still feels pretty good to look around and aim in that game.

H3 feels like crap, but you can get used to it. And the way most people binge that game, it's usually not a complaint for very long.

I had no problems with Reach, but H4 and H2A definitely feel better.

H5 is just atrocious. It's still awful. Tracking a target just feels like such a chore in this game. I feel like it's so needlessly difficult just to get my reticle to do what I want. And when you combine that with the most erratic movement, derpy power weapons, and the highest escapability in the whole series, I'm just left with a stressful and unfun experience more often than not. I feel like I have to work way too hard for what should be a routine kill, because I have to account for stupid movement mechanics and wrestle the shitty aiming mechanics. Every battle feels like work to me, not a fun contest like in other games. I'm still bitter about it because I really wanted to like this game. I don't enjoy advanced movement, but I still found fun in Reach and H4 in the right settings and playlists. So in theory I was ready to tolerate it again in H5, and the arena style and static weapon spawns still appeal to me. I think It's mostly a really good game, in theory. But then I actually play it, and all I feel is stress, frustration and anxiety, when I don't feel that way in any other Halo game.

We don’t always see eye to eye but we agree a lot when it comes to things in halo. Like the thing about reach and h4 but only with the right settings. Now for h4 I don’t believe those existed outside NS customs or promod, god that game made me hate sprint a lot. As for halo 5 all the AM with the heavy aim just kills it for me. I lost a lot of friends who’d get angry at me for always bitching about it, because tbh I couldn’t help it. I ended up playing other games and even got a pc and started my pc career playing pubg and never went back. I play mcc sometimes, mostly h3 and have a decent time, but always say to myself, “if only h3 was as consistent as halo online?” But back to the main topic, it’s just ridiculous that in h5 the main killer for me was the aiming, except in Warzone it felt moderately good, but I don’t want to play warzone, it’s unplayable solo(as is most of that game).  Man I wonder if respawn could make a good halo game? 

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4 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Playing through Spec Ops The Line for the first time and whilst the gameplay is bland and cumbersome, the story is superb. I can actually picture an ODST sequel with a story like that.

Imagine the Spartan IV program didn't go as intended and they started going on power trips with their new found strength and stamina. They go nuts, terrorizing the locals and make their own kingdom. Then an ODST team gets called in to take out this rogue cell and walks into a shitstorm.

So you'd be fighting against Marines to start with then some spec ops then finally the Spartan IV unit. Be pretty cool.

Not exactly "sci fi" but anything is better than Halo 4 and 5's story. 

Eh. Boss battles in Halo are never all they're cracked up to be. Even if you're talking about a hundreds or so spartan IVs appearing as enemies before the campaign is done, it's not as if the player has never killed an enemy spartan before, unless they've literally never tried multiplayer.

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4 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Playing through Spec Ops The Line for the first time and whilst the gameplay is bland and cumbersome, the story is superb. I can actually picture an ODST sequel with a story like that.

Imagine the Spartan IV program didn't go as intended and they started going on power trips with their new found strength and stamina. They go nuts, terrorizing the locals and make their own kingdom. Then an ODST team gets called in to take out this rogue cell and walks into a shitstorm.

So you'd be fighting against Marines to start with then some spec ops then finally the Spartan IV unit. Be pretty cool.

Not exactly "sci fi" but anything is better than Halo 4 and 5's story. 

H4 story was pretty cool though, and it definitely went deeper into how the four runners were about. And if you decided to read the EU it made a lot of sense. Look I get that people shouldn’t need to do that, but in a shooter game with tons of lore, it’s hard to do that to a game who’s story gameplay is about 9h long.  The Didacts unwillingness to forgive humanity,  blaming them for everything, and then chief a hybrid of human and fourrunner gives it to him. But fuck h5 for not expanding on this, and making Cortana the villain who ill add was originally supposed to stay DEAD! 

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The original halo games didn’t tell you anything that wasn’t simple. The covenant are religious people and believe in something called the great journey, although this doesn’t explain why they’re killing off humanity(the eu explains this in fact) , and in order to do so they need to find and activate the halo rings. While on these rings you find out about this monster species called the flood and the rings must be activated to destroy them, only to find out that’ll kill you and living thing with a neurosystem in (insert distant). And that’s the story, oh I’ll also add that ONLY humans can activate the rings which is never explained in the games. Deep down the previous halos just had fun GAMEPLAY! The enemies are fun to fight the scenarios etc. I still love the hell out of h3 campaign. I like the story of h4 but it’s gameplay is boring because fighting Promethions is boring, because a lot of the time they feel like annoying teleporting bullet sponges.

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Narrative should be one of the last things hammered out in the campaign development process. Maybe THE last. Come up with enough fun, engaging gameplay scenarios to fill eight or so full-length missions, then as you test them come up with a plot that gives you a sense of how to group them and what order to present them in. Then put your environment artists to work on creating cool-looking backdrops for these engagements. Tie it together with plot details at the end.

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You know looking at h5 I feel that the most balanced playlist is quick play. It only allows two man teams, so you know you’ll never match a to4. I think that just needs to be the standard across all playlist in social and ranked. Now if you decide to search 4s or 8s you will match another 4 or 8. Now I know what you’re thinking, “no teams of 3 anymore?” And the answer is YES. We don’t need that shit, because it’s too unpredictable how that random will play, and a lot of times that team of 3 won’t invite that person to party chat anyway.

as for Warzone If it’s still 12v12 then the max party size should be 4. While also having warlords where teams of 6 or 12. 

to speed up matches let’s ditch the MMR system unless population is medium to high. Allow cross play mm like cod is doing where it’s optional. There’s plenty of games out there proving M+K isn’t some mass advantage, apex, cod, fortnite. If formal can beat most pc players in cod even known gods like shroud, then that tells me controller and pc could easily work in halo. 

ranking should just be modern 10 matches, but I think a system like overwatch where someone needs to be a certain level(social ranking) should be the case. In overwatch this does many things. 
less smurfs, somewhat guarantees this person knows how to play the game since they had to of played to level 25, so they’re not coming into ranked clueless. i find grinding to level 1-50 isn’t proper placement of where people belong like a division ranking system. Division ranking also lets the game know who’s good and who isn’t. If you got to champ but decided to not play for like 3 months, do you believe you’d have the skill of a champ still? I’d debate that person would be low onyx or high diamond at least. 
 

the game also needs to add more incentives to finish games faster, more XP would be a good one. 
A forfeit option would be nice so if a team feels they can’t win, they can call a vote, must be 3/4 players who agree. 

all in all what you guys think? 

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Decided to play on controller and it looks like classic aiming and modern are switched. Classic is modern and modern is classic. If controller aim feels off to you, that may be why.

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1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

Playing through Spec Ops The Line for the first time and whilst the gameplay is bland and cumbersome, the story is superb. I can actually picture an ODST sequel with a story like that.

Imagine the Spartan IV program didn't go as intended and they started going on power trips with their new found strength and stamina. They go nuts, terrorizing the locals and make their own kingdom. Then an ODST team gets called in to take out this rogue cell and walks into a shitstorm.

So you'd be fighting against Marines to start with then some spec ops then finally the Spartan IV unit. Be pretty cool.

Not exactly "sci fi" but anything is better than Halo 4 and 5's story. 

Easily worse than 4's story on a base conceptual level. Makes absolutely no sense from the lore perspective of how these things turn out. And feels like such a really dumb stretch from something more grounded in military-esque reality. If we're talking straight UNSC that is. Since obviously the Halos were nuttily sci-fi.

I'd have rather they had a normal, human rift form between the Spartan classes. More so from the IVs to the IIs. Because you essentially live in one man's shadow and you'd never be seen as your own thing. Just a shadow of a legend. Maybe have something akin to Halo 5's concept story of chasing him down but actually have the Spartans question whether or not to even do it midway through. Or why to do it. Why, when someone so pivotal just seemingly drops everything and fucks you over. Given the IVs are much more human it'd be easy to convey a crossed sense of emotion, morality and order-taking skepticism. But not to the point of randomly terrorizing people they protect. A personal vendetta against someone who overshadows you in the way Chief does to EVERYONE in the human universe feels so much more real than something where tons of military-trained supersoldiers just go rogue and entirely against their own population. More so because this occurred from the ODSTs to the IIs, and is a ripe story for retelling in numerous ways. Even the Bionicle series didn't do this idea of a rogue kingdom in any way until an alternate universe set of stories was established AFTER its run ended. Because it was such glorified fanfiction compared to the main line, lol.

59 minutes ago, Arlong said:

The original halo games didn’t tell you anything that wasn’t simple. The covenant are religious people and believe in something called the great journey, although this doesn’t explain why they’re killing off humanity(the eu explains this in fact) .

I wanted to quote this because it's funny you're the first person outside of me to remember and bring up the fact that the Covenant's actual motive was never explained in the trilogy of games we got despite it being key to why the fuck they're doing what they do. And funny enough, the book to even explain it came out AFTER Halo 3. Absolutely horrible storytelling to forget your antagonist's actual motive, and I will never get over it for something renowned for its story, but you know.

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