Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

[Basu]

Reason #24545 why classic Halo is better than modern Halo: you can do any sort of skill jump backwards and while fighting someone.

 

[darkstar]

5 hours ago, Basu said:

Reason #24545 why classic Halo is better than modern Halo: you can do any sort of skill jump backwards and while fighting someone.

 

Yeah that play was fucking bonkers. Funny how classic movement is really more advanced than the so-called “advanced movement” mechanics of Halo 5 when observing plays like this. 

[Apoll0]

8 hours ago, Basu said:

Reason #24545 why classic Halo is better than modern Halo: you can do any sort of skill jump backwards and while fighting someone.

 

Yeah that jump was crazy.

 

Whats also hilarious is how the lone Halo 5 has at least 50% non-headshot headshots.

[Cursed Lemon]

Broadcasted mic chat is one of the things I miss about spectating Halo. 

[TheIcePrincess]

13 hours ago, Basu said:

Reason #24545 why classic Halo is better than modern Halo: you can do any sort of skill jump backwards and while fighting someone.

A completely circumstantial jump = totally valid reason as to why this is better than that. For real. Objectively. 

[Boyo]

12 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

A completely circumstantial jump = totally valid reason as to why this is better than that. For real. Objectively. 

I’m contrarian and play stupid.  Give me attention!

[Boyo]

In case you’re not just playing stupid:

It’s not about performing that single jump.  It’s about the design philosophy of a game that gives players the freedom to shoot and move omnidirectionally while navigating the map with skill based maneuvers.

It’s about the synergy between player movement and map design.  It’s about certain aspects of map movement being unforgiving so that when a player does pull off a difficult maneuver, it can be recognized as skillful.

It’s about showing players the respect that you don’t think they are so bad at the game that you need to design mechanics that shrink the skill gap.  By allowing all players to perform maneuvers that only some players should be able to, it tells you that you are not someone who can learn and persevere, even when something is difficult.

[TheIcePrincess]

14 minutes ago, Boyo said:

In case you’re not just playing stupid:

It’s not about performing that single jump.  It’s about the design philosophy of a game that gives players the freedom to shoot and move omnidirectionally while navigating the map with skill based maneuvers.

It’s about the synergy between player movement and map design.  It’s about certain aspects of map movement being unforgiving so that when a player does pull off a difficult maneuver, it can be recognized as skillful.

It’s about showing players the respect that you don’t think they are so bad at the game that you need to design mechanics that shrink the skill gap.  By allowing all players to perform maneuvers that only some players should be able to, it tells you that you are not someone who can learn and persevere, even when something is difficult.

1.) Okay, and that's its own argument. Halo 5 with its advanced movement has its own set of skills with being unable to shoot while moving, while still retaining your aim on people. Clamber jukes are insane for it. Freedom is cool, and I'm not arguing against it inherently, but it's not a be all end all in determining skillful maneuvers. 

2.) Same shit's present in advanced movement Halo. As we know by example.

3.) Thrust bump to top mid on Fathom for a quick camo play. Have fun.

[Riddler]

6 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

A completely circumstantial jump = totally valid reason as to why this is better than that. For real. Objectively. 

Its just a hl bro chill. U can apply this to any skill jump like g1 to g2, bottom shotgun to top shotgun, bottom mid to top mid, top green to s1, bottom blue to top blue, gay jump to top blue. Or for a dif map, bottom open/closed to r1 on construct. It just proves u dont need hover or sprint to do skill jumps and putting ur gun away is not necessary and it comes with the benefit of not having all the negatives of sprint and clamber. Get rid of clamber (sprint and thrust for other reasons mainly), keep spring jumps, have ghost jumps, keep slide jumps, and bring back the rest of the cut jump mechanics from halo2/3. 

[Basu]

6 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

A completely circumstantial jump = totally valid reason as to why this is better than that. For real. Objectively. 

Oh wow solid counter argument you totally got me there. If only I wrote that this is just one example and the concept applies to all jumps in the game. 

[TheIcePrincess]

14 hours ago, Riddler said:

Its just a hl bro chill. U can apply this to any skill jump like g1 to g2, bottom shotgun to top shotgun, bottom mid to top mid, top green to s1, bottom blue to top blue, gay jump to top blue. Or for a dif map, bottom open/closed to r1 on construct. It just proves u dont need hover or sprint to do skill jumps and putting ur gun away is not necessary and it comes with the benefit of not having all the negatives of sprint and clamber. Get rid of clamber (sprint and thrust for other reasons mainly), keep spring jumps, have ghost jumps, keep slide jumps, and bring back the rest of the cut jump mechanics from halo2/3. 

Luckily I didn't say you needed hover or sprint to do anything, lol. I just said it has its own sets of skills that differentiate it from older Halos, which take just as much, if not more mechanical skill in their own ways.

14 hours ago, Basu said:

Oh wow solid counter argument you totally got me there. If only I wrote that this is just one example and the concept applies to all jumps in the game. 

Well, I did post a large post two steps above that isn't just a one liner and goes more in depth into the point.

[Boyo]

You just can’t use those skills in any direction except forward.

[TheIcePrincess]

Just now, Boyo said:

You just can’t use those skills in any direction except forward.

Yeah, and omnidirectional movement isn't the sole factor determining skill-based actions.

[Boyo]

Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, and omnidirectional movement isn't the sole factor determining skill-based actions.

What about simultaneous movement and attacking, is that not the sole factor either?

[TheIcePrincess]

Just now, Boyo said:

What about simultaneous movement and attacking, is that not the sole factor either?

No, it isn't. It its own skill, as I've said. But the fact you can move and shoot, or can look and shoot isn't the sole thing governing what takes skill and what doesn't. What you're doing, how difficult it can be to do, and how probable it is to counter holds a higher weight there than just how you get to that X point of what you're doing. 

[Boyo]

So you can only use these skills while moving forward.  But you can’t attack while moving forward.  So in order to use these skills, you have give up your ability to attack.  Sounds like a great design philosophy for a game where attacking is the main purpose.

[TheIcePrincess]

Just now, Boyo said:

So you can only use these skills while moving forward.  But you can’t attack while moving forward.  So in order to use these skills, you have give up your ability to attack.  Sounds like a great design philosophy for a game where attacking is the main purpose.

Yeah, that's someone else's discussion when they're designing these games in predev, not mine. 

[Boyo]

7 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, that's someone else's discussion when they're designing these games in predev, not mine. 

Wait, wait, wait.  Let’s take it back to the comment that started this whole chain.

21 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

A completely circumstantial jump = totally valid reason as to why this is better than that. For real. Objectively. 

Was this not you commenting on how one design philosophy isn’t better than another because of these abilities?

[TheIcePrincess]

4 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Wait, wait, wait.  Let’s take it back to the comment that started this whole chain.

Was this not you commenting on how one design philosophy isn’t better than another because of these abilities?

Arguably? But not in the way you think, I feel. My point there being I'm not breaking down the design philosophy of the game as an argument. I'm just saying it's ridiculous to use a circumstantial jump to even half-heartedly unironically say one side is better. I'm not pitching advanced movement. Or debating its pros/cons in relation to other stuff, necessarily. Just that it's dumb to devalue it because of circumstance.

[Boyo]

Ok and here we are back at the beginning.  It’s not one circumstantial jump.  It’s the whole design philosophy behind why that jump is possible and why the player performing it can still attack while doing so.  You are commenting on design philosophies whether you realize it or not.

[TheIcePrincess]

1 minute ago, Boyo said:

Ok and here we are back at the beginning.  It’s not one circumstantial jump.  It’s the whole design philosophy on why that jump is possible and why the player performing it can still attack while doing so.  You are commenting on design philosophies whether you realize it or not.

Okay, it still doesn't really change my point. I ultimately don't care if I'm commenting on it or not. I only care about the point that the initial comment was still dumb in context. And with added context. 

[Boyo]

1 minute ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Okay, it still doesn't really change my point. I ultimately don't care if I'm commenting on it or not. I only care about the point that the initial comment was still dumb in context. And with added context. 

But you are dismissing the pros of classic movement.  That is you debating the pros and cons of advanced movement which you claim not to be doing.

[Boyo]

You tried to downplay and dismiss the pros of classic movement by saying one circumstantial jump doesn’t mean anything when in reality it means a great deal.  There is a huge difference between classic movement and advanced movement and that jump showed exactly what those differences were.  Do you understand this now?

[TheIcePrincess]

2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

But you are dismissing the pros of classic movement.  That is you debating the pros and cons of advanced movement which you claim not to be doing.

I'm not at all. I'm just saying advanced movement can't just be devalued because of movement and how it's performed alone when the mechanical skill behind both variants of Halo require their own skillsets. It's not debating pros and cons at all, because I'm making no true comparisons bar stating both are different, which isn't saying one or the other is good/bad. I'm even aware of my point earlier. With my first post being:

20 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Freedom is cool, and I'm not arguing against it inherently, but it's not a be all end all in determining skillful maneuvers. 

Which says nothing but the manner of movement (Omni vs. Adv) isn't what makes it skillful.

[Boyo]

Moving in any direction while shooting vs moving in one direction while not shooting.  Which sounds more skillful to you?