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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Lol yeah okay. H2/H3 had hosts that were impossible

If you read what I said, you would see that I said excluding host.

 

Even then though, I literally never once in my COUNTLESS hours and YEARS of playing H2 non-stop, unless it was a super laggy game or a foreign host, I NEVER ONCE felt "cheated". Or at least I never RECALL feeling that way. Or the way I do when I play CoD, or H3 sometimes

 

Also, I don't really care about H3. H3's netcode and registration has always been trash, whether OG or MCC (even though MCC is probably less consistent), on top of bullet spread and blood shots. Fixing H3 would definitely be nice, but I care way more about perfecting CE and H2 and making them as true to the original as possible (in all the best ways, of course).

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I don't play Halo 2 so the difference doesn't really affect my mcc fun but I'm quite surprised you guys who do can't or won't band together and create something that explains and shows the difference.

I'd love to see someone do this for Halo 3 too - I hear so many people say Halo 3 in MCC plays nothing like Xbox 360.

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You're right in the aspect that it doesn't mean Silent Hills isn't AAA, but when you are comparing AAA games (their sales/budgets) to others Silent Hills just doesn't meet the cut. MSG was in its second game in the franchise just like Silent Hill was.

 

The point is that Konami did nothing but sign its name over. They didn't provide funding or really do anything. The director got funding for the film, the name, and everything else. Had he not gotten the name behind it, it likely still would have released the film under a different name.

50 Million is also below average for movie funding, so I'm not sure thats a great point to make.

 

I would consider two of those to be on par with MCC. 3 if we count Silent Hills.

Its actually been pretty hard to find good sources for hard figures for sales on Silent Hill, I imagine it would be even harder to find budgets.

I would assume that gives sales figures though you could give a very rough estimate on how much would be spent on the next installment.

 

Both MGS 2 and Silent Hill 2 cost $10 million to produce so I think that pretty much settles this debate. Check out their Wikipedia articles to confirm.

 

Also your assertion that 50 million for a movie is below average is honestly just dead wrong. Compared to gigantic current superhero blockbusters, sure. But most mid 2000 widely distributed movies were produced for under 40 million. Most CURRENT comedies, Oscar bait and horror films cost less than 30 million. I have friends in the filmmaking industry who are killing themselves chasing investors for years just to secure 4 million dollars even when they have Hollywood producers, crews and actors committed to the film as proof that the film can be successful.

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“Halo 2 is not a good game”

Elaborate please...

 

The story jumps all over the place, the textures are rough, the lighting is drab, the gameplay is mechanical, the weapon balance is trash, the vehicles have the durability of nitroglycerin, and the whole thing feels clunky and unfinished. It's a massive slap in the face to Halo 1's polish, as well as other classic first-person shooters. The only reason it was popular was because it was the first online Halo. The only thing that gave the campaign replay value was the skulls, and I only ever had fun in multiplayer when I was holding a sword, sniper, rocket, or oddball.

 

But I'll give it this much - it worked on launch day.

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If they are considering fixing H3's atrocious netcode, they should take a look at this:

 

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014345/I-Shot-You-First-Networking

 

It explains how Reach's netcode was developed and he went into detail why H3's was so garbage. For example, the networking gave all the equipment (also inactive power drains on the floor) high priority because they were in the same category as grenades, which obviously have to be synced more accurately. I'm pretty sure ragdolls also played a role and that's why Reach didn't have them.

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I'd love to see someone do this for Halo 3 too - I hear so many people say Halo 3 in MCC plays nothing like Xbox 360.

Not even close. All the games not named H4 play like crap.
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Not even close. All the games not named H4 play like crap.

 

Whats different? ( I don't usually play halo 3)

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Wish they would just rewrite netcode for CE. Maybe kornman can patch the pc netcode enough to make it playable but seems like a long shot. In 2018 I would think we could get it semi close to off host lan.

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The story jumps all over the place, the textures are rough, the lighting is drab, the gameplay is mechanical, the weapon balance is trash, the vehicles have the durability of nitroglycerin, and the whole thing feels clunky and unfinished. It's a massive slap in the face to Halo 1's polish, as well as other classic first-person shooters. The only reason it was popular was because it was the first online Halo. The only thing that gave the campaign replay value was the skulls, and I only ever had fun in multiplayer when I was holding a sword, sniper, rocket, or oddball.

 

But I'll give it this much - it worked on launch day.

This is the most subjective list I’ve ever seen. Some of the reasons listed don’t even mean anything “gameplay is mechanical” what does that mean? H2’s themes are pretty focused with a healthy dose of character development, which is a rarity in the series. Visuals are completely subjective and is not a objective reason on whether a game is “good” or “bad”.

 

You can’t prove that the reason the game was popular because it was online. It has online capabilities, it’s built into the game and is a designed feature in the product. There’s no version of history that h2 launches without online. You can’t seperate the online from halo 2, it wouldn’t be halo 2 without it. It’s like saying Mario 64 is only popular because it was the first 3d Mario. It’s an impossible to prove statement. Speaking of online Halo 2 just so happened to basically invent console online gaming. From friends list to matchmaking it’s all there because of H2.

 

Halo 2 is a very popular speedrunning game, the speed running community have been replaying the campaign for over a decade mostly without skulls. And I can’t speak for your enjoyment of the multiplayer it has its issues but it’s far away from being a “bad game”. A “flawed” game is the best I can give you. Hyperbolic statements are fun but let’s keep it in the realm of sanity.

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This is the most subjective list I’ve ever seen. Some of the reasons listed don’t even mean anything “gameplay is mechanical” what does that mean? H2’s themes are pretty focused with a healthy dose of character development, which is a rarity in the series. Visuals are completely subjective and is not a objective reason on whether a game is “good” or “bad”.

 

You can’t prove that the reason the game was popular because it was online. It has online capabilities, it’s built into the game and is a designed feature in the product. There’s no version of history that h2 launches without online. You can’t seperate the online from halo 2, it wouldn’t be halo 2 without it. It’s like saying Mario 64 is only popular because it was the first 3d Mario. It’s an impossible to prove statement. Speaking of online Halo 2 just so happened to basically invent console online gaming. From friends list to matchmaking it’s all there because of H2.

 

Halo 2 is a very popular speedrunning game, the speed running community have been replaying the campaign for over a decade mostly without skulls. And I can’t speak for your enjoyment of the multiplayer it has its issues but it’s far away from being a “bad game”. A “flawed” game is the best I can give you. Hyperbolic statements are fun but let’s keep it in the realm of sanity.

 

Right, and the sandbox is actually totally fine too if you just throw out the trash weapons.

 

BR, PP, PR, Sniper, Rockets, Shotty and Sword for weapons

OS and Camo for powerups.

 

What more do you really need?  One of the problems with "modern halo" is that the desire for having a million things in the sandbox has just led to redundancy.  Its an illusion of variety, not real variety. And yeah, the button glitches were a happy accident but they still added depth to the weapons that we haven't seen since.

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I still hold to the theory that there should be a split between weapons that are viable in campaign and weapons that are more effective in multiplayer. Although I still like weapons like the sentinel beam in h2a sneaking in.

 

Campaign should be the place to experiment with crazy weapon ideas but the decision to also add them in multiplayer which needs some semblance of balance, holds the designers back.

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Not even close. All the games not named H4 play like crap.

I mean, you still haven't listed any differences between Halo 3 on 360 and MCC - that's what I'm asking for.

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I mean, you still haven't listed any differences between Halo 3 on 360 and MCC - that's what I'm asking for.

One huge difference is how far you have to lead/overall bullet speed. On MCC you have to lead like twice as much even if you are host.

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I don't play Halo 2 so the difference doesn't really affect my mcc fun but I'm quite surprised you guys who do can't or won't band together and create something that explains and shows the difference.

 

 

It's mind-blowing to me that this is the case. I guess I take for granted that we have people in our community willing to thoroughly test these issues instead of just going off memory or feel.

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Whats different? ( I don't usually play halo 3)

there's some less serious glitches that were later patched on 360. glitches like being able to get betrayed when you suicided so you could boot people on your team out you didnt like. but not anything serious that would affect a normal game

 

shot reg is definitely different but that's the only thing I notice.

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This is the most subjective list I’ve ever seen. Some of the reasons listed don’t even mean anything “gameplay is mechanical” what does that mean? H2’s themes are pretty focused with a healthy dose of character development, which is a rarity in the series. Visuals are completely subjective and is not a objective reason on whether a game is “good” or “bad”.

 

You can’t prove that the reason the game was popular because it was online. It has online capabilities, it’s built into the game and is a designed feature in the product. There’s no version of history that h2 launches without online. You can’t seperate the online from halo 2, it wouldn’t be halo 2 without it. It’s like saying Mario 64 is only popular because it was the first 3d Mario. It’s an impossible to prove statement. Speaking of online Halo 2 just so happened to basically invent console online gaming. From friends list to matchmaking it’s all there because of H2.

 

Halo 2 is a very popular speedrunning game, the speed running community have been replaying the campaign for over a decade mostly without skulls. And I can’t speak for your enjoyment of the multiplayer it has its issues but it’s far away from being a “bad game”. A “flawed” game is the best I can give you. Hyperbolic statements are fun but let’s keep it in the realm of sanity.

Unless you straight up say something like "this glitch ruins the game", most things will be subjective.

 

As for the speedrunning comment, and that I'm a bit confused by it. Is your point that speedrunning the game shows that there is replay value in the campaign? Outside of a few tools that a developer can give the speedrunning community, there's very little in terms of craftsmanship that they can do. Usually solid movement, rarely stopping the player, and not preventing them from moving beyond the "intended path" are three of the biggest things you can do outside of things like skippable cutscenes, an in game timer, and a few other "outside of game" features. Glitches in a game that help speedrunning might as well be random since who knows what'll be discovered.

 

The thing is, I would argue the points I mentioned above (other than the outside of game features) are also important for the game evolving as you improve, which is where more of your audience will land if they wish to replay a game compared to speedrunning. Halo 2 is primed for some of it, the movement is solid and there's a couple advanced techniques (specifically grenade jumps), the game from what I remember doesn't bind you to the path (I'm specifically thinking of the level Outskirts when I say this). But the game does everything in its power to slow you down at different points in the game. Speedrunning did fix this issue because they eventually found skips for a lot of it, but the amount of lifts you would stand and wait on even as an "advanced" player who doesn't know the speedrunning routes is incredibly frustrating. Anyway, due to the "slowing down" I don't know if I would say the game is great for "advanced" players in terms for replayability.

 

This does create an interesting question though, does your game need to be replayable? My first time playing Bioshock was incredible, I don't necessarily want to experience it again though and I don't feel like I need to. While I didn't like Halo 2's campaign very much, for people who did I don't know why they think it needs to be replayable.

 

I will note as well, I'm incredibly biased against being "slowed down". My favorite game of all time is Duke Nukem 3D, and I don't think the game ever slows you down for more than ten seconds, so even though the lifts may not be annoying to 99% of players, it kills me every time I step on one.

 

Everything else you said I'm fine with.

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For those who haven't played a ton of in-depth OG Halo 2 and Halo 2 Vista, here are the biggest differences as far as gameplay:

  • Trading, this is probably the most noticeable to people who played Halo 2 a decent amount. This wasn't a thing in OG Halo 2.
  • Melees in H2V are quite a bit harder to get; it's mainly the melees with the jumps that are significantly harder to land.
  • The shot registration. This was significantly more obvious once the hit registration patch for MCC came out. The fact that they even had to do that should tell you all they need to on that front.
  • Spawns. With what Hard Way said, it's actually pretty reproducable the issues with the spawning in Halo 2 Vista. Me and @@Stoppabl3 call this out every time it happens in Hardcore in particular because it mainly happens when you're jumping. The easiest way to observe this is on Warlock. If you're standing in the enemy's Flag (on CTF), and you keep jumping up and down in their spawn, there's a strong chance they will spawn right behind you or next to you in the flag. It's pretty abusable actually. We have a friend that likes just standing in the corner on Warlock, jumping up and down and back smacking people on spawn, it's pretty stupid lol.
  • Some weapons are a bit more viable and we've already established that (i.e. Carbine).
  • Obviously the super bounces are gone.

Those are the most glaring ones. Other than that, they're probably just small differences here and there.

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For those who haven't played a ton of in-depth OG Halo 2 and Halo 2 Vista, here are the biggest differences as far as gameplay:

  • Trading, this is probably the most noticeable to people who played Halo 2 a decent amount. This wasn't a thing in OG Halo 2.
  • Melees in H2V are quite a bit harder to get; it's mainly the melees with the jumps that are significantly harder to land.
  • The shot registration. This was significantly more obvious once the hit registration patch for MCC came out. The fact that they even had to do that should tell you all they need to on that front.
  • Spawns. With what Hard Way said, it's actually pretty reproducable the issues with the spawning in Halo 2 Vista. Me and @@Stoppabl3 call this out every time it happens in Hardcore in particular because it mainly happens when you're jumping. The easiest way to observe this is on Warlock. If you're standing in the enemy's Flag (on CTF), and you keep jumping up and down in their spawn, there's a strong chance they will spawn right behind you or next to you in the flag. It's pretty abusable actually. We have a friend that likes just standing in the corner on Warlock, jumping up and down and back smacking people on spawn, it's pretty stupid lol.
  • Some weapons are a bit more viable and we've already established that (i.e. Carbine).
  • Obviously the super bounces are gone.

Those are the most glaring ones. Other than that, they're probably just small differences here and there.

The jumping spawn thing happens in classic H2 as well. Never jumped bottom base on midship right above the spawn in an ffa? Killed half a team off spawn on middy jumping up and down with the sword as they spawn right in front of you in red or blue flag? Warlock flags too. Pretty sure you're just invisible to the spawn system if you jump

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Both MGS 2 and Silent Hill 2 cost $10 million to produce so I think that pretty much settles this debate. Check out their Wikipedia articles to confirm.

 

Also your assertion that 50 million for a movie is below average is honestly just dead wrong. Compared to gigantic current superhero blockbusters, sure. But most mid 2000 widely distributed movies were produced for under 40 million. Most CURRENT comedies, Oscar bait and horror films cost less than 30 million. I have friends in the filmmaking industry who are killing themselves chasing investors for years just to secure 4 million dollars even when they have Hollywood producers, crews and actors committed to the film as proof that the film can be successful.

7-10 million, but I'll give it to you. I could argue that while those 3 games were AAA, the series stopped producing the numbers and fell out of that budget range as time continued. Meaning the budget for this remaster definitely doesn't fit into the category of AAA. But we can just agree to disagree, there really is no point.

We're talking launch period (couple weeks, a month?), both games were broken buggy messes. I still consider MCC to be in the top 3 worst launches of gaming ever.

 

Average movie overall was 65 million (some sources say 60) in 2007.

Blockbusters were much higher, these are some from 2006.

Casino Royale - 150 Million

Pirates of the Caribbean: DMC - 225 Million

Da Vinci Code - 125 Million

 

But since I'm the only one actually looking up sources and not relying on what my friend says. Average horror movies were in the 30-40 millions. You're welcome.

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Pretty sure you're just invisible to the spawn system if you jump

^^

 

My personal opinion on the vista spawns is that it prioritizes team location over everything else more like hce 4v4 and doesn't use death locations as a negative influencer.

 

 

Also for some reason on games of midship flag/bomb, if you're in the enemy base, they'll spawn carbine side like 80% of the time.

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This is the most subjective list I’ve ever seen. Some of the reasons listed don’t even mean anything “gameplay is mechanical” what does that mean? H2’s themes are pretty focused with a healthy dose of character development, which is a rarity in the series. Visuals are completely subjective and is not a objective reason on whether a game is “good” or “bad”.

 

You can’t prove that the reason the game was popular because it was online. It has online capabilities, it’s built into the game and is a designed feature in the product. There’s no version of history that h2 launches without online. You can’t seperate the online from halo 2, it wouldn’t be halo 2 without it. It’s like saying Mario 64 is only popular because it was the first 3d Mario. It’s an impossible to prove statement. Speaking of online Halo 2 just so happened to basically invent console online gaming. From friends list to matchmaking it’s all there because of H2.

 

Halo 2 is a very popular speedrunning game, the speed running community have been replaying the campaign for over a decade mostly without skulls. And I can’t speak for your enjoyment of the multiplayer it has its issues but it’s far away from being a “bad game”. A “flawed” game is the best I can give you. Hyperbolic statements are fun but let’s keep it in the realm of sanity.

 

Gameplay is mechanical - situations tend to keep playing out the same. Take the same path through a level, use the same sniping point, use the same attack strategy. Noob combo is the most glaring example of "mechanical". Effective does not necessarily equal fun.

 

Character development and nice cutscenes don't excuse the tangled plot.

 

"Visuals are subjective" - not in this case. The textures are noticeably rougher than Halo 1, and the lighting is darker. Everything is less colourful and the delicate atmospherics have been replaced with garish bloom. Even ignoring Halo 1, the art style doesn't speak for itself very well. Flat, muddy, and haphazard describe it perfectly.

 

Without online play, does Halo 2 hold up to other classic first-person shooters without online play? Halo 1, GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Metroid Prime? Also, the one thing it pioneered, matchmaking, was a step backwards in my opinion. The prior standard, custom game browser, offers WAY more flexibility, and doesn't prevent ranked play (Rainbow Six 3 used Elo).

 

Speedrunning is niche. Halo 2 had a big tricking scene too, but that's not how most people used it. ALL of my criticisms are regarding its typical usage.

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Gameplay is mechanical - situations tend to keep playing out the same. Take the same path through a level, use the same sniping point, use the same attack strategy. Noob combo is the most glaring example of "mechanical". Effective does not necessarily equal fun.

 

Character development and nice cutscenes don't excuse the tangled plot.

 

"Visuals are subjective" - not in this case. The textures are noticeably rougher than Halo 1, and the lighting is darker. Everything is less colourful and the delicate atmospherics have been replaced with garish bloom. Even ignoring Halo 1, the art style doesn't speak for itself very well. Flat, muddy, and haphazard describe it perfectly.

 

Without online play, does Halo 2 hold up to other classic first-person shooters without online play? Halo 1, GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Metroid Prime? Also, the one thing it pioneered, matchmaking, was a step backwards in my opinion. The prior standard, custom game browser, offers WAY more flexibility, and doesn't prevent ranked play (Rainbow Six 3 used Elo).

 

Speedrunning is niche. Halo 2 had a big tricking scene too, but that's not how most people used it. ALL of my criticisms are regarding its typical usage.

I’ll never forget the growing sense of panic and ultimately disappointment as I searched through Halo 2’s menus for the first time, and came to the realization that, unlike every other game on XBL I had played prior to Halo 2, I could not host my own custom game for random players to join. I resented matchmaking for a long time because of that, especially with as bad as the gametypes were at launch (PR starts on Midship).

 

That said, I can’t respect a ranking system that doesn’t use matchmaking. The simple fact that you get to choose your opponents AND gametype/map renders a custom browser ranking system useless.

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Let's all pretend I'm in charge of this mcc update for a moment. I'm sitting here scratching my head wondering if all these posters are just making this stuff up. I mean why would somebody want to change the spawn system anyway? Should I tell this programmer to spend a bunch of time looking for some problem that might be there? Nah, I'll put him to work on halo 1 bugs. The halo 1 players have a nice website showing all the problems with video proof.

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Gameplay is mechanical - situations tend to keep playing out the same. Take the same path through a level, use the same sniping point, use the same attack strategy. Noob combo is the most glaring example of "mechanical". Effective does not necessarily equal fun.

 

Character development and nice cutscenes don't excuse the tangled plot.

 

"Visuals are subjective" - not in this case. The textures are noticeably rougher than Halo 1, and the lighting is darker. Everything is less colourful and the delicate atmospherics have been replaced with garish bloom. Even ignoring Halo 1, the art style doesn't speak for itself very well. Flat, muddy, and haphazard describe it perfectly.

 

Without online play, does Halo 2 hold up to other classic first-person shooters without online play? Halo 1, GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Metroid Prime? Also, the one thing it pioneered, matchmaking, was a step backwards in my opinion. The prior standard, custom game browser, offers WAY more flexibility, and doesn't prevent ranked play (Rainbow Six 3 used Elo).

 

Speedrunning is niche. Halo 2 had a big tricking scene too, but that's not how most people used it. ALL of my criticisms are regarding its typical usage.

I think H2 holds up as a LAN game. Especially for the time period since a lot of the stuff you listed was already pretty archaic by that time. It also fits into a niche that all of those miss which is 4v4. The game size thing is probably enough to say they aren't really games that should be compared in this way at all.

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