Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

[xxcloud7xx]

Shotgun is a power weapon no? Plasma rifle only used to wipe custom. But still could easily be done with the CE pistol and some nades.

The shotgun is pretty powerful in Halo 1 but it's not considered a power item in Halo 1. In Halo 1 people don't prioritize going out of their way to contest their opponent for control of the shotgun like they do for rockets, camo, and OS. The shotgun spawns every 30 seconds in Halo 1 and can easily be contested by the pistol so people treat the shotgun in Halo 1 more like a niche situational weapon.

 

Don't underestimate the plasma rifle in Halo 1. The plasma rifle in Halo 1 has a stun effect which allows players to circle strafe their opponent and get back smacks and melees. The plasma rifle in Halo 1 does extra damage to the head. The plasma rilfe in Halo 1 is a very good tool for shredding OS players.

 

I highly recommend for you to watch part one of @@Hard Way's Halo CE basics guide youtube series so you can get a better understanding of how Halo 1's weapon sandbox works.

NO it is not wrong. Go play hang em high and let’s see what the average weapon being used? Oh pistol rockets and snipe, same thing on derelict pistol and rockets and Shot gun. How about I you go watch the recent beach lan that was in August and tell me what weapons were used the whole game. Pistol & rockets.

The main reason why the plasma rifle and shotgun aren't used that often on Hang 'Em High is because it's an open air map. The plasma rifle and shotgun in Halo 1 are used more often on room based maps such as Chill Out and Exhibit because there are more opportunities for close range encounters to occur. The main reason why the plasma rifle and plasma pistol aren't used on Derelict is because the map doesn't even have those weapons on it.

[Riddler]

tbh his statement isn’t wrong. Sure CE has a selection of niche weapons. But if you were to compare the pistol time of use compared to the AR(both starting weapons)) you couldn’t even come close. Even in cqc positions it was all pistol. Only time the ar was ever used was when you ran out of ammo during a fight and had to pull a 2 piecer. If I’m wrong then answer me this. Are you, or any die hard CE player using other weapons(sniper doesn’t count) on the average? I would guess not. It was the only good weapon in the game besides power weapons. It was the only gun to use.

Let's compare the halo series.

 

halo 1: pistol, AR, sniper, and rockets on every map. PP and shotgun are used on chilly as they work quite well there. PP used on Creek often enough as well. DR too if we count that.  

 

halo2: BR, sniper, rockets, and sword on some maps. BR only on warlock. 2 for middy. 3 for sanc, lockout, and beaver creek. note only 1 map features rockets. no1 used the carbine

 

halo3: BR, sniper, rockets, and sword on some maps. br only on amplified and onslaught. 2 for heretic, guardian. 3 for pit, narrows, construct. no1 used the carbine

 

halo r. dmr, sniper, rockets, and GL on some maps. Some maps were dmr only. same as halo 2-3. no1 used the needle gun. 

 

halo 4. switch GL with rail gun. map variety is the same as 2-r.  no1 used the dmr. 

 

halo 5. pistol (br), rockets, sniper, ar (smg), plasma caster, hydra, fuel rod. cant recall if any map features 5 of them like for CE. I'll say plasma caster can be separated from smg/ar. 

 

So CE has the most variety of any halo game, bar halo 5. Halo 5 has more weapons total though no map features more than 4 of them, Ill just go ahead and say halo 5 and ce are tied. If you are debating weapon variety of CE vs halo 5, you can have a case for either side. But in the ninja's case, he definitely thinks of prime halo as halo3/reach so his comment about weapon variety makes no sense. He doesnt play ce and he just accepts the myth that the pistol was some OP gun in halo ce thanks to Frankie's comment that has turned into a meme. OH and comparing high level gameplay, nades in ce get the most kills out of any halo for sure. 

 

 

in every single halo game, the main gun is going to make up over 50% of the kills. The only exception to this is exactly in CE. Chill out can be a very pistol-light game. Rockets, snipe, PR, shotgun can easily be prevalent enough for the pistol not to be the majority of the kills. 10-20 kills is probably rockets, another 5-10 could be snipe/pr each, 5-10 for shotty/beatdown/ar, another 5-15 for nades... I would say pistol is the majority of the kills on chilly most of the time, but there are outliers. Derelict/damnation can be really rocket/sniper heavy in a slaughter where the other team can't get kills. DR is lots of sniper and rockets too, I can see pistol losing to snipe on that map very rarely. What other halo map in what other series do we not see dmr/br/pistol the most used gun? NONE. 

 

 

I'll reiterate this again. Since 2001, the main weapons in halo comp scene have been the primary rifle (pistol/br/dmr), sniper, and rockets. CE/h5 spiced this up a little bit. Like heck, I've seen 140 kill games on halo 3 onslaught, that's easily over 130 br kills for just one team! yeah @@Ninja tell me more about how other halo games have other guns but "the main gun"

[Ramirez77]

 

Tons of non-pistol kills.

Even some instances where they aren't even carrying a pistol.

Hell, even some AR useage.

[Teapot]

Looks like everyone already commented on it. The majority of Beach LAN footage hasn't even been uploaded. It was BL5 that McDick has some ridiculous 35+ kill game on Chill Out where 30 of those kills are with a Shotgun. Jeenyus as that footie.

 

There are actually quite a bit of games like that where the PR and Shotgun are used. I see people who played a bit of Halo CE that know about quick camo but don't utilize correctly or will keep their pistol with camo and rockets or camo and sniper.

 

I talked to Ninja very briefly down in Daytona. It was a awkward conversation. I said whats up and introduced myself as one of the Beach LAN guys but told him I also watch his stream. He asked what my twitch name was and I told him Teapot and he flat out told me "No I don't". He says he knows all his subs and all his followers and he's never seen my name in there. I laughed it off and told him ok whatever I've watched you plenty of times and asked if he wanted to come check out Halo CE and he just said no. I felt like there was a hidden camera there and I was on stream and this was an act, but it wasn't. I just said nice to meet you and went on my way. There were other people who were more supportive that were worth the time. There is a decent sized Destiny and LoL Streamer named N3ac3y that went to Beach LAN 6. He was the very first person to reach max level in Destiny. Apparently him and ninja are good friends and he went to Ninja's wedding. He even says he can't convince him about CE at all.

[Lukes]

I just chalk it up to him speaking before thinking which isn't anything new with him. My guess is he was talking about the game from the point of view of when he mainly played it as a kid with his brothers which was most likely a casual fest.

[Bonesaw]

Yeah literally every h1 weapon sees fairly extensive use, bar the needler. Even the plasma pistol would probably be used if it was on any maps besides Damnation. Also the AR is nothing to overlook as an actual attack weapon, not just for its utility as a quick camo or double melee tool. It melts shields super fast in the right range; it can be the right move if your partner already has their pistol on the enemy and you've just spawned.

 

The pistol is always a great weapon in every situation, but assuming adequate mechanical skills, it's never the BEST weapon.

[Riddler]

I watched a halo ce vod linked by ramirez77, and in the recommended vids clicked another. I watched it and was like, damn there's not many pistol kills in this. I only had to go 2 halo vids in to find a good example. 

 

 

These players were ranked later. http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/6963-halo-1-players-power-rankings-current/ jowns is #15, nistic #6. They are facing trix #21, and shade #7. So it's people of equal skill and damn near best in the world. 

 

I went back and counted the kills.

 

AR: 2

 

PR: 2

 

Rockets: 9

 

Snipe: 8

 

Nade: 7

 

Beatdown: 3

 

Pistol: 19

 

The pistol was still the majority of the kills (38%), but I would be damn near impressed if anyone could find me just 1 game of mlg halo2, halo3, or halo reach where the BR/dmr weren't 40% or more of the kills in a 50 kill slayer game. I'll buy you beyond premium if you do. 

[S0UL FLAME]

The pistol was still the majority of the kills (38%), but I would be damn near impressed if anyone could find me just 1 game of mlg halo2, halo3, or halo reach where the BR/dmr weren't 40% or more of the kills in a 50 kill slayer game. I'll buy you beyond premium if you do. 

 

 

Funnily enough, the only other Halo game that has as much variety in weapon usage for competitive settings is Halo 5.

 

It took them 2 years to nerf rifles and remove autos, but you essentially have the same kind of niche weaponry, bar the overpowered weapons like the Light Rifle, Shotgun, and Plasma Pistol. BR is no longer a straight upgrade to the Magnum; it's now just a Burst Fire gun you can keep in your back pocket if you want an edge in headshot cleanups or two-shot melee. Carbine now has this weird aspect where it's only useful at the closest or the farthest of ranges with its spammy bullets peppering players. DMR is long range focus, and it doesn't kill as fast as Magnum anymore, but a player can utilize the two-shot melee if they're good at CQC aiming.

 

In its own weird little way, Halo 5 has managed to copy an aspect of the original game better than the others of the trilogy ever did. Makes you wonder if Halo 6 is gonna have something similar.

[CIutchy]

I really hope they fix mcc with this update, fortnite was holding me over but that got boring Pretty quick. I Really don't think anything can replace Halo for me.

[ABearInTheWoods]

I really hope they fix mcc with this update, fortnite was holding me over but that got boring Pretty quick. I Really don't think anything can replace Halo for me.

 

if the update even happens. 

[VinnyMendoza]

I'm pretty sure Ninja's only experience of CE is on MCC when The Yim and I pushed his shit in on stream and made him rage about how there's people who only play CE and are gods at it and nothing else (and we're not even like top 100 players in CE, lmao). Given that on the MCC version of CE the pistol and sniper and rocket are the only really viable weapons, then I can see why he'd have such a stupid opinion.

[VinnyMendoza]

CE is the only Halo game with insane player expression and versatility where GOAT players will try crazy shit like nade+cross-mapping with the shotgun and PR because they dropped their utility weapon. This supposed utility weapon that is soooo renowned for being OP and "Is the only useful gun in the game" (meanwhile his only experience is in Halo games where you simply do not drop your BR/DMR ever unless you have rarely come across two power weapons).

 

 

Tons of non-pistol kills.

Even some instances where they aren't even carrying a pistol.

Hell, even some AR useage.

 

Since other people are doing breakdowns, I watched this and counted pistol kills.

 

By my count there were only 25 pistol kills out of 99. Maybe add one or two that I didn't count because of teammates stealing a kill after the opponent was body-sniped once.

 

This is pretty remarkable considering players START with the pistol and have to go out of their way to pick up new weapons.

 

So we have dummy pros saying "Only the pistol is useful in CE", when GOAT CE players like Patch only use the pistol for 25% of their kills in some examples of closely contested matches.

 

 

lol.

[Antidope]

I really hope they fix mcc with this update, fortnite was holding me over but that got boring Pretty quick. I Really don't think anything can replace Halo for me.

Still banking on 343 to do the right thing? Nah bro.

[Supermelee24]

if the update even happens.

I’m sure it’ll happen. It’s been confirmed so they have to do an update but there’s no way knowing if it’ll fix shit. Even then! 343 has a track record of fixing one thing fucking up the other. A man comes over to fix a graphics card on a pc. He fixed it but now the processors fucked up.

[Supermelee24]

CE is the only Halo game with insane player expression and versatility where GOAT players will try crazy shit like nade+cross-mapping with the shotgun and PR because they dropped their utility weapon. This supposed utility weapon that is soooo renowned for being OP and "Is the only useful gun in the game" (meanwhile his only experience is in Halo games where you simply do not drop your BR/DMR ever unless you have rarely come across two power weapons).

 

 

Since other people are doing breakdowns, I watched this and counted pistol kills.

 

By my count there were only 25 pistol kills out of 99. Maybe add one or two that I didn't count because of teammates stealing a kill after the opponent was body-sniped once.

 

This is pretty remarkable considering players START with the pistol and have to go out of their way to pick up new weapons.

 

So we have dummy pros saying "Only the pistol is useful in CE", when GOAT CE players like Patch only use the pistol for 25% of their kills in some examples of closely contested matches.

 

 

lol.

this is the most cqc map ever. What about derelict and creak? Hecks you can play this map on h3 and kick hella ass without a br.

[Hard Way]

this is the most cqc map ever. What about derelict and creak? Hecks you can play this map on h3 and kick hella ass without a br.

Derelict has super long sight lines and you’re in danger off spawn immediately. There are no plasma weapons. The shotgun is in an area that you basically should never be. Even still, that map has tons of sniper and rocket kills.

 

Creek has a shitload of sniper, rocket, and PR use. There’s no shotgun or PP. Dude, just play the damn game. You’re wrong af.

[BigShow36]

this is the most cqc map ever. What about derelict and creak? Hecks you can play this map on h3 and kick hella ass without a br.

 

Even if the pistol was the only projectile weapon in Halo CE, there would still be more variety in the actual gameplay (which is what matters, not artificial window-dressing variety) than in any other Halo game. 

[Twisted M]

Even if the pistol was the only projectile weapon in Halo CE, there would still be more variety in the actual gameplay (which is what matters, not artificial window-dressing variety) than in any other Halo game.

Honestly...who gives a shit about weapon variety in Halo 1. We don't need 5 reskins of the pistol with different bullet mag, aim assist, and red reticle ranges like Halo 5. Everyone has the same gun, let the best man win. No one has an advantage because they walked 10 feet off spawn and happened to walk by an easier weapon.

 

Gameplay variety is what matters the most. More niche weapons that actually promote different playstyles is cool, but the weapons have to do different shit than just shoot bullets to do that.

 

The weapon variety across Halo games really doesn't differ. Halo 1 is better because it has a weapon that can counter a sniper across the map, 3 shot a rocket guy quick enough if he doesn't hit a rocket, kill people across the map, kill quick enough to play fast, etc.

 

Large weapon sandboxes suck because they aren't done correctly 90% of the time. Be careful what you wish for. Halo 1s core gameplay is better than any weapon variety and the answer to "halo 1 is just pistol" is who fricken cares. People will always bitch about Halo 1 because its hard and punishes you. Stop fooling yourselfs, Halo 1 really isn't more weapon diverse than other Halos, but dozens of other things make it better.

[VinnyMendoza]

It is more weapon diverse in the sense that more than 3 guns are extremely useful across a ton of situations.

Then you have the pistol which is really difficult to use but able to contest those other powerful weapons in all situations about equally well. It's the most perfectly balanced weapon sandbox in the Halo series in terms of usefulness and skill requirement and I'm sick of dumb Halo fans saying otherwise.

 

Like you said, it offers more varied gameplay variety too. The plasma stunning alone is way, WAY more interesting than any Covenant gun in any Halo game since which are basically alien versions of human weapons, outside of the sword/hammer. I'm still completely dumbfounded as to why Bungie and 343 refuse to go back to this.

 

 

this is the most cqc map ever. What about derelict and creak? Hecks you can play this map on h3 and kick hella ass without a br.

 

Creek has heavy PR, sniper and rocket usage.

 

Damnation is the same plus shotgun.

 

Hang Em and Derelict are pistol heavy. Hardly anyone plays Derelict though. And in Hang Em, smart naders will constantly nade the sniper and rockets, and use shotguns from time to time as well.

 

Prisoner is mostly pistol, sniper and rocket but you have some PR in there too.

So out of the 5-6 main maps the pistol is only heavily used on a couple.

[Gobias]

The plasma stunning alone is way, WAY more interesting than any Covenant gun in any Halo game since which are basically alien versions of human weapons, outside of the sword/hammer. I'm still completely dumbfounded as to why Bungie and 343 refuse to go back to this.

 

I’m paraphrasing here, but in a GDC talk some Bungie designer essentially said it didn’t feel like Halo.

 

But melee lunge, that definitely feels like Halo

[BigShow36]

Honestly...who gives a shit about weapon variety in Halo 1. We don't need 5 reskins of the pistol with different bullet mag, aim assist, and red reticle ranges like Halo 5. Everyone has the same gun, let the best man win. No one has an advantage because they walked 10 feet off spawn and happened to walk by an easier weapon.

 

Gameplay variety is what matters the most. More niche weapons that actually promote different playstyles is cool, but the weapons have to do different shit than just shoot bullets to do that.

 

The weapon variety across Halo games really doesn't differ. Halo 1 is better because it has a weapon that can counter a sniper across the map, 3 shot a rocket guy quick enough if he doesn't hit a rocket, kill people across the map, kill quick enough to play fast, etc.

 

Large weapon sandboxes suck because they aren't done correctly 90% of the time. Be careful what you wish for. Halo 1s core gameplay is better than any weapon variety and the answer to "halo 1 is just pistol" is who fricken cares. People will always bitch about Halo 1 because its hard and punishes you. Stop fooling yourselfs, Halo 1 really isn't more weapon diverse than other Halos, but dozens of other things make it better.

 

The pistol allows the player to dictate how they play rather than the weapon they are holding. No other Halo game can say that. 

[Sebastian]

Honestly...who gives a shit about weapon variety in Halo 1. We don't need 5 reskins of the pistol with different bullet mag, aim assist, and red reticle ranges like Halo 5. Everyone has the same gun, let the best man win. No one has an advantage because they walked 10 feet off spawn and happened to walk by an easier weapon.

 

Gameplay variety is what matters the most. More niche weapons that actually promote different playstyles is cool, but the weapons have to do different shit than just shoot bullets to do that.

 

The weapon variety across Halo games really doesn't differ. Halo 1 is better because it has a weapon that can counter a sniper across the map, 3 shot a rocket guy quick enough if he doesn't hit a rocket, kill people across the map, kill quick enough to play fast, etc.

 

Large weapon sandboxes suck because they aren't done correctly 90% of the time. Be careful what you wish for. Halo 1s core gameplay is better than any weapon variety and the answer to "halo 1 is just pistol" is who fricken cares. People will always bitch about Halo 1 because its hard and punishes you. Stop fooling yourselfs, Halo 1 really isn't more weapon diverse than other Halos, but dozens of other things make it better.

 

This is the correct answer. Who's still wasting words trying to defend the fact that H1 is GOAT? You know it, I know it, and at this point, anybody who matters knows it. Just love the game and don't let ignoramuses muddy the water.

 

 

As an aside, one of the big issues with eSports is that there will always be another game with better graphics or the shiniest new whatever. The turnover in gameplay and look and feel is insanely high. Compare it to a real sport - nobody is considering upgrading to the latest and greatest version of Soccer. H:CE is a beautiful, perfect game that doesn't need to be changed. It now looks so old that it doesn't even look "old", it just looks simple and clean. This is a good thing - H1 is much farther down the road of becoming a time-honored sport than most other games (Quake, Starcraft and CS are the others I'd think of that are going that way). I'd say the only thing it really _needs_ is a consistent way to play it that is actually future-proof. OG xboxes won't be around forever. MCC is a temporary holdover but obviously has other problems. But besides that issue, just keep loving the game and don't let people tell you different. Focus on the people who _do_ get it and encourage them to get more into the scene, rather than trying to convert the unconvertible who are just going to play the next big shiny thing anyway.

[MATCLAN]

Another thing about the H1 sandbox that I don't think has been mentioned recently is that Camo and OS are pretty much ubiquitous relative to later games.

Just by being more inclusive of powerups the game encourages situations where players are in conflict over them, situations where players have to adjust their gameplay (including weapon choice) to best make use of or counter the powerups, and more opportunities for momentum to pivot.

[Teapot]

OG xboxes won't be around forever.

 

 

Just host a LAN with 12 broken xboxes and invite @@Devilman. in 2 hours he'll have them fixed, take the faulty capacitors out and apply new thermal paste. 

[Landonio]

7:50

 

I mean, are you really surprised he said something like that though.

 

At least he said he wouldn't be opposed to adding button combos.