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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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TIL Only stupid people who don't think play slayer. Wow.

The argument is that people are selfish and lazy, not stupid. Which can be true. It's the easiest game type to not give a shit what your teammates are doing. You can hang them out to dry and still feel good about yourself. The goal is to die less which is shallow and boring.

 

I am fully aware that all of this is opinion. Don't @. But of all the things I clearly recognize as opinion, not fact, the fact that people don't agree with this legitimately bothers me.

 

I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that Slayer isn't going anywhere, but can we please for the love of God play it less per series and weight it less in mixed mode playlists?

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All I know is that the smoothest matches I've ever played in Halo (MCC launch day and Halo 5 beta) were on dedicated servers. Also, the reason given for Halo Anniversary not having multiplayer was that P2P would've changed the gameplay too much. and MCC's promised dedicated servers were going to be the solution.

 

Remember, Halo's dedicated servers are using Microsoft's regional Azure infrastructure - seriously high-grade stuff.

 

How do you know they were on dedi's?  Unless you bridged connection with your PC and hooked up wireshark or something, there is no way to actually know that you were playing those matches on dedi's.  Even that method just allows you to make a "better guess" but isn't a guarantee.

 

And yeah, azure is enterprise-grade stuff and even though its a fair assumption to make that azure datacenters are used, its not a guarantee (though i admit its unlikely they are using some other infrastructure given they are a microsoft first party studio).

 

Number of hops to the datacenter and line quality are the 2 most important factors to a good connection.  There simply aren't enough Azure datacenters around the globe to guarantee that both of those criteria are met for a lot of players.  I happen to be lucky enough to live in the East US and have low ping (< 80ms) to 6 different Azure clusters so for me and most people in the continental US, Dedicated servers are better.  But for a lot of people around the globe or people that have to pass their connection through shitty ISPs, p2p would actually give them a better experience.

 

The Ideal best system would be a hybrid system that uses both.  One that can find you a fair match based on your preferred criteria (connection vs. skill, etc) using dedi's or p2p.  Unfortunately a system like that would need to really be architected and tested perfectly.

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I don't think the argument is that Slayer is for stupid people. The overarching point is that the objective and playing of the mode is more simple that most obj modes. Someone mentioned the main point about why it will more than likely remain a playlist in titles (especially on console) forever, and that's precedenct. We're at the point where a huge number of players identify deathmatch modes with shooters and look for that as soon as they boot the game up.

 

I would venture to say that people who have this mindset aren't going into deathmatch modes with a mindset of winning, ranking up, getting better, etc. They're wanting to shoot other people and get kills, which is fine, it's just different than the mindset we share here.

 

As far as having it as a mode in HCS, it can be useful because there players see a Slayer game going on and identify with it. Now, is it the best mode or most entertaining to watch? No. Could it be improved? Yes, vastly.

 

To bring it full circle as Slayer relates to the MCC, it has been the most popular playlist through all the junk and brokeness of that game. It would be pretty crazy to remove it once the update comes out if we're wanting the game to be populated.

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To bring it full circle as Slayer relates to the MCC, it has been the most popular playlist through all the junk and brokeness of that game. It would be pretty crazy to remove it once the update comes out if we're wanting the game to be populated.

It's popular because it's at the top of the list and because it doesn't have H4 in it. It's also the only way to play Ce 4v4s after 343 removed the CE 4v4 playlist (thanks again for that 343).

 

Let's not kid ourselves that the bias for playing the playlist on top is absolutely massive. This holds true across many games and genres even.

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It's popular because it's at the top of the list and because it doesn't have H4 in it. It's also the only way to play Ce 4v4s after 343 removed the CE 4v4 playlist (thanks again for that 343).

 

Let's not kid ourselves that the bias for playing the playlist on top is absolutely massive. This holds true across many games and genres even.

 

H4 isn't in it? Wow, that shows how long it's been since I played Slayer on MCC.

 

This is entirely anecdotal, but from speaking to friends that aren't in the comp scenes, they always speak of deathmatches, how many kills/kill streaks they dropped. The only time I hear thoughtful discussion on map strats, comp integrity, or things of the like is on here or with select people I play games with.

 

I'm not saying there's a definitive approach to slayer or playlist management, just that I think we should think of the overall game's health in regards to everyone.

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This is entirely anecdotal, but from speaking to friends that aren't in the comp scenes, they always speak of deathmatches, how many kills/kill streaks they dropped. The only time I hear thoughtful discussion on map strats, comp integrity, or things of the like is on here or with select people I play games with.

 

I'm not saying there's a definitive approach to slayer or playlist management, just that I think we should think of the overall game's health in regards to everyone.

 

Exactly. People who don't take competitive shooters seriously are all about selfish stats in no-think game modes. That's fine. No one is suggesting that any shooter shouldn't have DM/Slayer. It's just shit for ranked and tournament play and no one seems to have any real argument to the contrary. What those people, who again mostly do not care about or watch competitive gameplay, want (if they even do want it, since Slayer/DM is what these people probably play in their free time when they don't want to think) shouldn't have any relevance to what is played in tournaments.

 

Slayer should be a social playlist and it sure as hell shouldn't be both the majority of the game types per tournament series and the DECIDING game type in every series like it is in Halo 5 now. The notion that random casuals are somehow going to be more interested in watching because pros/amateurs are just shooting each other as opposed to shooting each other and playing the objective is nonsensical.

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Exactly. People who don't take competitive shooters seriously are all about selfish stats in no-think game modes. That's fine. No one is suggesting that any shooter shouldn't have DM/Slayer. It's just shit for ranked and tournament play and no one seems to have any real argument to the contrary. What those people, who again mostly do not care about or watch competitive gameplay, want (if they even do want it, since Slayer/DM is what these people probably play in their free time when they don't want to think) shouldn't have any relevance to what is played in tournaments.

 

Slayer should be a social playlist and it sure as hell shouldn't be both the majority of the game types per tournament series and the DECIDING game type in every series like it is in Halo 5 now. The notion that random casuals are somehow going to be more interested in watching because pros/amateurs are just shooting each other as opposed to shooting each other and playing the objective is nonsensical.

 

It def shouldn't be the majority of modes, and it absolutely shouldn't be the last mode of a series. I can't stand that

 

I do know that even in my small town, a lot of people and kids were talking about Halo when it was on the X-Games and then talking about how well they play it. Granted, that has absolutely nothing to do with the Slayer discussion this thread has going, but it begs the question of what game modes these types of players would identify watching. I think we should consider that watching a game mode you're familiar with is more enjoyable than one you aren't familiar with. Even for someone like me that is well versed in shooter mechanics/modes, I don't find Overwatch as enjoyable to watch as say Halo/Gears/CoD because I'm not as familiar with their modes.

 

That isn't a strong argument for Slayer, and I'm not even arguing that Slayer is a good comp mode at it's core. I'm approaching it through the lens of wanting to grow the scene.

 

For argument's sake, what do you feel are the drawbacks of Slayer? Why do you think it shouldn't be in comp?

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TIL Only stupid people who don't think play slayer. Wow.

Ok, you explain it's popularity then. Good luck not using the phrase "less to think about". What words would you use to describe a group of people that will be damned if their playlist of exclusively the simplest gametype gets sullied by filthy objective gametypes, in an effort to find those gametypes a home in a dwindling population?

 

Remember the situation here. Low population. No way to play 4v4 social obj. We know a social skirmish couldn't stand on it's own (for reasons that will forever elude me). But here we have a nice chunk of the population sitting comfortably in the TS playlist. It's population could support social obj if it took them in. But a large number of people would freak the fuck out if they ever had to play an obj, and would rather it be impossible to play, so long as they can keep playing the simplest gametype exclusively. I don't like, respect, or understand that way of thinking. It seems selfish and lazy to me.

 

The TS playlist came about initially as a way to bypass Bungie's horrendous obj modes. With the right settings (NOT Bungie's God awful settings), obj deserves to share the spotlight. I think a social and ranked 4v4 playlist that includes all standard gametypes should be the standard in all Halo games going forward, and TS should be a rotational ranked playlist. And that opinion is based on principle. It's ignoring the TS playlist's popularity in an attempt to achieve something better.

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It feels like this discussion boils down to the casual vs competitive mentality. Similar to the use of the AR in arena modes.

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i think it's pretty bizarre to call someone selfish (and stupid) for not enjoying the same things you do

 

It is kind of selfish when people refuse to play a playlist unless it is completely free of objective game types. This forces the devs to create Team Objective playlists, which always get removed because of low population. And why? Because people are too stubborn to give that it a chance too. So objective gets the shaft, even though objective has been better than Slayer since 2004.

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The reason objective on its own fails compared to slayer is simple. Slayer is the easiest thing to play solo queue and when there's no communication. Most people don't play halo as a to4. Maybe back in h2 and h3 they Did, but certainly not now and in game chat is rare to non existant. The population of this game is already in the dumpster, ditch ranked team slayer and watch the arse completely fall out of this game.

 

In an ideal world we'd only need team arena, but I'm not solo queuing in the few moments I get when my baby is asleep so I can watch Johnny no thumbs refuse to go for/defend the flag. At least with team slayer everyone is on mostly the same page.

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I'm currently watching NFL and H2A tournaments on YouTube. I'm getting real excited about this MCC update. Please, bring me back to reality. Can't handle another letdown.

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I'm currently watching NFL and H2A tournaments on YouTube. I'm getting real excited about this MCC update. Please, bring me back to reality. Can't handle another letdown.

I'm just ready for playlist consolidation/tuning.

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The argument is that people are selfish and lazy, not stupid.

 

 

I'm just upset that the idea of a 4v4 Team Slayer only playlist is even popular to begin with. I wish the average player was smarter than that. 

 

Oh.

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I love how he says "trust us, we care" but this radio silence has been going on for two years. No word why MCC was being left to die, hell not even a playlist update and they had no excuse for that as they had previously updated the playlists to remove the CE playlist and add H3 Grifball.

 

Yeah good that he finally delivered, but why not post this two years prior?

 

I feel like it's likely because most of the issues were platform related and you can't just come out and say, "Well, we want to make this game but the current Xbox platform isn't conducive to easily developing it, sooo..." Then they made a bunch of assumptions regarding how they could make it work and failed. 

 

Now that they have a solution they can present it in a mostly positive way and talk about the future. 

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I feel like it's likely because most of the issues were platform related and you can't just come out and say, "Well, we want to make this game but the current Xbox platform isn't conducive to easily developing it, sooo..." Then they made a bunch of assumptions regarding how they could make it work and failed. 

 

Now that they have a solution they can present it in a mostly positive way and talk about the future. 

 

They still should have come out and said, well, anything on the issue. I mean people already assumed that the code was such a jumbled mess that 343 was afraid to further patch the game, but 343 themselves should have said all this two years ago. Ghosting the community while millions of players are still having issues is quite possibly the worst thing they could have done.

It's also oddly convenient that they can change playlists if they want to remove CE 4v4 or odd H3 Hardcore settings and Grifball, but when people ask if 343 could remove SMG and AR start objective gametypes or fix the weighing of certain maps/gametypes it's back to radio silence. Their hands were tied in regards to game patches, but they could have updated the playlists for sure.

 

Then add on top that the exact same company, while not talking about MCC for two years straight was releasing their next game that again was controversial in terms of gameplay and narrative plus it included a scummy microtransaction scheme and a terrible "free DLC" model and you have the perfect PR disaster. As I said, I'm happy that they want to improve their community interaction, but they have a long way to go. Their reputation is absolutely horrible right now and rightly so in my opinion.

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The reason objective on its own fails compared to slayer is simple. Slayer is the easiest thing to play solo queue and when there's no communication. Most people don't play halo as a to4. Maybe back in h2 and h3 they Did, but certainly not now and in game chat is rare to non existant. The population of this game is already in the dumpster, ditch ranked team slayer and watch the arse completely fall out of this game.

 

In an ideal world we'd only need team arena, but I'm not solo queuing in the few moments I get when my baby is asleep so I can watch Johnny no thumbs refuse to go for/defend the flag. At least with team slayer everyone is on mostly the same page.

 

This argument doesn't hold up. If you want to play a social game type where you can shut off your brain and just slay, objective modes are better in every way. Why? Because you can ignore the objective while Johnny No Thumbs walks in a straight line towards the enemy base. Why the hell do you care if your team is coordinated in that context?  If anything, solo queue slayer, particularly with dynamic spawns, is more obnoxious with uncoordinated MM teams, because the spawns become a mess AND your teams mates charging off in random directions give the enemy team points.

​And none of this really addresses the larger issues of Slayer having a dedicated RANKED playlist for no coherent reason (what you're describing is a social/casual experience), slayer being in literally EVERY FUCKING PLAYLIST including its dedicated playlist, and slayer not only being in tournaments but being the majority of games played and the deciding game type. This is a consistent issue for Halo and it continues in MCC and Halo 5.

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I understand his argument. People that want to just worry about kills don't think along the lines of getting kills in another game mode. Someone looking for kills doesn't want to deal with any obj play, at all. It's the stigma attached to objs in modern gaming, sadly.

 

Having Slayer ranked is baffling. I wish Halo would move to one ranked playlist, that way it not consolidates playlists, but makes rank more meaningful.

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i think it's pretty bizarre to call someone selfish (and stupid) for not enjoying the same things you do

If you are of the opinion that social obj should essentially not exist and their fans be unable to play them socially, just so that they don't ever interfere with you playing the simplest gametype in the game, then choose your own adjectives. I tried.

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I understand his argument. People that want to just worry about kills don't think along the lines of getting kills in another game mode. Someone looking for kills doesn't want to deal with any obj play, at all. It's the stigma attached to objs in modern gaming, sadly.

 

Having Slayer ranked is baffling. I wish Halo would move to one ranked playlist, that way it not consolidates playlists, but makes rank more meaningful.

You know how you solve this shit? Make winning matter. STOP glorifying selfish statistics like K/D. K/D shouldn't even show up in an in-game career stats page, but instead have it feature W/L. Start giving players incentive to play for the win instead of the stats, like H3's playlist XP system.

 

If you remove players' statsturbating shrine to themselves and take away their means to show it off to others, that playstyle will lose its value. Replace those statistics with W/L, damage/min, and other "pure" stats and suddenly we're in business.

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You know how you solve this shit? Make winning matter. STOP glorifying selfish statistics like K/D. K/D shouldn't even show up in an in-game career stats page, but instead have it feature W/L. Start giving players incentive to play for the win instead of the stats, like H3's playlist XP system.

 

If you remove players' statsturbating shrine to themselves and take away their means to show it off to others, that playstyle will lose its value. Replace those statistics with W/L, damage/min, and other "pure" stats and suddenly we're in business.

 

Couldn't agree more. I've always held this opinion. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I told people in game that all that matters is the win/loss, and making the correct play. So many people get wrapped up in their K/D that they hit start in match to see their stats.

 

I may be remembering the original trilogy days differently than they actually were, but I rarely remember people talking about their stats then. Rank was what mattered.

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This argument doesn't hold up. If you want to play a social game type where you can shut off your brain and just slay, objective modes are better in every way. Why? Because you can ignore the objective while Johnny No Thumbs walks in a straight line towards the enemy base. Why the hell do you care if your team is coordinated in that context? If anything, solo queue slayer, particularly with dynamic spawns, is more obnoxious with uncoordinated MM teams, because the spawns become a mess AND your teams mates charging off in random directions give the enemy team points.

​And none of this really addresses the larger issues of Slayer having a dedicated RANKED playlist for no coherent reason (what you're describing is a social/casual experience), slayer being in literally EVERY FUCKING PLAYLIST including its dedicated playlist, and slayer not only being in tournaments but being the majority of games played and the deciding game type. This is a consistent issue for Halo and it continues in MCC and Halo 5.

It has a ranked playlist because people want it to have a ranked playlist. Certainly more than want a hardcore/mlg/hcs playlist. It has been consistently the most played gametype/playlist in all of halo for 13 years. But let's delete the thing that most people play and enjoy to cater to a minority crowd who have their own playlist despite it having god awful player retention and has done for 13 years.

 

Deleting it would be fucking stupid.

Could it be played less at a competitive level? Yes. Certainly the maps it's played it should be considered more. But since when has the comp scene depended on what matchmaking is doing? What do you give 2 shits if people only want to play slayer for ranks and don't want to play objectives? They very clearly have made that choice. Maybe if the comp scene wasn't dictated by 343 we could have a competitive playlist that featured a reasonable maplist/gametype set instead of being a total shitshow, But we don't, So that's just how it is.

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