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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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You don't think people will play whatever playlist is called Team Slayer?  Really?  If you took out all the SMG/AR starts and made it its own playlist called "AR Slayer", or in Reach's case "Full Bloom Slayer" and put it 8 slots down from the top, do you think it'd keep it's population?  Do you think the masses would leave the Team Slayer playlist, track down their beloved AR starts, radar and bloom in the AR Slayer playlist 8 slots down from the top, and suddenly populate that? If you do, you're high.  They will play whatever they think is the standard.  Larry's anecdote about the ZB  TU Slayer playlist is exactly what I'm talking about.  They don't read.  They don't explore. They just play whatever is deemed the standard.

 

How is Super Slayer not a good example?  Its like the perfect example!  The playlists were incredibly similar.  I think the only differences were the TU changes (85% bloom), a few different forge maps, and no armor lock.  If those playlists traded places but the names stayed the same, the populations wouldn't fucking budge.  I'd bet a thousand dollars.

 

And "to validate my point I'd actually have to create my ideal Team Slayer playlist and put it at the top to see what happens"...well, I'd love to do that, but obviously I can't. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it.

 

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I played Honeycomb for the first time last night.  It really grew on me over the course of the game.  The lifts are really clunky though.

Its alright for pubstombing on but that map would turn into a pretty bad shit fest if two decent teams played each other.  The 4 turrets in the middle is the best part about that map lol

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WHAT??? You really don't get that concept? Dominion wasn't fun even though I could stomp on the other team once I had control of a base. It was BORING. Why on earth would you be involved in an adult conversation and not understand this simple concept? The fact that you were posting here made me assume you were better than that.

 

 

I'm blown away that I wasted any time discussing this with you.

You grasping at straws with that. No one was talking about fundamentally broken game types.

 

Calm 'em.

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Hey I liked Dominion...

It was fun and interesting but broken. There were way too many incentives to camp bases. Also the resupplys were frequent but random (You could get either Rockets every 45 seconds or DMR's), making the bases very campable, although they did fix that later on.

 

The bases also had shields and turrets, which while interesting made them very easy to defend.

 

Also, beyond the initial set of power weapons (which never respawned), there were no weapons on map at all, promoting camping even more. Scoring was also weird

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It was fun and interesting but broken. There were way too many incentives to camp bases. Also the resupplys were frequent but random (You could get either Rockets every 45 seconds or DMR's), making the bases very campable, although they did fix that later on.

 

The bases also had shields and turrets, which while interesting made them very easy to defend.

 

Also, beyond the initial set of power weapons (which never respawned), there were no weapons on map at all, promoting camping even more. Scoring was also weird

 

I hated it when power weapons came down in the resupplies, but after they changed that, I had a blast with it.  I had some super close games of it.  The shields and turrets were pretty weak and didn't make much of a difference by themselves.  The only thing I didn't like was the paralysis you experienced trying to cancel a conversion.

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I hated it when power weapons came down in the resupplies, but after they changed that, I had a blast with it. I had some super close games of it. The shields and turrets were pretty weak and didn't make much of a difference by themselves. The only thing I didn't like was the paralysis you experienced trying to cancel a conversion.

The problem with the shields was that they blocked long range sightlines and regenerated really quickly, so you couldn't shoot campers and had to walk straight into a Shotgun/Rocket/Grenade/Concussion Rifle/etc

 

Kinda like Snowbound but with more power weapons

 

Edit: The turrets annoyed me because they slowed down your Sprint speed quite a bit and took nearly half a clip to take out. They also were automatic targetting and firing, so that along with radar meant it was impossible to sneak up on a base

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You grasping at straws with that. No one was talking about fundamentally broken game types.

 

Calm 'em.

 

 

 

 

the principle is the same whether dominion or any other game type. but you knew that.

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New players THINK that the radar helps them find people. All it actually does is show skilled players where they are. If there are any maps with verticality radar is the worst possible thing for a team trying to get top control. Just look at Construct with radars. One of the worst experiences of all time once a team gets top control.

 

It's not exactly hard to counter this you know ..

 

Way 1: 

 

Step 1. Go to one of the purple lifts, and watch all the red dots follow you. 

 

Step 2. Run as fast as you can to the other lift, and go up it. 

 

Step 3. You are getting there first because it's faster going bottom and up the lift than going from lift open to lift closed for example, and vice versa. 

 

 

Way 2: 

 

Step 1. Go to any lift of your choice. Watch the red dots on the radar follow you. 

 

Step 2. Crouch. Watch the red dots turn into question marks, and either disappear from your radar by crouching themselves or, watch them walk out of your radar. 

 

Step 3. Pick the lift where there most likely aren't anyone. 

 

 

Way 3:

 

Step 1: Pick up the missil pod. 

 

Step 2: Go wherever you think you have the best chance at killing as many as possible without dying. 

 

Step 3: Jump up the lift, and kill them with a 1-shot weapon. If done right opens up a passage for teammates.

 

 

Way 4: 

 

Step 1. Go up the ramp where the sword is. In most games you'll get up there without any trouble as the enemy team is most likely watching the lifts.

 

Step 2. Watch the enemies come to you, opening a path on one of the lifts, or get up there without trouble. 

 

 

I mostly play doubles, and it's definitely not a problem there. 

 

At most you are only 4 players on construct, thus you can't hold all the lifts all the time. 
 
I personally don't like using the Laser but there are some players that can just pick off anyone with it, it's just scary. 
 
Plus, you'll have a double Mauler against the anyone. Double Mauler over any close combat weapon in Halo 3. 
 
You also have a Power Drain that could be very useful in many situations. 
 
The point is, you'll get up, if you know what you are doing. 
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It's not exactly hard to counter this you know ..

 

Way 1:

 

Step 1. Go to one of the purple lifts, and watch all the red dots follow you.

 

Step 2. Run as fast as you can to the other lift, and go up it.

 

Step 3. You are getting there first because it's faster going bottom and up the lift than going from lift open to lift closed for example, and vice versa.

 

 

Way 2:

 

Step 1. Go to any lift of your choice. Watch the red dots on the radar follow you.

 

Step 2. Crouch. Watch the red dots turn into question marks, and either disappear from your radar by crouching themselves or, watch them walk out of your radar.

 

Step 3. Pick the lift where there most likely aren't anyone.

 

 

Way 3:

 

Step 1: Pick up the missil pod.

 

Step 2: Go wherever you think you have the best chance at killing as many as possible without dying.

 

Step 3: Jump up the lift, and kill them with a 1-shot weapon. If done right opens up a passage for teammates.

 

 

Way 4:

 

Step 1. Go up the ramp where the sword is. In most games you'll get up there without any trouble as the enemy team is most likely watching the lifts.

 

Step 2. Watch the enemies come to you, opening a path on one of the lifts, or get up there without trouble.

 

 

I mostly play doubles, and it's definitely not a problem there.

 

At most you are only 4 players on construct, thus you can't hold all the lifts all the time.

 

I personally don't like using the Laser but there are some players that can just pick off anyone with it, it's just scary.

 

Plus, you'll have a double Mauler against the anyone. Double Mauler over any close combat weapon in Halo 3.

 

You also have a Power Drain that could be very useful in many situations.

 

The point is, you'll get up, if you know what you are doing.

Construct isn't a big map. It's very easy to lock down the top and it's even easier when there is a radar. Now I could go through all your reasons and say why each is pretty much untrue but I'm lazy. So I'll leave it with this:

 

Radar makes Construct the most unbalanced map imaginable. It is just insanely easy to maintain top control and there is nothing at bottom that can help you get up. Nothing. All you need is one person near each lift, a guy lobby/sword and a guy gold. Hell you could leave gold open and force them to go there is you wanted. Play competent players that have top control and try to take it away.

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Construct isn't a big map. It's very easy to lock down the top and it's even easier when there is a radar. Now I could go through all your reasons and say why each is pretty much untrue but I'm lazy. So I'll leave it with this:

 

Radar makes Construct the most unbalanced map imaginable. It is just insanely easy to maintain top control and there is nothing at bottom that can help you get up. Nothing. All you need is one person near each lift, a guy lobby/sword and a guy gold. Hell you could leave gold open and force them to go there is you wanted. Play competent players that have top control and try to take it away.

I just wrote 4 ways that makes it very manageable to get up. I must have 4-5k matches in team doubles, and 3-4k matches in TS. I have played enough teams to know it is isn't impossible to get up, but actually very possible.  

 

There may be some stalemates here and there, where you are just waiting it out for the perfect moment, but it certainly is possible. 

 

If you are just bum rushing up, like any kind of beginner, using no common sense, then you are making it very hard for yourself. 

 

I once tried to teach a beginner (A level 40) "to do the right thing", but in the end we hit a stop, because he didn't want to, because it would be boring, not bum rushing everyone at all times. 

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I just wrote 4 ways that makes it very manageable ways to get up. I must have 4-5k matches in team doubles, and 3-4k matches in TS. I have played enough teams to know it is isn't impossible to get up, but actually very possible.

Doubles is completely irrelevant. And just because you can wrote something down doesn't mean it's actually going to work. None of your "suggestions" guarantee any form of success. A missile pod will get you top control? Lol ok. You are writing down what the enemy team will do based on whatever assumption you have in your head. Your suggestions mean absolutely nothing. There are always ways to get back top control, that doesn't mean they work 100% of the time. Why do you think MLG added a camo/OS at bottom? Because it was too hard to regain top control. This is now stacked with a radar so that you can't sneak your way around, the enemy always knows where you are. There are very few ways to get up top, and 3 of them are lifts. If you think It's easy to regain top control on Construct WITH a radar you are just delusional.

 

And passive play, while helpful especially on Construct, doesn't fix the issue. If you are trapped at bottom you HAVE to get up. And there is no sneaky way to do it. You have to get lucky.

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Doubles is completely irrelevant. And just because you can wrote something down doesn't mean it's actually going to work. None of your "suggestions" guarantee any form of success. A missile pod will get you top control? Lol ok. You are writing down what the enemy team will do based on whatever assumption you have in your head. Your suggestions mean absolutely nothing. There are always ways to get back top control, that doesn't mean they work 100% of the time. Why do you think MLG added a camo/OS at bottom? Because it was too hard to regain top control. This is now stacked with a radar so that you can't sneak your way around, the enemy always knows where you are. There are very few ways to get up top, and 3 of them are lifts. If you think It's easy to regain top control on Construct WITH a radar you are just delusional.

A missile pod is a weapon that could help you get you top control, yes. What I wrote down I have done thousands of times, so I know that it can work. If you are a potato playing Halo nothing is going to gaurantee you success. 

 

Adding camo/os makes it more manageable and gives the map more flow surely and it also helps with the viewership (not making it boring to watch because you don't want stalemates), but it's still not hard to get back to top control, if that is what you want.

 

It just requires something most gamers don't have and what some people may consider boring, patience. 

 

If you need to stay down there for 30 seconds to wait for the perfect moment then so be it. Most people are just going to respawn, jump straight up the lift and die. 

 

If you think the normal Construct may be slow paced which it will be when you go up against a team that wants to win, then you are correct. It can very well be. 

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A missile pod is a weapon that could help you get you top control, yes. What I wrote down I have done thousands of times, so I know that it can work. If you are a potato playing Halo nothing is going to gaurantee you success.

 

Adding camo/os makes it more manageable and gives the map more flow surely and it also helps with the viewership (not making it boring to watch because you don't want stalemates), but it's still not hard to get back to top control.

 

It just requires something most gamers don't have and what some people may consider boring, patience.

Patience won't gain you top control. You still have to go up there which is the problem. Seriously if you can't accept that Construct TS with radar plays extremely poorly then you are just simply wrong. Fun is subjective I understand that, but whether a map plays poorly under certain conditions can be measured.
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Patience won't gain you top control. You still have to go up there which is the problem. Seriously if you can't accept that Construct TS with radar plays extremely poorly then you are just simply wrong. Fun is subjective I understand that, but whether a map plays poorly under certain conditions can be measured.

The point is that you are waiting for the right moment. You are waiting for the moment where you chances are higher. 

 

* For example when people start dropping down at you because nothing is happening.

 

People are going to move out of their positions. 

 

I never said that the gameplay that is required to win on Construct is what the majority wants. It definitely must be very boring to watch for example. 

 

I just said it's certainly possible to get back up. 

 

For example, if you want to capture the base that someone is in on Snowbound. If you have two people sitting in there with shotgun, and snipe, and with 5k exp it doubles, getting them out of there requires you to wait for the next sniper for example, and crouch from bottom shotgun and in to the base and then try to kill one of them. 

 

It's not hard but it requires "long and boring tactics". It's incredibly hard if you bum rush them everytime.  

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The point is that you are waiting for the right moment. You are waiting for the moment where you chances are higher.

 

* For example when people start dropping down at you because nothing is happening.

 

People are going to move out of their positions.

 

I never said that the gameplay that is required to win on Construct is what the majority wants.

 

I just said it's certainly possible to get back up.

How are you using people dropping down as an argument? Thy aren't going to drop, they have top control. Why is everything you mention about low level play? People aren't going to leave their position because they know they have map control. Why the hell would they drop? If the team is competent they will stay right up top and just wait for you. Sometimes they'll crouch to other lifts so when you think you're good, NOPE. You are downplaying top control on Construct wayyy too much.

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How are you using people dropping down as an argument? Thy aren't going to drop, they have top control. Why is everything you mention about low level play? People aren't going to leave their position because they know they have map control. Why the hell would they drop? If the team is competent they will stay right up top and just wait for you. Sometimes they'll crouch to other lifts so when you think you're good, NOPE. You are downplaying top control on Construct wayyy too much.

You certainly don't know how to play Normal Construct. 

 

If you have a sword, and a bubble shield, do you know how many kills that could gain you dropping down? You drop down, kill as many as you can, and go up the lift again. Most of the time, you don't even need a bubble shield. You drop down, kill with the sword, and go up. 

 

Another thing is to use the sniper. Sniping who ever is at bottom gold for example. 

 

I am just going to copy from my other post again, to give you another example: 

 

For example, if you want to capture the base that someone is in on Snowbound. If you have two people sitting in there with shotgun, and snipe, and with 5k exp it doubles, getting them out of there requires you to wait for the next sniper for example, and crouch from bottom shotgun and in to the base and then try to kill one of them. 

 

It's not hard but it requires "long and boring tactics". It's incredibly hard if you bum rush them everytime.  

 

I am not saying Construct is a good map or that you may think it's fun, but it's not hard to gain map control again. It just requires lots of patience and weird tactics. 

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You certainly don't know how to play Normal Construct.

 

If you have a sword, and a bubble shield, do you know how many kills that could gain you dropping down? You drop down, kill as many as you can, and go up the lift again. Most of the time, you don't even need a bubble shield. You drop down, kill with the sword, and go up.

 

Another thing is to use the sniper. Sniping who ever is at bottom gold for example.

 

I am just going to copy from my other post again, to give you another example:

 

 

For example, if you want to capture the base that someone is in on Snowbound. If you have two people sitting in there with shotgun, and snipe, and with 5k exp it doubles, getting them out of there requires you to wait for the next sniper for example, and crouch from bottom shotgun and in to the base and then try to kill one of them.

 

It's not hard but it requires "long and boring tactics". It's incredibly hard if you bum rush them everytime.

You are so off base my man this convo is pointless. If you can't see why Construct is bad with radar then I won't bother continuing it's just gonna go in circles.
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You are so off base my man this convo is pointless. If you can't see why Construct is bad with radar then I won't bother continuing it's just gonna go in circles.

I never said it's not bad, but it's not hard to get back up there again. 

 

I have told you countless times that the type of gameplay that is needed to gain top control again isn't preferred,

 

.. It's not fun to watch.

 

.. It may not be fun to play. 

 

but it's not hard. 

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Oh my God you are so delusional on this.

 

If we are going to start with attacks, you are obviously are terrible at the game. 

 

There is a difference between a preferred way of flow on the map, and being able to get control back. 

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If we are going to start with attacks, you are obviously are terrible at the game.

 

There is a difference between a preferred way of flow, and being able to get control back.

Yea IM the bad one because I understand how horribly Construct plays with radar. Construct is basically a 4v4 version of Derelict (with none of the redeeming aspects of CE). Now find a competitive CE player that thinks retaking control on Derelict is easy. It's not. And Construct is even worse ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS A RADAR. You can't go up the lift without appearing on it. I will always know where you are how can you not see this problem? You are seriously clueless thinking it's easy to retake. It's one of the most notoriously easy to control maps especially with a radar.

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Yea IM the bad one because I understand how horribly Construct plays with radar. Construct is basically a 4v4 version of Derelict (with none of the redeeming aspects of CE). Now find a competitive CE player that thinks retaking control on Derelict is easy. It's not. And Construct is even worse ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS A RADAR. You can't go up the lift without appearing on it. I will always know where you are how can you not see this problem? You are seriously clueless thinking it's easy to retake. It's one of the most notoriously easy to control maps especially with a radar.

 

t's obvious that you aren't a high level player if you have never used the (Sword + Bubble shield) combo to jump down on players or even the Missile Pod, or play TS, or even Halo 3. 

 

Derelict isn't the same. The games aren't the same. In CE you get weapons spawning every 30 seconds. 

 

In Halo 3 the weapons are spawning every 2-3 minutes. You have much more time. 

 

IT pays OFF much more to go into a stalemate (where you are just waiting), than it does in CE.

 

It could be a long and boring way to retake map control on Construct, but it's super possible.

 

What is much harder against a good team is to retake control on the Pit on AR starts for example. While on Construct you can just wait for a good opportunity to go up the lifts,  the score might stay 5-3 for a minute if you want to (because you have complete cover), but on The Pit you are going to get constantly bombarded with bullets possibly making the score 24-6, for example.  

 

Surely waiting for 1-minute is not good design, but that's how you sometimes have to play the map if you want to win. 

 

It's not hard the like Pit. On construct it just requires much patience, but on the Pit you don't really have anything to do that can prevent the enemy team from gaining kills and getting that lead. 

 

The Pit becomes much more bearable if you have BR starts though. 

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That one was done at 4:43 am whatever timezone apparently, try to find ones done at a peak day time maybe?

Find one that doesn't show a population somewhere in the 100,000s. I clicked on a whole bunch and 0 of them were above 200,000.

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Yea IM the bad one because I understand how horribly Construct plays with radar. Construct is basically a 4v4 version of Derelict (with none of the redeeming aspects of CE). Now find a competitive CE player that thinks retaking control on Derelict is easy. It's not. And Construct is even worse ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS A RADAR. You can't go up the lift without appearing on it. I will always know where you are how can you not see this problem? You are seriously clueless thinking it's easy to retake. It's one of the most notoriously easy to control maps especially with a radar.

Again, you're looking at this from a high level perspective. A level 20, getting back up on top is not hard for anyone. Even if it, it doesn't seem like they care much. Just look at the popularity of Swordbase in Reach. 

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