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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Hint: I wasnt talking about the AA

 

Even then, if you think camo AA and jetpack AA are even remotely on the same level, I can see why you are getting all bent out of shape.

 

Also, you still havent answered my question as to why people would not want to pick up a sniper which is atleast as deadly if not much more so than rockets.

 

Camo and jetpack AAs are both fucking terrible. Jetpack overall is bullshit. Either stop defending it or stop referring to yourself as a fan of competitive Halo.

 

To your second bit, because the sniper has a high skill gap and is most effective at long range. Get caught with the sniper out at close or mid range and you either have to switch weapons or pull off a no-scope. Rockets are much easier to use and destroy at close and medium range.

 

You ask the most ridiculous quesitons, just so you know. First it's "uhhhh what do rockets have to do with map follow?", then it's "uhhhhh why would someone go for the weapon that's much more user friendly and effective at a variety of ranges over the weapon that requires precision accuracy and a lot of luck if you get caught with your pants down?" I mean, seriously.

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So the jetpack invalidating map geo is just jim-dandy to you, but power weapons outclassing a player's spawn weapon is not? Oy vey...

 

Obviously you wouldn't just take Construct, Prisoner, and Hang Em High, throw a Jetpack on them, and leave it be. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and this needs to be accounted for when both designing maps and items.

With Halo's limiting players to 2 weapons at a time, it's absolutely necessary that no weapons overtly outclass another. Pair a SAW with a Sniper or Rocket, and you're more or less outright better than a player that decided to keep their BR. Powerups don't need downsides because there is no limit to the amount you can carry, but weapons do.

 

Is the shotgun going out of style?

 

To be frank, it might as well. It provides an instant kill with naught more than aiming at center mass. The Sniper requires a player to aim at the head, and Rockets have travel time. The Boltshot requires prediction and preparation to use, while having the bonus utility of being able to pick off weaker targets outside of the charge shot's effective range. This is certainly not a weapon I would want players to spawn with, but it is unique and balanced enough to other on-map weapons to warrant its existence.

 

 

 

If you limit it to that extent, then it is now pointless and still keeps that random aspect in the game. My argument for the Jetpack and why I prefer the original Invis and OS power ups as opposed to the Jetpack is because the Jetpack is an active ability and the OS and Invis are passive. You can't control any aspect of the OS or Invis other than the time it starts because you picked it up. A player must have complete control over the jetpack in order to use it. That is why I don't feel it belongs in a Halo game. Passive power ups are perfectly fine, but just because you limit someones use of an ability, as long as they have control over it, there will be a way to exploit it.

It's not pointless because being able to gain territory at the touch of a button is a huge advantage, large enough that it must be regulated to a single player at a time.

Jetpack bridges the gap between passive powerups and active weapons. It is a powerup that has a limited use before having to recharge. That's not to say the current iterations of the Jetpack are perfect; anything could use improvement.

 

 

The original power ups were completely balanced. If you try to do too much with an OS, then you will end up burning it and waste your teams opportunity to use it effectively. Also, one plasma stick, and the OS is dead. For invis, if you push and someone can see you, you've lost all your advantage. 

 

And if you Jetpack around blindly, you're going to be picked off and lose that advantage.

 

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Camo and jetpack AAs are both fucking terrible. Jetpack overall is bullshit. Either stop defending it or stop referring to yourself as a fan of competitive Halo.

 

To your second bit, because the sniper has a high skill gap and is most effective at long range. Get caught with the sniper out at close or mid range and you either have to switch weapons or pull off a no-scope. Rockets are much easier to use and destroy at close and medium range.

 

You ask the most ridiculous quesitons, just so you know. First it's "uhhhh what do rockets have to do with map follow?", then it's "uhhhhh why would someone go for the weapon that's much more user friendly and effective at a variety of ranges over the weapon that requires precision accuracy and a lot of luck if you get caught with your pants down?" I mean, seriously.

Rockets just help dumb the game down, and should be removed in favor of a more skillful replacement.

They're just bullshit.

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Camo and jetpack AAs are both fucking terrible. Jetpack overall is bullshit. Either stop defending it or stop referring to yourself as a fan of competitive Halo.

 

To your second bit, because the sniper has a high skill gap and is most effective at long range. Get caught with the sniper out at close or mid range and you either have to switch weapons or pull off a no-scope. Rockets are much easier to use and destroy at close and medium range.

 

You ask the most idiotic quesitons, just so you know.

 

You really need to lay off the attidude because it isnt doing your points any favor.

 

Also how does any of what you are saying ( which I obviously knew already) have anything to do with what I asked?

 

What I said : rockets dont need as much skill as a sniper, so why are people defending them so much, especially when they are often used on maps they arent made for.

You responded to that by going on a tangent about "map flow", when there is pretty much no difference between the "map flow" a sniper creates and a rocket creates save for the fact that bad players need the rockets even more because they are much more useful for them than a sniper.

 

So your argument is because they are easy to use (we want a game with a high skillgap so this is bad) they should be put on a map to create "map flow" even when this could be done with other power weapons that are harder to use?

If you need to give a team a huge temporary advantage just so they can some map control/kills going, you are playing a shitty map.

 

This is going to be my last post to you however because you obviously would rather respond in a hostile "I know better than you because I know what competitive halo is duh"

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Obviously you wouldn't just take Construct, Prisoner, and Hang Em High, throw a Jetpack on them, and leave it be. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and this needs to be accounted for when both designing maps and items.

With Halo's limiting players to 2 weapons at a time, it's absolutely necessary that no weapons overtly outclass another. Pair a SAW with a Sniper or Rocket, and you're more or less outright better than a player that decided to keep their BR. Powerups don't need downsides because there is no limit to the amount you can carry, but weapons do.

 

Jesus H Christ. I don't whether to laugh hysterically or put my head in the oven.

 

MFW you want an entire class of map design to be thrown out so that jetpacks can be accommodated.

 

MFW you still don't understand the idea of a power weapon.

 

MFW it never occurs to you that someone with a sniper and SAW had to earn those weapons, and therefore they deserve their advantage. Which is just that, an advantage, not an absolute. A crafty BR player can still kill the sniper/SAW guy.

 

To be frank, it might as well. It provides an instant kill with naught more than aiming at center mass. The Sniper requires a player to aim at the head, and Rockets have travel time. The Boltshot requires prediction and preparation to use, while having the bonus utility of being able to pick off weaker targets outside of the charge shot's effective range. This is certainly not a weapon I would want players to spawn with, but it is unique and balanced enough to other on-map weapons to warrant its existence.

 

I see. Would you rather the sniper rifle be replaced by a version of the spartan laser that gives a headshot bonus?

 

 

Rockets just help dumb the game down, and should be removed in favor of a more skillful replacement.

They're just bullshit.

 

 

Yeah, the process of acquiring and keeping map control really dumbs the game down. I agree.

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Oh, are we about to have the jump boots conversation again? I so enjoyed that back on MLG forums.

 

EDIT: just to nip this in the bud, jump boots and jetpack are not the same thing. Jump boots comes with a limited number of uses, takes more skill to use effectively, and the penalty for fucking up is greater than with a jetpack.

 

I would actually welcome the jump boots in Halo. They're like the powerup camo to the jetpack's AA camo. One is good for competitive play, the other is fucking ********.

 

EDIT2: "r(e)tarded" is censored, but "fucking" is not? Kappa.jpg

 

My point is that a Jetpack powerup can be done right, not that the ones we have in Reach/4 are done right.

 

A map designed with a "movement powerup" in mind is something that's been done many times, hence why I pointed out UT.

 

*Edit*

 

Jetpack with no recharge (one time use), with a 60s timer bottom mid on a Derelict-style map is a good way to start thinking of possibilities

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Also how does any of what you are saying ( which I obviously knew already) have anything to do with what I asked?

 

What I said : rockets dont need as much skill as a sniper, so why are people defending them so much, especially when they are often used on maps they arent made for.

You responded to that by going on a tangent about "map flow", when there is pretty much no difference between the "map flow" a sniper creates and a rocket creates save for the fact that bad players need the rockets even more because it is much more useful for them than a sniper.

 

Have you played a single game of Halo in your life?

 

So your argument is because they are easy to use (we want a game with a high skillgap so this is bad) they should be put on a map to create "map flow" even when this could be done with other power weapons that are harder to use?

 

Maybe because it defeats the purpose?

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Jesus H Christ. I don't whether to laugh hysterically or put my head in the oven.

I've been mostly civil this entire time, there is absolutely no reason to be a jerk.

 

MFW you want an entire class of map design to be thrown out so that jetpacks can be accommodated.

That implies that Jetpacks would be featured on every single map.

 

MFW you still don't understand the idea of a power weapon.

Yeah, let's just give players a nuke. It's a power weapon, after all.

 

MFW it never occurs to you that someone with a sniper and SAW had to fight for those weapons, and therefore they deserve their advantage. Which is just that, an advantage, not an absolute. A crafty BR player can still kill the sniper/SAW guy.

That's pretty unlikely. Have you used the SAW?

 

I see. Would you rather the sniper rifle be replaced by a version of the spartan laser that gives a headshot bonus?

Of course not; then you would just have a straight upgrade to the Boltshot.

 

Yeah, the process of acquiring and keeping map control really dumbs the game down. I agree.

Rockets are not the only item to create movement and control.

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It's not pointless because being able to gain territory at the touch of a button is a huge advantage, large enough that it must be regulated to a single player at a time.

Jetpack bridges the gap between passive powerups and active weapons. It is a powerup that has a limited use before having to recharge. That's not to say the current iterations of the Jetpack are perfect; anything could use improvement.

 

There shouldn't be Active Power ups. I'm all in favor of implementing Speed Boost to help with the offensive side as long as Jetpack goes away. It is a limited passive ability. If we start adding active abilities into the game, then there is no end. People won't understand why a jetpack makes sense and armor lock doesn't. Just because it's limited doesn't mean it's better. It's still game breaking.

 

If we put a jetpack on Prisoner, then someone could just grab it and fly up to the top without contest. That's bullshit. You should always have to fight to gain position. Same with Damnation. AAs destroyed the maps in CE Anniversary. So did it being built in the reach engine, but that's not part of the discussion.

 

If we go back to H3 style and the only way to get any kind of height advantage is with the deployable grav lift, I'm fine with that. It has limited, 1 time use, and it's not limited to just one player. Anyone can jump on that grav lift to follow the player to the top if they can perform the jump exactly the same or better. 

 

And if you Jetpack around blindly, you're going to be picked off and lose that advantage.

 

This is a duh statement. The point is that you can use it offensive and defensively. If you are being chased by two people near sword on lockout, you can just jetpack out of the situation. That's bullshit. Jetpack also means you can fly above grenades and be completely fine because you've above their blast radius. Same with Rockets. Fly away from walls and out into the open and the slow kill times Halo has will mean you can just fly to safety. If this were Titalfall or COD where you can die in under .5 seconds by any weapon and then the jetpack might be properly balanced. 

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I've been mostly civil this entire time, there is absolutely no reason to be a jerk.

 

I'm a sociopath.

 

That implies that Jetpacks would be featured on every single map.

 

Sword Base was purpose built for jetpack use. That map sure turned out swell, didn't it?

 

Yeah, let's just give players a nuke. It's a power weapon, after all.

 

If you place it in an appropriately disadvantageous position on the map, then yeah, sure.

 

Hey, wait a minute. I thought rockets were nukes??!

 

That's pretty unlikely. Have you used the SAW?

 

Yes.

 

Of course not; then you would just have a straight upgrade to the Boltshot.

 

But it's more skillful and requires preparation and stuff!

 

Rockets are not the only item to create movement and control.

 

But they're by far the best at it.

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My point is that a Jetpack powerup can be done right, not that the ones we have in Reach/4 are done right.

 

A map designed with a "movement powerup" in mind is something that's been done many times, hence why I pointed out UT.

 

*Edit*

 

Jetpack with no recharge (one time use), with a 60s timer bottom mid on a Derelict-style map is a good way to start thinking of possibilities

 

Porting the jump boots themselves is an improvement on those possibilities.

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Rockets are not the only item to create movement and control.

 

But they're by far the best at it.

 

Exactly. Rockets are a power weapon than almost anyone can use effectively. Just because the competitive community wants a competitive game, doesn't mean that everything has to take the worlds best talent to use. The sniper is/was difficult for average people to use. Rockets on the other hand, anyone can shoot at someones feet and kill, but the fact that anyone can use it, means most people will flock to get it so they can kill people easier. Meaning it created a rush of movement on the map when they spawned, which ironically is called "Map Movement." 

 

No on is going to push for a Jetpack like they do Rockets. Jetpack is a waste and I'm glad the AAs are gone. They need to stay that way. Arguing that Jetpack is good for Halo makes you mentally challenged. It's gone because it doesn't work, and to think that a new iteration of it will magically fix it is just down right idiotic. 343i made their own version of it to make it "less powerful" but we saw how that didn't work either. 

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Have you played a single game of Halo in your life?

 

 

Maybe because it defeats the purpose?

 

Ok one more time because you are obviously trying to "win"

 

I might not be the greatest player, but I have a 50 in Halo 3 with 7700 games played, multiple times Onyx (9/15% and more) and a 1.43 kd in MLG with around 10k games in Reach and a 2.39 KD and a few CSR 50s with around 6300 games played in H4.

I believe those are enough credentials to disprove I "never played a single game of Halo"

 

I would have played H2/H1 if I had been around then, and im looking forward to the Master chief collection, but im never touching Halo 3 again, which If I had to guess is probably your favourite game ever.

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Why are we talking about jetpacks in this thread..? Unless you are all going to be playing Halo 4 when MCC drops, I'm really not understanding.

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Sword Base was purpose built for jetpack use. That map sure turned out swell, didn't it?

False equivalency. Chiron was built for teleporters, so I guess all teleporters are bad without exception.

 

 

If you place it in an appropriately disadvantageous position on the map, then yeah, sure.

 

Hey, wait a minute. I thought rockets were nukes??!

Call of Duty-style nuke that kills every player on the map and automatically ends the game.

It's okay, it's a pickup, though.

 

 

But it's more skillful and requires preparation and stuff!

The Sniper is[should be] extremely difficult to use, and punishes players greatly for fucking up.

The Shotgun does not have nearly as much risk, for a considerable amount more reward.

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Exactly. Rockets are a power weapon than almost anyone can use effectively. Just because the competitive community wants a competitive game, doesn't mean that everything has to take the worlds best talent to use. The sniper is/was difficult for average people to use. Rockets on the other hand, anyone can shoot at someones feet and kill, but the fact that anyone can use it, means most people will flock to get it so they can kill people easier. Meaning it created a rush of movement on the map when they spawned, which ironically is called "Map Movement." 

 

No on is going to push for a Jetpack like they do Rockets. Jetpack is a waste and I'm glad the AAs are gone. They need to stay that way. Arguing that Jetpack is good for Halo makes you mentally challenged. It's gone because it doesn't work, and to think that a new iteration of it will magically fix it is just down right idiotic. 343i made their own version of it to make it "less powerful" but we saw how that didn't work either. 

You contradict yourself so hard.

Jetpack is broken as long as you want it to be broken, then it just magically becomes worthless and the worst thing on the map.

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False equivalency. Chiron was built for teleporters, so I guess all teleporters are bad without exception.

 

No, Chiron was built for extreme close quarters combat. Connecting the rooms with teleporters instead of hallways was just one way of making that happen.

 

Call of Duty-style nuke that kills every player on the map and automatically ends the game.

It's okay, it's a pickup, though.

 

If you place it in an appropriately disadvantageous spot on the map, then sure, whatever. Emphasis on appropriately disadvantageous.

 

The Sniper is[should be] extremely difficult to use, and punishes players greatly for fucking up.

The Shotgun does not have nearly as much risk, for a considerable amount more reward.

 

If you miss a shotgun blast at close range, you're fucked unless your opponent sucks or is very ill-equipped for close range combat.

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Porting the jump boots themselves is an improvement on those possibilities.

 

That was kinda the point, but we're still making it look like a Jetpack and giving it some tweaks to fit Halo's movement mechanics more closely.

 

Having a well-tuned Jetpack fuel meter instead of the Jump Boots use count could work well though.  Executing a Jetpack jump perfectly leaves enough fuel for another jump, whereas burning more fuel to make the jump easier only gives you enough for one.

 

Can something like this be done in Halo 4's custom options?  I forget.

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If you miss a shotgun blast at close range, you're fucked unless your opponent sucks or very ill-equipped for close range combat.

The point is that it's pretty difficult to miss with a shotgun up close, unless we're talking about Halo 2's lottery cannon.

Even in Halo 1, the second shot wasn't that far behind.

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Ok one more time because you are obviously trying to "win"

 

I might not be the greatest player, but I have a 50 in Halo 3 with 7700 games played, multiple times Onyx (9/15% and more) and a 1.43 kd in MLG with around 10k games in Reach and a 2.39 KD and a few CSR 50s with around 6300 games played in H4.

I believe those are enough credentials to disprove I "never played a single game of Halo"

 

10,000 games of Reach and you're claiming that the sniper directed map traffic just as effectively as the rockets. That's just... I don't even know what to say.

 

I would have played H2/H1 if I had been around then, and im looking forward to the Master chief collection, but im never touching Halo 3 again, which If I had to guess is probably your favourite game ever.

 

Oh wow. The Halo 3 kid called me a Halo 3 kid. Inception!

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That was kinda the point, but we're still making it look like a Jetpack and giving it some tweaks to fit Halo's movement mechanics more closely.

 

Having a well-tuned Jetpack fuel meter instead of the Jump Boots use count could work well though.  Executing a Jetpack jump perfectly leaves enough fuel for another jump, whereas burning more fuel to make the jump easier only gives you enough for one.

 

Can something like this be done in Halo 4's custom options?  I forget.

Through modding, it would function more or less like that.

 

Personally, I'd rather see a much slower consumption rate, with no recharge at all. Unless that is what you described. In which case, that is entirely possible.

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You contradict yourself so hard.

Jetpack is broken as long as you want it to be broken, then it just magically becomes worthless and the worst thing on the map.

explain the contradiction?

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Armor Abilities aren't making a return in Halo 5. Halo 4 will be the only game with them in MCC. The other games will have Power Weapons, Power-Ups, and H3 will have Equipment.

 

Jetpacks are not the same as Power Weapons. I would rather have maps designed on many different weapons to control other than just rockets and snipers and shotguns. Have power-ups counter weapons; have weapons counter power-ups.

 

Simple. Effective. Exciting.

 

Don't waste posts debating AAs as pickups; that is no longer an idea most of the people in Halo are thinking about now. They're thinking about grenade jumping. They're thinking about strafing. They're thinking about button combos. They're thinking about their favorite games, and their favorite maps. They're thinking about how Halo can come back without the bullshit plaguing H4. They're thinking about the H5 Beta, and the new Spartan Abilities.

 

They are thinking about Halo.

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Don't waste posts debating AAs as pickups; that is no longer an idea most of the people in Halo are thinking about now. They're thinking about grenade jumping. They're thinking about strafing. They're thinking about button combos. They're thinking about their favorite games, and their favorite maps. They're thinking about how Halo can come back without the bullshit plaguing H4. They're thinking about the H5 Beta, and the new Spartan Abilities.

 

They are thinking about Halo.

I've been thinking about the Dammy OS jump in my dreams lately. :Halo:

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