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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Grenades are such an underrated aspect of Halo. All those big brain posts how they're "OP" and you shouldn't spawn with them, yet they are one of the coolest aspects of the game and allow for insanely creative gameplay. Ideally I'd like to see something like

  • Strong frags that detonate on rest so you can't just cheese them during a gunfight
  • Stickies that can be instasploded like H3.
  • Firebomb/incendiary for AOE. The H5 splinters are complete cancer but an AOE grenade could be very interesting especially on room-based maps.
  • For BTB and vehicle gameplay maybe something like an EMP grenade that acts like the powerdrain from H3, but nerf the shield drain rate massively. I always enjoyed how you could take a Banshee out of the sky with that thing.
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If there were two buttons dedicated to equipment, I think a Power Drain-Grenade Launcher combo would make for a nice pick up against vehicles.  Similarly, a Flamethrower-Missile Pod combo could be good for up close and distant vehicles.  And to protect yourself from vehicles, a Bubble Shield-Hardlight Shield combo.  

By rolling select equipment, armor abilities, and support weapons into one unified system, these items can be better utilized.  

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I just want a grenade that you can bowl across surfaces rather than bounce them.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

I just want a grenade that you can bowl across surfaces rather than bounce them.

It could have spikes and run people over.  

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

It could have spikes and run people over.  

It could transition between ground wall and ceiling seamlessly while rolling.

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31 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

I just want a grenade that you can bowl across surfaces rather than bounce them.

I think we should have an underhand nade option like CS but there's no more buttons on the controller to map it to. and combining buttons doesn't seem doable with the different controller layouts. Someone would always be at a disadvantage having to press the buttons and aim

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2 minutes ago, znot said:

I think we should have an underhand nade option like CS but there's no more buttons on the controller to map it to.

You could use the same button but have the option to double tap or hold for the underhand throw. Wouldn't be obtuse.

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Just now, S0UL FLAME said:

You could use the same button but have the option to double tap or hold for the underhand throw. Wouldn't be obtuse.

THATS NOT GOOD ENOUGH SOUL

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I don’t think you need a button dedicated to underhand grenade throws and double tapping or holding the throw grenade button is not ideal.  Why not just have the underhand throw be how a specific grenade/equipment is deployed, like how Power Drain was.  

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Grenades are such an underrated aspect of Halo. All those big brain posts how they're "OP" and you shouldn't spawn with them, yet they are one of the coolest aspects of the game and allow for insanely creative gameplay. Ideally I'd like to see something like

  • Strong frags that detonate on rest so you can't just cheese them during a gunfight
  • Stickies that can be instasploded like H3.
  • Firebomb/incendiary for AOE. The H5 splinters are complete cancer but an AOE grenade could be very interesting especially on room-based maps.
  • For BTB and vehicle gameplay maybe something like an EMP grenade that acts like the powerdrain from H3, but nerf the shield drain rate massively. I always enjoyed how you could take a Banshee out of the sky with that thing.

How do you figure they allow for "creative gameplay". 

How do you figure they're underrated, given gameplay.

Why do you think they're cool?

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Grenades are such an underrated aspect of Halo. All those big brain posts how they're "OP" and you shouldn't spawn with them, yet they are one of the coolest aspects of the game and allow for insanely creative gameplay. Ideally I'd like to see something like

  • Strong frags that detonate on rest so you can't just cheese them during a gunfight
  • Stickies that can be instasploded like H3.
  • Firebomb/incendiary for AOE. The H5 splinters are complete cancer but an AOE grenade could be very interesting especially on room-based maps.
  • For BTB and vehicle gameplay maybe something like an EMP grenade that acts like the powerdrain from H3, but nerf the shield drain rate massively. I always enjoyed how you could take a Banshee out of the sky with that thing.

A grenade's primary use will always be as an anti-camping device, but there's no reason that they can't be incorporated more regularly into the game as a risk-reward option for gaining the upper hand in a gun battle. Landing a grenade right under a strafing opponent or sticking them mid-battle is something that should never be discouraged, because at least in all iterations of Halo thus far those tactics have been either "last resort" plays or extremely high-skill maneuvers.

I gotta draw the line at AOE grenades, however. If we want Halo maps to be smaller, thus cutting down on available avenues of attack (at least the specific spot where you want to go) AOE grenades would be a completely skill-less denial weapon that would make objective games a living nightmare. There's also very little that goes into the conceivable strategy, it's very much a "durr, throw AOE grenade behind flag carrier" kind of thing.

As far as BTB, if the utility weapon is going to continue to be fucking useless against vehicles, grenades are a must.

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9 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

How do you figure they allow for "creative gameplay". 

How do you figure they're underrated, given gameplay.

Why do you think they're cool?

They allow for creative gameplay with aspects like grenade jumping, weapon launching. Can be used to soften targets or flush them out. Pairs well with the Utility weapon, and arguably just as important. Instasplode techniques allowing unorthodox angles. Are a window to a multitude of effects outside of just blowing up, such as spike grenade ricochet, plasma grenade flash effects, stickies, ect.

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5 minutes ago, The Tyco said:

They allow for creative gameplay with aspects like grenade jumping, weapon launching. Can be used to soften targets or flush them out. Pairs well with the Utility weapon, and arguably just as important. Instasplode techniques allowing unorthodox angles. Are a window to a multitude of effects outside of just blowing up, such as spike grenade ricochet, plasma grenade flash effects, stickies, ect.

No one's grenade jumping anywhere but campaign as long as these nades deal damage, and I doubt impulse nades will become a thing. Weapon launching is only in a few games. One of which is the original, the second of which only had pad launching, not to deincentivize it, but it isn't exactly a priority and it isn't being used commonly even when the tactic is laid out in figurative "black and white". We could last without it. Softening targets is a double edged sword when something so easy to use deals more damage in a shorter timeframe than your utility does, and I dunno why we want things like flash effects. They actually blow dick in any game they're in, lol. 

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Grenades assist you in getting people out of power positions.

 

6 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

I'll go balls-out and say not only bring back 4 frag starts, but also have 4 grenade types, and let the player carry up to 4 of each.

That idea makes me want to dead. Whilst high level play would make this more tactical, low level play would be a total nade fest and total dogshit.

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16 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

A grenade's primary use will always be as an anti-camping device, but there's no reason that they can't be incorporated more regularly into the game as a risk-reward option for gaining the upper hand in a gun battle. Landing a grenade right under a strafing opponent or sticking them mid-battle is something that should never be discouraged, because at least in all iterations of Halo thus far those tactics have been either "last resort" plays or extremely high-skill maneuvers.

I gotta draw the line at AOE grenades, however. If we want Halo maps to be smaller, thus cutting down on available avenues of attack (at least the specific spot where you want to go) AOE grenades would be a completely skill-less denial weapon that would make objective games a living nightmare. There's also very little that goes into the conceivable strategy, it's very much a "durr, throw AOE grenade behind flag carrier" kind of thing.

As far as BTB, if the utility weapon is going to continue to be fucking useless against vehicles, grenades are a must.

I mean I'm not super hung up on the AOE grenades. I'd imagine you could jump over them and take less damage, but that puts you on a predictable path. They obviously also shouldn't last fucking forever like the splinters do. If they're tuned right I think they might work and it's a shame H3's firebombs never saw serious gameplay because of the frame drops, but oh well. Could at least be tested.

On the topic of mid-battle nades, I don't think it's 100% a bad thing, but in recent games and Reach especially it's just completely stupid how you can turn around and nade someone to reset or just outright win a gunfight. Obviously also has to do with the piss-poor utilities but I think the instant timers/airburst are definitely not ideal. If nades are supposed to be decently strong damage wise (so they can actually fulfill their anti-camper role) they can't ALSO be on an instant fuse. Otherwise you have to either make the utility super strong or the base player speed super fast that it potentially causes other issues.

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1 minute ago, Shekkles said:

Grenades assist you in getting people out of power positions.

 

Whilst high level play would make this more tactical, low level play would be a total nade fest and total dogshit.

For all the wrong reasons, sure. It isn't about what it does, but how. And how it does is detrimental. Because of the ease of use to damage ratio. On top of them being spawn items, lol.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you underestimate nades at high level. They're not tactical even with pros. Take a look at strongholds, hill, even flag. You chuck them at objs to nuke players.

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3 minutes ago, Basu said:

I mean I'm not super hung up on the AOE grenades. I'd imagine you could jump over them and take less damage, but that puts you on a predictable path. They obviously also shouldn't last fucking forever like the splinters do. If they're tuned right I think they might work and it's a shame H3's firebombs never saw serious gameplay because of the frame drops, but oh well. Could at least be tested.

On the topic of mid-battle nades, I don't think it's 100% a bad thing, but in recent games and Reach especially it's just completely stupid how you can turn around and nade someone to reset or just outright win a gunfight. Obviously also has to do with the piss-poor utilities but I think the instant timers/airburst are definitely not ideal. If nades are supposed to be decently strong damage wise (so they can actually fulfill their anti-camper role) they can't ALSO be on an instant fuse. Otherwise you have to either make the utility super strong or the base player speed super fast that it potentially causes other issues.

Making the utility weapon strong and increasing base speed are, IMHOtep, non-negotiable starting points to a competent Halo game, so we can factor that right into how we structure grenade combat. The point is, though, that grenades are something that can VERY easily be balanced, so someone speaking of mid-combat grenades as something that's inherently problematic (not you, obviously) is just flat out wrong. We just have years and years of shit Halo as our reference point right now.

The problem with AOE grenades is that 1) there's almost no middle point between OP and useless, and 2) a skill play involving them would have to involve using it in a manner as far out as, for example, X-jumping the radar jammer in H3. This, however, is coming from someone who is staunchly against "dumb" items, things that require no forethought for their use and no skill to operate.

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I think Halo 3 had the best implementation of (frag) grenades so far:

- Very good throw distance, not too weak, not too strong
- Very memorable, consistent arc
- Only 2 max, preventing 4 nades being hurled by plebs at all times.
- Good timer, good sound effect
- Good radius (unlike f***ing Reach)
- Good bounce, always felt like you could get it where you wanted.
- Very rare on maps as a pickup.

However, my issues are:

- I don't think frags should physically alter a players location (push them around). Plasma grenades yes, but frags no.
- I have no problem with plasma nades dropping shields but I think frags shouldn't be quite to effective against shields whilst retaining effectiveness against flesh.
- Geometry on modern maps makes grenades inconsistent.

I despise Halo 1 and Reach's tactical nukes. In both games it is extremely difficult to jump away if they land near you (especially Reach) and they do too much damage. Halo 2's had a stupid arc and people spammed the shite out of them as well.

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CE's nades don't need to be as strong as they are because the pistol is so strong and because their fuse literally resets if they get bounced around by another explosion. The insane arc is also unnecessary because pre-nading that far isn't a critical component to gameplay, and as I keep saying, smaller maps mean you don't have to try to nade weapons that are five miles away from you. You can also drop CE's nades when dying (death bonus much), it's not necessary to put such a huge penalty on nade-jumping, and BLB'ing probably shouldn't get you killed if you've only taken a single shot so far in the fight.

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11 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

balloon

How about objects on the map that can redirect grenades?

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

How about objects on the map that can redirect grenades?

We already have that, it's called the map itself

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5 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

You could use the same button but have the option to double tap or hold for the underhand throw. Wouldn't be obtuse.

I don't think it's good enough as we see with assassinations and holding it. It's tough for the controller to sometimes tell if you didn't want to do that.

 

Plus I think holding/double tapping introduces an extra buffer. Because the input has to tell the difference between you double tapping it, tapping it or whether you're going to hold it. So i don't think that's good for comp play. Because it's going to have to take that extra millisecond for the game to make up it's mind which input you're hitting and then animate the action.

 

How many times have you animated someone in Reach by accident. People will probably just keep the option off to prevent errors.

 

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What about just holding down on the D-pad when you hit the grenade trigger/button?

But I've said before that I'm not sure I see much purpose in multiple arm angles for grenades. Maybe one grenade type is thrown sidearm/underhand by default, and that's it.

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I want a grenade type that can pay off my student debt.

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