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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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41 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

You know somebody at 343 is reading this and scratching their heads right now. BUT I THOUGHT THEY WANTED EVERY PLAYLIST TO BE UBERHARDCOREMASTERRACE RANKED?

Bold of you to assume 343 is reading player feedback.

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Looks like they're launching with uncapped FPS afterall, but it might still be in a buggy state. Same for audio. Better than nothing I suppose, but "we might do more Reach flights in the future for mouse and audio tweaks" doesn't give me much hope that the game will be good at launch. I'm not expecting an MCC launch 2.0 but I wish they'd learn their damn lesson and stop launching unfinished games.

The new Forge pieces look sick, can't wait to see what people come up with, I might actually get a little into Forge again. I never bothered to learn the H5F controls as it just wasn't worth it for such a mediocre game.

Also an interesting quote from the blog:

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In the future, we would like to experiment with a TU version of Invasion with some other tweaks introduced to retain this balance. This would mainly involve buffs to the accuracy and/or range of the Plasma Repeater. There are some technical dependencies which need to be resolved before we can support this, but we’d like to experiment in this area.

I would love a ZB version of Invasion. Probably not gonna happen because "respect the vanilla experience", but it could definitely work and be balanced if they were willing to overhaul the sandbox.

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Additionally, the experience becomes very inaccessible to new or less skilled players due to the enlarged skill gap. Zero bloom is also a major departure from Reach’s vanilla gameplay, alienating a portion of long-time players.

Literally the only arguments for bloom are nostalgia and "we must compress the skill gap, someone think of the bad kids". Ugh I wish they had the balls to just remove bloom and tweak the rest of the sandbox accordingly. No one actually misses bloom battles and autos that take 3 seconds to kill someone, people enjoyed the game despite these mechanics. They largely got rid of H4 Infinity nonsense in MCC why can't we get rid of the cancer that is bloomy Reach?

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On weapons where this is not the case, any round fired within the error deceleration interval will have a wider error angle and thus more potential spread. The latter can be observed prominently on the pistol in Halo: CE where firing at the maximum rate incurs significant spread.

This just made me want to punch the screen. No one outside of single-digit IQ holds down the trigger on the CE Magnum, I'm so tired of people spreading the "CE pistol had bloom hahah" argument in addition to the never ending "CE pistol OP" posts on reddit.

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15 minutes ago, Basu said:

This just made me want to punch the screen. No one outside of single-digit IQ holds down the trigger on the CE Magnum, I'm so tired of people spreading the "CE pistol had bloom hahah" argument in addition to the never ending "CE pistol OP" posts on reddit.

Someone on r/halo a few days ago tried to tell me the CE pistol is hitscan

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Just now, Jake Teh Nub said:

Someone on r/halo a few days ago tried to tell me the CE pistol is hitscan

"What do you mean? They perfectly recreated the CE Magnum in Halo 5. You people just hate it because the viewmodel is in a different position."

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17 minutes ago, Basu said:

Looks like they're launching with uncapped FPS afterall, but it might still be in a buggy state. Same for audio. Better than nothing I suppose, but "we might do more Reach flights in the future for mouse and audio tweaks" doesn't give me much hope that the game will be good at launch. I'm not expecting an MCC launch 2.0 but I wish they'd learn their damn lesson and stop launching unfinished games.

The new Forge pieces look sick, can't wait to see what people come up with, I might actually get a little into Forge again. I never bothered to learn the H5F controls as it just wasn't worth it for such a mediocre game.

Also an interesting quote from the blog:

I would love a ZB version of Invasion. Probably not gonna happen because "respect the vanilla experience", but it could definitely work and be balanced if they were willing to overhaul the sandbox.

Literally the only arguments for bloom are nostalgia and "we must compress the skill gap, someone think of the bad kids". Ugh I wish they had the balls to just remove bloom and tweak the rest of the sandbox accordingly. No one actually misses bloom battles and autos that take 3 seconds to kill someone, people enjoyed the game despite these mechanics. They largely got rid of H4 Infinity nonsense in MCC why can't we get rid of the cancer that is bloomy Reach?

This just made me want to punch the screen. No one outside of single-digit IQ holds down the trigger on the CE Magnum, I'm so tired of people spreading the "CE pistol had bloom hahah" argument in addition to the never ending "CE pistol OP" posts on reddit.

The fact is random spread is bloom though, reach was just the first game to have it “visually”.

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I wanna rip my hair out with the general community.  Even when it's not actually a direct balance discussion just seeing people meme it in passing like "haha yeah I remember the Ce Pistol that thing was a freakin' moon destroyer"...no, it wasn't

@Boyo

If other weapons have their own means of increasing their power then it's no longer redundant, but I still just really not keen on the idea of dual wielding in general.  It's just thoughtless additional power...even recoil isn't really increasing the depth so much as just limiting the range of that power.  Like it's okay but you can do better.

Getting potential first shot advantage is a valid point except you have no real way of knowing if you actually landed any as they bounce all over that wide and long space, could've easily been avoided outright.  Except with hitmarkers but then you end up with the same problem or "problem" as grenades.

Yeah of course.  It's just you need appropriate map design and I'm not sure how well vents, tight halls and such would be received by the community these days, even just as the occasional risky shortcut.  You would have to introduce these into Halo's map design for a ricochet weapon to have true meaning in my view.

Skirting the idea of playable races for the moment, a powerup that did that would be an idea to consider, and we've already been talking about powerups that enable key shortcuts on the map so...

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1 hour ago, Ramirez77 said:

I wanna rip my hair out with the general community.  Even when it's not actually a direct balance discussion just seeing people meme it in passing like "haha yeah I remember the Ce Pistol that thing was a freakin' moon destroyer"...no, it wasn't

@Boyo

If other weapons have their own means of increasing their power then it's no longer redundant, but I still just really not keen on the idea of dual wielding in general.  It's just thoughtless additional power...even recoil isn't really increasing the depth so much as just limiting the range of that power.  Like it's okay but you can do better.

Getting potential first shot advantage is a valid point except you have no real way of knowing if you actually landed any as they bounce all over that wide and long space, could've easily been avoided outright.  Except with hitmarkers but then you end up with the same problem or "problem" as grenades.

Yeah of course.  It's just you need appropriate map design and I'm not sure how well vents, tight halls and such would be received by the community these days, even just as the occasional risky shortcut.  You would have to introduce these into Halo's map design for a ricochet weapon to have true meaning in my view.

Skirting the idea of playable races for the moment, a powerup that did that would be an idea to consider, and we've already been talking about powerups that enable key shortcuts on the map so...

You’re not going to be able to convince people the ce pistol isn’t op when people have been playing halo 3 and beyond for years. Also fun little fact, people don’t care if a weapon takes skill or not, it doesn’t negate the power of said weapon. The fact is the ce pistol is pretty op, with a perfect ttk of .6 and what an average of .7-1.3 at best is what I’m guessing?  Looking at the wingman in apex legends, that gun takes tons of skill, but it didn’t prevent it getting many Nerfs. If a gun is really strong regardless of skill involved people will talk how op it is. Heck’s the wingman in apex still gets asked for Nerfs, since it still does high damage 45 base, 70-95 headshot depending on distance because of damage drop off.

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36 minutes ago, Arlong said:

You’re not going to be able to convince people the ce pistol isn’t op when people have been playing halo 3 and beyond for years. Also fun little fact, people don’t care if a weapon takes skill or not, it doesn’t negate the power of said weapon. The fact is the ce pistol is pretty op, with a perfect ttk of .6 and what an average of .7-1.3 at best is what I’m guessing?  Looking at the wingman in apex legends, that gun takes tons of skill, but it didn’t prevent it getting many Nerfs. If a gun is really strong regardless of skill involved people will talk how op it is. Heck’s the wingman in apex still gets asked for Nerfs, since it still does high damage 45 base, 70-95 headshot depending on distance because of damage drop off.

I feel like that’s a more valid complaint in a BR where what gun you have is partially a matter of RNG. It becomes less valid in a game where everyone spawns with the same “OP” weapon from the start of the round. 

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

You’re not going to be able to convince people the ce pistol isn’t op when people have been playing halo 3 and beyond for years. Also fun little fact, people don’t care if a weapon takes skill or not, it doesn’t negate the power of said weapon. The fact is the ce pistol is pretty op, with a perfect ttk of .6 and what an average of .7-1.3 at best is what I’m guessing?  Looking at the wingman in apex legends, that gun takes tons of skill, but it didn’t prevent it getting many Nerfs. If a gun is really strong regardless of skill involved people will talk how op it is. Heck’s the wingman in apex still gets asked for Nerfs, since it still does high damage 45 base, 70-95 headshot depending on distance because of damage drop off.

What a bunch of bullshit. So the sniper is "OP" because it can 1hk people? I guess the AR should have the same TTK as the utility afterall because skill is not a factor? WTF.

Not factoring in skill required is exactly how 343s ******** H5 sandbox came to be, where every gun is good in pretty much any situation and there are no clear distinctions between roles anymore. 

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16 minutes ago, Basu said:

What a bunch of bullshit. So the sniper is "OP" because it can 1hk people? I guess the AR should have the same TTK as the utility afterall because skill is not a factor? WTF.

Not factoring in skill required is exactly how 343s ******** H5 sandbox came to be, where every gun is good in pretty much any situation and there are no clear distinctions between roles anymore. 

Hey I’m just saying that’s how most communities think when it comes to guns. The sniper is also a power weapon so it hardly counts🤨

 

50 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

I feel like that’s a more valid complaint in a BR where what gun you have is partially a matter of RNG. It becomes less valid in a game where everyone spawns with the same “OP” weapon from the start of the round. 

You could be right but that’s a matter of opinion still at the end of the day. People seem to care how much power a gun has, depending on the frequent use of said weapon from my observation. Competitive players on the other hand like ourselves enjoy it when a skilled weapon is very powerful because of the reward. It’s still fair to take into account that the rng gun finder isn’t ever talked about regarding nerfs to guns, since it doesn’t matter mid game(when most people have good loot). 

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17 minutes ago, Basu said:

What a bunch of bullshit. So the sniper is "OP" because it can 1hk people? I guess the AR should have the same TTK as the utility afterall because skill is not a factor? WTF.

Not factoring in skill required is exactly how 343s ******** H5 sandbox came to be, where every gun is good in pretty much any situation and there are no clear distinctions between roles anymore. 

In some way yes the AR should. You’ll find people don’t like the precision weapon being overly dominant. But that’s halo and no other game is like that. Heck’s if more games were I’d definitely be playing them. 

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The people working on the weapon design these days probably went -20 in social H3 to some kid with a sniper rifle that was timing some power up in 2008 and swore themselves that if they ever get the chance they make sure to water the game down even further and remove as much weapon/map control as possible.
Seriously that is what it feels like tho, ever since Halo 4 they tried to remove the arena feeling more and more and added animations like clamber, hitmarkers, grenade indicators, ADS and all this modern BS to make the game closer to the CoD titles they probably had more fun playing than oldschool Halo.

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6 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

The people working on the weapon design these days probably went -20 in social H3 to some kid with a sniper rifle that was timing some power up in 2008 and swore themselves that if they ever get the chance they make sure to water the game down even further and remove as much weapon/map control as possible.
Seriously that is what it feels like tho, ever since Halo 4 they tried to remove the arena feeling more and more and added animations like clamber, hitmarkers, grenade indicators, ADS and all this modern BS to make the game closer to the CoD titles they probably had more fun playing than oldschool Halo.

Heh you’re probably right, I mean frank hired people originally who hated halo, whom I bet liked cod more when they were younger. But I can still see a viable argument for autos to be strong but my starting precision should be better. Heck’s I still believe h4 weapon balance was perfect between precision and autos. 

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32 minutes ago, Basu said:

What a bunch of bullshit. So the sniper is "OP" because it can 1hk people? I guess the AR should have the same TTK as the utility afterall because skill is not a factor? WTF.

Not factoring in skill required is exactly how 343s ******** H5 sandbox came to be, where every gun is good in pretty much any situation and there are no clear distinctions between roles anymore. 

Well the sniper is op in halo 3, due to the br being a lottery gun at further distances. So I think what people mean when they say a gun is op regardless of skill is that sort of thing. Example; widow vs every other dps  in overwatch. However they're dead wrong when talking about the ce pistol as the power weapons in that game always have the advantage over the pistol in their intended ranges but that's the great thing about ces sandbox- it's that while the snipe has a massive advantage long range vs the pistol. It's not a free kill for sniper like in halo 3 - same with the rockets, comparing to help 3 where it's virtually a free kill in close range and a big advantage at medium range but again not a garunteed kill. We can see how rockets (along with their splash damage) are balanced in h3 versus the br. Just as the rockets travel a little quicker in ce to balance against the more lethal  pistol. 

It's just noobs used to the painfully slow killtimes that call ces  pistol op without thinking about how it compares relative to the sandbox. 

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8 minutes ago, Sody91 said:

Well the sniper is op in halo 3, due to the br being a lottery gun at further distances. So I think what people mean when they say a gun is op regardless of skill is that sort of thing. Example; widow vs every other dps  in overwatch. However they're dead wrong when talking about the ce pistol as the power weapons in that game always have the advantage over the pistol in their intended ranges but that's the great thing about ces sandbox- it's that while the snipe has a massive advantage long range vs the pistol. It's not a free kill for sniper like in halo 3 - same with the rockets, comparing to help 3 where it's virtually a free kill in close range and a big advantage at medium range but again not a garunteed kill. We can see how rockets (along with their splash damage) are balanced in h3 versus the br. Just as the rockets travel a little quicker in ce to balance against the more lethal  pistol. 

It's just noobs used to the painfully slow killtimes that call ces  pistol op without thinking about how it compares relative to the sandbox. 

Why do you think I mentioned the different viewpoints of casual and competitive players.

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30 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Hey I’m just saying that’s how most communities think when it comes to guns. The sniper is also a power weapon so it hardly counts🤨

 

The term power weapon should not exist aside from the rockets. Look at CE, the shotgun or sniper aren't a free killing frenzy like in H5. I know you're just the messenger here but jesus these "arguments" for Magnum/BR being "OVERPOWERED!+!!1" make my blood boil to no end.

27 minutes ago, Arlong said:

In some way yes the AR should. You’ll find people don’t like the precision weapon being overly dominant. But that’s halo and no other game is like that. Heck’s if more games were I’d definitely be playing them. 

Sadly yes. 90% of shooters nowadays are dominated by easy to use instakill autos that take almost no skill to use. It's sad to see that a game like Halo is now regarded as insanely skillful just because the average FPS is so dumbed down. Halo used to get laughed at by the Arena shooter and PC FPS crowd. And the worst part is that Halo has become steadily less skillful itself and lost all its identity in the process.

14 minutes ago, Sody91 said:

Well the sniper is op in halo 3, due to the br being a lottery gun at further distances. So I think what people mean when they say a gun is op regardless of skill is that sort of thing. Example; widow vs every other dps  in overwatch. However they're dead wrong when talking about the ce pistol as the power weapons in that game always have the advantage over the pistol in their intended ranges but that's the great thing about ces sandbox- it's that while the snipe has a massive advantage long range vs the pistol. It's not a free kill for sniper like in halo 3 - same with the rockets, comparing to help 3 where it's virtually a free kill in close range and a big advantage at medium range but again not a garunteed kill. We can see how rockets (along with their splash damage) are balanced in h3 versus the br. Just as the rockets travel a little quicker in ce to balance against the more lethal  pistol. 

It's just noobs used to the painfully slow killtimes that call ces  pistol op without thinking about how it compares relative to the sandbox. 

I agree that the H3 sniper is insane as the BR is basically a burst shotgun in that game. But you never hear kids talk about that, because they think the BR is OP because they can't hose people down halfway across the map with an AR so clearly it's the precision weapons that are OP.

As for CE yes exactly, the entire sandbox is built around the magnum and it shows. No other game has achieved this kind of beautiful weapon balance.

There's also the fact that at the level the average reddit 343 drone plays at no one strafes so the pistol is an easy 3sk more often than not. Plus MCC CE is a joke anyways with the insane magnetism on pistol and snipe and the shitty hitreg. So I can kind of see where this "pistol bad" sentiment is coming from but at the same time it's so frustrating because if people just thought about the entire sandbox even a little bit they'd realize how good the balance actually is and why it's the most fun and rewarding game of the series.

The community and especially 343 should be learning from CE's sandbox, not make memes and spread false propaganda about it.

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28 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

The people working on the weapon design these days probably went -20 in social H3 to some kid with a sniper rifle that was timing some power up in 2008 and swore themselves that if they ever get the chance they make sure to water the game down even further and remove as much weapon/map control as possible.
Seriously that is what it feels like tho, ever since Halo 4 they tried to remove the arena feeling more and more and added animations like clamber, hitmarkers, grenade indicators, ADS and all this modern BS to make the game closer to the CoD titles they probably had more fun playing than oldschool Halo.

I would love nothing more than for infinite to double down on Halo’s arena roots. Get rid of ads, sprint, clamber, thrust, etc. Increase base movement speed. Have OS, camo, and  rockets on every map with OS/Camo spawning every 45 sec and rockets every 90 sec. Make the sniper like it was in CE where it isn’t a power weapon and put it on a 30 sec timer. Bring back health and health packs. Cut the sand box way back and make the weapons more unique. Make weapon swapping fast and fluid. Either get rid of reloading all together or at least bring back something similar to backpack reloading where you can fire your secondary weapon while waiting for the other to reload. 
 

I want a game where you’re always shooting and moving in one fluid motion while aggressively challenging your opponent for control of items on the map. As the saying in Sekiro goes “hesitation is defeat.”

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3 minutes ago, Basu said:

The term power weapon should not exist aside from the rockets. Look at CE, the shotgun or sniper aren't a free killing frenzy like in H5. I know you're just the messenger here but jesus these "arguments" for Magnum/BR being "OVERPOWERED!+!!1" make my blood boil to no end.

Sadly yes. 90% of shooters nowadays are dominated by easy to use instakill autos that take almost no skill to use. It's sad to see that a game like Halo is now regarded as insanely skillful just because the average FPS is so dumbed down. Halo used to get laughed at by the Arena shooter and PC FPS crowd. And the worst part is that Halo has become steadily less skillful itself and lost all its identity in the process.

I agree that the H3 sniper is insane as the BR is basically a burst shotgun in that game. But you never hear kids talk about that, because they think the BR is OP because they can't hose people down halfway across the map with an AR so clearly it's the precision weapons that are OP.

As for CE yes exactly, the entire sandbox is built around the magnum and it shows. No other game has achieved this kind of beautiful weapon balance.

There's also the fact that at the level the average reddit 343 drone plays at no one strafes so the pistol is an easy 3sk more often than not. Plus MCC CE is a joke anyways with the insane magnetism on pistol and snipe and the shitty hitreg. So I can kind of see where this "pistol bad" sentiment is coming from but at the same time it's so frustrating because if people just thought about the entire sandbox even a little bit they'd realize how good the balance actually is and why it's the most fun and rewarding game of the series.

The community and especially 343 should be learning from CE's sandbox, not make memes and spread false propaganda about it.

1. Life of a halo player my man, I see threads like what I’m saying on waypoint and reddit, too many times where it just doesn’t surprise.

2. I don’t completely agree on your auto comment, because every game is different, for what they’re “about” 

3. In h3 terms I can’t tell you how many times I’ve lost to a sniper because he was so far back I couldn’t really hit him, which is why I felt reach dmr did a good job of this balance. heck’s it happens a lot in h5 when the distance is too far.

4. You’d have to give people a quality reason to do so. 

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7 minutes ago, Basu said:

Halo used to get laughed at by the Arena shooter and PC FPS crowd.

That never changed, it's just that the arena shooter crowd is small these days as more brainlets growing up think that CoD and some BR games are exactly what all shooters should be like, they don't even know shooters without sprint and aim down sights exist.
Quake could have made a comeback if they didn't all of a sudden decide it was a good idea to copy some Overwatch BS into their game and call it Quake Champions, now the only game with potential to be good left in this genre is Diabotical.
 

19 minutes ago, Basu said:

The community and especially 343 should be learning from CE's sandbox, not make memes and spread false propaganda about it.

Right, and besides some silly ones the map design was also way better I feel like, talking 2v2 sized maps.
Generally most arena shooters I know of have way better weapon balance than any Halo could dream of but I doubt they would look at those games and get inspired by them or even try to understand why they were so good at making a shooter with weapons/items on the map work.

Instead we get plastic spartans zipping around in animations, exactly the gimmicks that an arena experience wants to avoid to focus 100% on combat and gunplay.

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1 hour ago, LI Mr X IL said:

get rid of reloading all together

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Halo isn't widely considered a skillful game. Just throwing it out there that console games aren't even considered in that talk typically much less ones that people widely don't even know still exist for the most part

Halo also isn't an arena shooter and never has been. Halo CE is slow motion quake for casuals on top of a billion concessions for console gameplay that, imo, pretty firmly takes it out of the real arena shooter category. I don't think there really is one sub genre Halo fits into. Not that there's anything wrong with all of that. Its just that the series sold on its ease to play from the beginning so expecting some hardcore arena FPS balancing or design is actually never happening. That's probably the biggest joke of them all when it comes to fans/devs talking to each other about Halo. Surely bungie borrowed many things from some arena shooters but it wasn't ever actually one itself and that genre is so dead now that they get away with calling shit like Halo 5 an arena shooter on release

We've never had the speed, movement like strafe jumping, full weapon sandboxes with useful niches, weapons that we use for something other than shooting people, different types of projectiles etc to create the classic arena shooter but we made up for it with team gameplay and just an entirely different kind of pace in Halo. I think the easiest place to see the extent of how different Halo is would probably be comparing 1v1s in any Halo to the duel mode 

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I've been playing some CE after a few years break.  Man, I love that game even though I suck at it right now.

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@Boyo dude stop thinking getting rid of reload is a good thing. You also can’t be supportive of getting rid of such a thing if you’re ok with overheat. Battlefront 2 is like this, and it’s not the best mechanic when it’s basically the same thing. 

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