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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

@Ramirez77 @Larry Sizemore  I agree that the Spiker could be more unique.

What if the Spiker was the only dual wieldable weapon in the game and dual wielding didn’t disable melee or grenade throwing?  So if you have one Spiker and walk over another, you are now dual wielding.  In adddition, spikes penetrate vehicle armor and damage impacted occupants.  Furthermore, spikes can ricochet of walls for indirect fire.  Projectile drop once past medium range, minor vertical recoil while firing one weapon, and major vertical recoil while firing both weapons limit the weapon’s effective range, in contrast to the Plasma Rifle which is perfectly accurate.  Is that different enough?

Dual Wielding here isn't so much a change in functionality as it is just simply stronger.  In which case you've now just made the other automatics redundant.

Piercing vehicle armor is fine.

In Halo Custom Edition there's a map called Snowgrove that actually has ricocheting spikers.  It also has a couple optional tunnels leading to the bases that are only about one spartan wide that also bend around corners so you can't just see one end of the tunnel from the other.  Meaning you can indirectly spray down these tunnels with the Spiker and potentially kill someone trying to use them without exposing yourself, or vice-versa if you're pushing through them.  It's actually a pretty interesting dynamic to me and I'm impressed with the intelligent combination of weapon properties and map design, however that's pretty much the one and only instance where ricochet is remotely useful.  Otherwise it's pretty much impossible to aim a non-AoE ricocheting gun around a corner and expect to hit someone directly, at least not without radar or extreme luck involved.  Point being you need appropriate map design to actually justify it as anything more than a pointless gimmick.  Will say it's weird that maps don't really have crawl spaces anymore, in pretty much any FPS I can think of.

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

A double shot capable BR is a utility and a full auto variant of the utility all in one weapon.

Kinda but not really. A double shot is just a longer burst, not a full auto spray. The double shot is also never coming back so there's that. I do wonder though if a BR with a select fire could work. No zoom but player can choose between burst and full auto like the Famas in Counter Strike.

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8 hours ago, JordanB said:

Tough guy down voting me for having a debate. God forbid we do that around here

You act like you’ve never done that before, it shows I disagree with your viewpoints. I can tell you’re one of the people who search 4s in social a lot. Because like I said earlier, you didn’t find any solo players coming to the defense did you? I didn’t see any sort of thing on waypoint.

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1 hour ago, Ramirez77 said:

Dual Wielding here isn't so much a change in functionality as it is just simply stronger.  In which case you've now just made the other automatics redundant.

Other automatics have their own built in “upgrades”, the Spiker’s is just a separate pick up.  PR can shave its 1.2s kt down to 0.4s with 4 headshots in a row but due to crisp, quick player movement, it is difficult to achieve.  Spiker can shave its 1.4s kt down to 0.6s if a second weapon is found but due to the amount of recoil, this is only effectively possible at close range. The Needler can alt fire a projectile that, on impact, acts as a homing beacon for primary fire projectiles, increasing their projectile speed and decreasing their turn radius.  Alt fire projectiles contribute 4 needles to the 16 a supercombine requires so by using alt fire in conjunction with primary fire the player can quickly deal a chunk of damage that also activates more effective projectiles.  

 

1 hour ago, Ramirez77 said:

it's pretty much impossible to aim a non-AoE ricocheting gun around a corner and expect to hit someone directly, at least not without radar or extreme luck involved. 

On the Pit, replace second BR with an automatic weapon with vertical recoil and projectiles that can ricochet up to 2 times.  As long as the ricochets are consistent and predictable, I think there are a lot of scenarios that can play out with that.  Long hall could be fired into or out of without directly exposing yourself.  You may not be getting a full kill from blind fire ricochets but you could get the first few shots which are quite important.  

 

1 hour ago, Ramirez77 said:

Point being you need appropriate map design to actually justify it as anything more than a pointless gimmick.

Base player traits, sandbox, and map design are three legs of the milking stool that is Halo.  Each one relies on the others and needs to be designed and balanced accordingly.  You can’t have a good Halo unless there is a high synergy between these three components of the game.  

 

1 hour ago, Ramirez77 said:

Will say it's weird that maps don't really have crawl spaces anymore, in pretty much any FPS I can think of.

Like the vents in Goldeneye?  What do you think about a playable Promethean being able to turn into a small, rollable sphere by pressing crouch?  Then maps can have doggy doors and vents that these Promethean spheres can access.  If the map was played without Prometheans, these unique paths would have no effect because other species can’t enter them.  

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Apparently destiny 2 has a playlist where you match only solo players, damn even after all this time bungie knows how to balance mm

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Ricochet has always been a total gimmick. It's cool on the sniper for sick montage clips and trickshots but lets not kid ourselves and act like it's a good core gameplay mechanic. Hell they added tracking aimbot projectiles to the Scattershot pellets after they ricochet and still pretty much no one uses the mechanic, the H5 scattershot is just a more inconsistent shotgun.

 

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14 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Can't get me to play that game, I remember people arguing to test it when it was free on PC or something but not gonna waste diskspace for that game tbh.

If we are talking about autos with ADS that's not really related to what I would like to see in Halo, I think there should only be classic zoom and all guns should behave exactly the same spread wise no matter if zoomed or not.
No idea why they forced ADS for every gun in H5 to begin with, still chasing the wrong crowd...

It’s hard to portray what I’m saying without having some understanding of Destiny. 

I don’t want the ADS part of the auto brought over. Just an accurate auto rifle. 

3 hours ago, Arlong said:

Apparently destiny 2 has a playlist where you match only solo players, damn even after all this time bungie knows how to balance mm

Quite the opposite. This was brought into play because people kept getting set up against stacked teams. 
Don't even get me started on the balancing issues with exotics and supers. 

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3 hours ago, Arlong said:

You act like you’ve never done that before, it shows I disagree with your viewpoints. I can tell you’re one of the people who search 4s in social a lot. Because like I said earlier, you didn’t find any solo players coming to the defense did you? I didn’t see any sort of thing on waypoint.

I didn't even down vote Beast or Ice when it was part of the reason the MCC thread got locked for a night. So no but nice try. 

And no I don't search Social in a team. I don't even have 3 friends who play Halo anymore. And I haven't since Reach. Most of my Halo friends moved to Playstation this gen. I just don't care if I lose 3-0 or 50-30 in an occasional match. 

And about finding people defending my point, your the only person here disagreeing with me. I don't go on Waypoint. 

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2 hours ago, Nokt said:

It’s hard to portray what I’m saying without having some understanding of Destiny. 

I don’t want the ADS part of the auto brought over. Just an accurate auto rifle. 

Quite the opposite. This was brought into play because people kept getting set up against stacked teams. 
Don't even get me started on the balancing issues with exotics and supers. 

Its just hard to explain a skill based automatic to people who only play Halo because we've never had one so Halo only players are sort of trained to automatically think its too easy or a noob weapon which is funny because if you're an FPS player who doesn't play Halo that thought never crosses your mind you just don't expect to snipe someone with it a lot of the time

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7 hours ago, Arlong said:

Apparently destiny 2 has a playlist where you match only solo players, damn even after all this time bungie knows how to balance mm

Cod4 had that for TDM

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17 minutes ago, Jake Teh Nub said:

Cod4 had that for TDM

Yeah, I enjoyed having a playlist that avoided parties or matchmaking options that avoided playing against premades as a solo player (League of Legends Solo/Duo comes to mind.) Even in unranked matches, it's often more fun to play with and/or against non-premades (being solo and matching a group that often intends to do ridiculous things that can ruin even non-competitive games.)

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1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

Its just hard to explain a skill based automatic to people who only play Halo because we've never had one so Halo only players are sort of trained to automatically think its too easy or a noob weapon which is funny because if you're an FPS player who doesn't play Halo that thought never crosses your mind you just don't expect to snipe someone with it a lot of the time

I don't think that automatic weapons are low skill, in PC titles weapons with a higher fire rate are harder to aim because you have to constantly track instead of only landing a hit every so often. Well most titles have killtimes so low it doesn't show up but thinking of Quake lightning-gun or machine gun where people A/D strafe to make your life harder.
The biggest problem with autos rn is that they have so much aim assist that once somebody is up close shooting at you it's like a timer running down until you die because it's hard to miss with them.

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6 hours ago, Nokt said:

It’s hard to portray what I’m saying without having some understanding of Destiny. 

I don’t want the ADS part of the auto brought over. Just an accurate auto rifle. 

Quite the opposite. This was brought into play because people kept getting set up against stacked teams. 
Don't even get me started on the balancing issues with exotics and supers. 

That shows bungie being smart though. They decided to give fans something that’d please them. You can’t tell me this playlist hasn’t hurt other playlist where stacked teams can match solos.

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SBMM can blow me, leave that shit in ranked, I'd rather getting my ass handed to me every 3rd game than have to try my hardest every game.

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Yeah, just recently downloaded Modern Warfare and the SBMM becomes very apparent rather quickly. Every game is a sweatfest with people going 15-8, 17-10, etc. If you don’t run an M4 with the Olympia and camp with claymore you’re pretty much at a giant disadvantage. Everybody’s jump shotting and playing like they have an audience watching them. 

Back in the day, you could hop on and just about every lobby had 1-2 rather skilled players on each team and the rest of everybody were either scrubs or just average. This allowed one to experiment with weapons that weren’t as good, and grind for camps and what not. Having that one other good player on the other team made for a fun experience. The same was true for Halo until recently. 

I know for a fact that everybody didn’t just suddenly become gods at video games; most people are either kinda bad or average at best. I’m what I like to think of as an above average player, but cannot seem to have any fun because every single match I’m playing against people who nonstop grind the game because my first few matches I play rather well and the MM system decides to just hand me lobbies filled with these types ad nauseam.

 

Fuck skill-based matchmaking lol 

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

I think on some level I take exception to their explanation of bloom and why they wouldn't just remove it from everything. I firmly believe that spamming your shots is almost always the right play its just annoyingly random. That randomly defeats the purpose and balancing that they propose the rest of the sandbox is tuned for. That's a totally insane situation/stance to take and if they truly felt that a max RoF DMR/Needle rifle was overpowered in comparison to the rest of the sandbox a reduction in RoF, zoom capabilities, or aim assist in those modes would make more sense than just letting bloom live. I think the only time bloom worked as intended was at insanely large distances and there are just better ways to address that than introducing insane moments when players are close to each other. Water under the bridge though I suppose

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1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

TLDR: SBMM kills social. 

Are you completely against it on all levels? Like I don't want it anywhere near as strict as ranked but I also wouldn't want 50s to be matching up against 1s. I think there should be at least some form of background SBMM/MMR whatever you want to call it. Even if it means 40s can match 20s, but won't match 10s - unless the game is dead and that's all that's searching lol. 

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26 minutes ago, JordanB said:

Are you completely against it on all levels? Like I don't want it anywhere near as strict as ranked but I also wouldn't want 50s to be matching up against 1s. I think there should be at least some form of background SBMM/MMR whatever you want to call it. Even if it means 40s can match 20s, but won't match 10s - unless the game is dead and that's all that's searching lol. 

There should be a buffer for poorly skilled players. New players, players with disabilities and players who are just really bad for whatever reason should have their own little cushy area to play in. It should be a consistent thing so if they do insanely well out of nowhere the algorithm should detect a smurf. But these people should have a buffer so they don't just get decked.

They should, with tweaking, have four brackets (100% open to suggestions on this):

1) Very low skill. This is the cushion as above. These people struggle to move two thumbsticks at once. They should not be matched with people that can. 

2) Low skill. Large bracket of people that know how to move and shoot, but not necessarily know how to play. The kind of people that take 5 seconds to pick a weapon up off the ground. Tool of destruction grenades.

3) Average skill. Massive bracket. These people know the way the game works and can shoot and run and pick up weapons. They know the map layouts generally but are there to just have fun. Level 2's can match with this group when needed.

4) Very good skill. These are the sweatiest of sweats. In order to avoid them having 900 year long queue times only to be matched against other sweats (which would be hypocrisy) they will be sprinkled in with the Average players but with even amounts per team. So if you're a level 4 the game will put another level 4 on the opposing team. Not a whole team of level 4's, but an even amount. Level 4's cannot match Level 1 and 2's. Ever.

Obviously these can be refined into larger/smaller brackets but they still need to be large. As I said above: I want is a mix of experiences with a mix of playstyles and players of all levels.

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Strict SBMM in social is dumb and defeats the purpose. There's nothing that I loathe more than winning a game in Overwatch and knowing for certain that I'm about to get stomped for the rest of the night because the game decided to punish me for winning. It's also why I love playing older CoDs on PC with server browsers.

But at the same time, total blowouts are fun for neither team and we have to remember that even H2 and 3 had some sort of skill matching in the background it just wasn't as strict as H5/newer CoD games. I think there are three distinct experiences people want: Ranked, Social and customs/server browser/anything goes. Obviously social is much closer to customs than ranked but there's still a difference. It's also why the H3 XP system was so damn good because even though people weren't sweating and trying their ass off, people still at least attempted to play for the win although in a fairly relaxed manner. 

Let's talk numbers:

Ranked allows players within 5-10 levels of skill to match one another, has strict party restrictions and guarantees a 50/50 chance of winning for either team. People want to have fair matches with decent teammates and don't mind waiting for a few minutes to find a decent match.
Priorities: Tight skill matching > party matching > connection > search times. 

Social should match people or almost ANY skill, go for let's say a 40-60 chance to eon for either team and have loose party restrictions where it tries to compensate for the party advantage by matching them against slightly better randoms. People want fast matches and the occasional blowout isn't the end of the world.
Priorities: Search times > connection > loose skill matching > soft party matching.


This about sums up how the social and ranked split should be achieved. We haven't had proper ranked and social in the same Halo game since 2010 and IMO this is the largest contributor to Halos nosedive right after the gameplay downgrades. 

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You know somebody at 343 is reading this and scratching their heads right now. BUT I THOUGHT THEY WANTED EVERY PLAYLIST TO BE UBERHARDCOREMASTERRACE RANKED?

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15 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

You know somebody at 343 is reading this and scratching their heads right now. BUT I THOUGHT THEY WANTED EVERY PLAYLIST TO BE UBERHARDCOREMASTERRACE RANKED?

I can't find the tweet as it was deleted, but Quinn was asked before H5's launch what playlists would be ranked and he responded "all of them" as if it was the most obvious thing in the world. It's just another one of these things people wouldn't get if they never played Halo before and were brought over from another big game they ruined franchise.

Then there's Menke who says shit like "if more people play BTB Fiesta than BTB then real BTB should just get cut and Fiesta should be the primary 8v8 playlist." This is why "343 still doesn't get it" is still a valid statement even after their recent efforts to make things right with the community and why I think Infinite is going to be mediocre at best even if it turns out to be a classic game (good one I know).

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