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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 hour ago, JordanB said:

If you're expecting a fair match in every single game, play ranked. Don't know how else I can put it. It's there right in front of you to play. No restrictions. You can "stfu your opinion is stoopid" all you want but that doesn't change that there's no reason for a 100% restriction on teams. 

You want to give priority that TO4 play against TO4? Ok. Then slowly go into searching other smaller teams. Ok. But to say TO4 should never play solos is a bad method for unranked game modes. I can't have fun by sitting in a searching lobby. 

Play infection, play action sack, I expect a fair match 8/10 times. And do you NEED to search 4s in social, is ranked not available for you? I do play ranked, but I also play social, I don’t expect to be curb stomped with no way to fight back though.

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27 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Play infection, play action sack, I expect a fair match 8/10 times. And do you NEED to search 4s in social, is ranked not available for you? I do play ranked, but I also play social, I don’t expect to be curb stomped with no way to fight back though.

So you're saying bec I have 3 friends of different skill levels I can only play infection with them. If I'm a 40 and my friend is a 20, no I don't really want to play ranked. It won't be fun for either of us. 

Stop acting like every. Single. Social game. Is a fucking pobstomp. It's not. 

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On 11/21/2019 at 1:37 PM, Snipe Three said:

The same way you make any other gun competitive/viable. You just make it accurate and then adjust RoF, aim assist, bullet magnetism and/or projectile speed. People automatically jump to recoil or spread because they think automatic but you can do other things like reduce clip size relative to the bullets needed to kill or not have a zoom function for the gun at all to adjust the distance people will be using it at and to prevent someone just spraying cross map for the entire game

I really would like to see how a Destiny type Auto would fit inside Halo's sandbox.

Rewards headshot damage
Slight recoil
Lower ROF than the auto's currently in Halo
5-9 headshots for perfect kill (depending on the archetype. Fast ROF vs Slow)


Typically lags a little behind it terms of the rest of the sandbox, (best ttk is .80 vs hand cannons .53 and pulse rifles .67), obviously we would have to tweak this up a little bit as Halo's ttks aren't quite that quick.

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17 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I really would like to see how a Destiny type Auto would fit inside Halo's sandbox.

Rewards headshot damage
Slight recoil
Lower ROF than the auto's currently in Halo
5-9 headshots for perfect kill (depending on the archetype. Fast ROF vs Slow)


Typically lags a little behind it terms of the rest of the sandbox, (best ttk is .80 vs hand cannons .53 and pulse rifles .67), obviously we would have to tweak this up a little bit as Halo's ttks aren't quite that quick.

h5 already has damage modifier for headshots with AR apparently.

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I dislike headshot modifier for autos, with spread and recoil mechanics people get headshots by accident and stuff. Like the lower rate of fire tho, could be used to argue for less aim assist since you don't need to track that perfectly anymore.

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44 minutes ago, znot said:

h5 already has damage modifier for headshots with AR apparently. 

 

28 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

I dislike headshot modifier for autos, with spread and recoil mechanics people get headshots by accident and stuff. Like the lower rate of fire tho, could be used to argue for less aim assist since you don't need to track that perfectly anymore.

You'd really have to play destiny to see what I'm saying, but when ADSing all of the primary weapons (hand cannons, pulse rifle, scout rifle) all have pretty small reticle sizes. They require a lot more aiming than something like the AR or SAW in Halo. There is slight recoil, but its not severe. There is also bloom/spread, its pretty slight too. It removes a lot of the randomness of auto's in Halo.

I'm not really sure it would work within Halo as Destiny is a ADS heavy game. It would take a lot of tweaking as you probably wouldn't want to bring the how the gun works unscoped over. But again, I'd be interested in seeing a slow firing, tight reticle, headshot modifier AR in Halo.

Video showing some kills with Auto in Destiny

 
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Can't get me to play that game, I remember people arguing to test it when it was free on PC or something but not gonna waste diskspace for that game tbh.

If we are talking about autos with ADS that's not really related to what I would like to see in Halo, I think there should only be classic zoom and all guns should behave exactly the same spread wise no matter if zoomed or not.
No idea why they forced ADS for every gun in H5 to begin with, still chasing the wrong crowd...

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1 hour ago, JordanB said:

So you're saying bec I have 3 friends of different skill levels I can only play infection with them. If I'm a 40 and my friend is a 20, no I don't really want to play ranked. It won't be fun for either of us. 

Stop acting like every. Single. Social game. Is a fucking pobstomp. It's not. 

You’re right it’s not, but when it’s against a to4 it sure usually is. The FACT is, the games aren’t fair against 4s. No one will support you, when they’re the typical solo or 2s player. Heck’s I Read all the time of people who play btb tired of matching a full 8 man which I think even btb needs some form of party matching. I’m not even asking to not be able to match solos period, what I want is the inability to match 4 people solo searching. No mmr is fixing that, especially in halo.

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1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

I dislike headshot modifier for autos, with spread and recoil mechanics people get headshots by accident and stuff. Like the lower rate of fire tho, could be used to argue for less aim assist since you don't need to track that perfectly anymore.

Dude that’s a form of recoil control, deal with it. There’s a reason there’s horizontal and vertical recoil in games.

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3 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Dude that’s a form of recoil control, deal with it. There’s a reason there’s horizontal and vertical recoil in games.

What do I have to deal with? Recoil is annoying nonsense imo - if you can control it or not, sure every Call of Destiny: Battle Royale has this shit these days but there are shooters that work perfectly fine with no recoil at all. You are acting like recoil is something that Halo totally needs...

And I am sure there is a reason why it is in games, kinda doubt they would put it in by accident.

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1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

headshot modifier for autos

An automatic weapon with perfect accuracy (no spread, bloom, or recoil) that only significantly rewards consecutive headshots could work in Halo, I believe.  The Plasma Rifle kills in 10 bodyshots (1.2 seconds) or 4 consecutive headshots (0.4 seconds).  

Headshot / Damage Modifier 

1 - 1.25x

2 - 1.75x

3 - 3x 

4 - 4x 

So you see, the first 2 consecutive headshots are only worth 3 bodyshots.  The following 2 consecutive headshots are worth a whopping 7 bodyshots.  That’s why good base player movement is important to this version of Halo.  A player standing still could get melted in less than half a second where it would be an amazing play to land 4 consecutive headshots on a quick, crisply moving player.  

 

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1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Can't get me to play that game, I remember people arguing to test it when it was free on PC or something but not gonna waste diskspace for that game tbh.

If we are talking about autos with ADS that's not really related to what I would like to see in Halo, I think there should only be classic zoom and all guns should behave exactly the same spread wise no matter if zoomed or not.
No idea why they forced ADS for every gun in H5 to begin with, still chasing the wrong crowd...

I think the accurate AR in Halo would have to actually not have a zoom function. Unless you want it to actually just replace or become interchangeable with your standard BR/DMR/Pistol type of weapon. Zoom battles between people using autos from a distance would just be silly. Not being able to zoom in, but still fire accurately, is what would be the downside when using a gun that descoped so well. I'd much rather see that be an option in the sandbox though in the place of generic utility weapon #8. Requiring people to track but keeping the RoF low enough so that actually aiming for the head was rewarded would create a new but still skillful gun for us to have in the series. Part of me is actually shocked that this isn't what bungie did with the AR when you listen to their reasoning for the BR having spread etc

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55 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I think the accurate AR in Halo would have to actually not have a zoom function. 

you mean the way halo has been for 'since ever' until HAL5

 

 

I think the CE and Reach and even 3 AR had it okay with bloom. You could pump the trigger and shoot it in burst like a BR to hit ppl further away, then when closer unleash.

 

I know Reach is the only AR to show the bloom, but i mean all 3 AR's let you burst fire for better accuracy and distance (they have bloom is what I mean)

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I guess the zero bloom needle rifle is essentially that since you can hold down the trigger.

Overall I don't really know tho, I think autos are not part of the major weapons you should start to design when making a Halo game, I think I would always start with the utility weapon, then get rockets and sniper right since those 3 are probably the most important guns, everything else should be build around that in my opinion.
What I want to say here is that this discussion on it's own is highly theoretical without the context of the other weapons, and with autos I feel like testing is more important than with most other guns even to get it exactly right.

It would be nice if the weapons were balanced this way, it reminds me a lot of how you do it in arena shooters for the PC but the sad reality probably is that a lot of shit is designed with campaign and factions (covenant, forerunners) in mind. Having one out of every "class" for each faction and so on.
We are not talking about a game that is trying to make a weapon sandbox for competitive play so we will most likely end up with a mess and everybody can write 1000 word essays on how much potential there is that wasn't used.

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1 hour ago, znot said:

you mean the way halo has been for 'since ever' until HAL5

 

 

I think the CE and Reach and even 3 AR had it okay with bloom. You could pump the trigger and shoot it in burst like a BR to hit ppl further away, then when closer unleash.

 

I know Reach is the only AR to show the bloom, but i mean all 3 AR's let you burst fire for better accuracy and distance (they have bloom is what I mean)

Yeah but we're talking about a weapon that would be nothing like the typical Halo AR outside of being automatic. Something that would be hard to aim/skill based and accurate for mid range battles. The way autos work in Halo could simply be removed for all time as far as competitive settings have been concerned post CE. In Halo 5 they were removed after a post from 343 themselves confirming that there is no discernible skill difference between capable players when using it. That whole design is total trash outside of casual/vehicle gameplay

When it comes to arena style 4v4 competitive gameplay in Halo the weapon designers doing our automatic weapons have needed a rather large kick in the ass for about 15 years. Its really weird how they're just allowed to either be too easy/effective at close range to include in real competitive games or so bad they're just clutter on the map its such a stagnant design space for no apparent reason

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2 hours ago, Arlong said:

You’re right it’s not, but when it’s against a to4 it sure usually is. The FACT is, the games aren’t fair against 4s. No one will support you, when they’re the typical solo or 2s player. Heck’s I Read all the time of people who play btb tired of matching a full 8 man which I think even btb needs some form of party matching. I’m not even asking to not be able to match solos period, what I want is the inability to match 4 people solo searching. No mmr is fixing that, especially in halo.

Tough guy down voting me for having a debate. God forbid we do that around here

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2 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

Yeah but we're talking about a weapon that would be nothing like the typical Halo AR outside of being automatic. Something that would be hard to aim/skill based and accurate for mid range battles. The way autos work in Halo could simply be removed for all time as far as competitive settings have been concerned post CE. In Halo 5 they were removed after a post from 343 themselves confirming that there is no discernible skill difference between capable players when using it. That whole design is total trash outside of casual/vehicle gameplay

When it comes to arena style 4v4 competitive gameplay in Halo the weapon designers doing our automatic weapons have needed a rather large kick in the ass for about 15 years. Its really weird how they're just allowed to either be too easy/effective at close range to include in real competitive games or so bad they're just clutter on the map its such a stagnant design space for no apparent reason

But aren't you just creating another utility rifle this way? It's pretty much the TU Needle Rifle or the H5 fully auto Carbine variant in WZ. 

What's the point of spawning people with the utility and then a full auto variant of the utility as the secondary? 

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

But aren't you just creating another utility rifle this way? It's pretty much the TU Needle Rifle or the H5 fully auto Carbine variant in WZ. 

What's the point of spawning people with the utility and then a full auto variant of the utility as the secondary? 

I think this just exposes the recent Halo sandbox in some ways. Part of the reason I was saying it couldn't have a scope was to dodge weird zoom battles with automatics but the other was to reinforce the difficulty of using it to cross map the same way you'd use your traditional BR or whatever. They would overlap in many cases though and as long as they're similarly difficult as well as different that's fine but the reason it feels like a utility weapon is because we don't often use varying degrees of effective ranges. 343 tried to sort of address that later on in H5 when they made an effort to make the DMR/BR/pistol/carbine different on some level. We don't actually have mid range weapons unless you want to count mostly forgotten weapons like a needler or maybe rockets but that's more positional gameplay than anything. We have any range sniper rifles and ping you from anywhere reskins of a utility weapon usually then you swing way back in the other direction to close range. Figuring out how to have weapon differences like that is the only way to effectively make a DMR and a BR different enough to justify the existence of both outside of aesthetic appeal. An automatic weapon is just a great vehicle for that kind of thing because its a lot easier to make that feel and look different than it is to make 3 different single shot rifles/pistols play differently and be something people can pick up and understand instantly when they first start playing. 

Its less about roles/the issue surrounding creating so many different utility weapons though and more about cleaning up whatever insanity has been going on this long and spawning things like the spiker or smg in 4v4 focused gameplay. The utility weapon problem kind of started with the AR/PR/Spiker/SMG/etc but none of us really would've noticed or cared since those weapons are generally removed immediately and frowned upon when its time for competitive modes. The PR specifically hurts because it actually was different and had a role that mattered in CE only to later be turned into an alien shield stripping weapon who's almost sole existence is to either get railed by players with real guns or to pick up a quick beatdown for nearly the entire series

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5 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

I guess the zero bloom needle rifle is essentially that since you can hold down the trigger.

Overall I don't really know tho, I think autos are not part of the major weapons you should start to design when making a Halo game, I think I would always start with the utility weapon, then get rockets and sniper right since those 3 are probably the most important guns, everything else should be build around that in my opinion.
What I want to say here is that this discussion on it's own is highly theoretical without the context of the other weapons, and with autos I feel like testing is more important than with most other guns even to get it exactly right.

It would be nice if the weapons were balanced this way, it reminds me a lot of how you do it in arena shooters for the PC but the sad reality probably is that a lot of shit is designed with campaign and factions (covenant, forerunners) in mind. Having one out of every "class" for each faction and so on.
We are not talking about a game that is trying to make a weapon sandbox for competitive play so we will most likely end up with a mess and everybody can write 1000 word essays on how much potential there is that wasn't used.

Campaign doesn't exactly benefit from having a bunch of worthless dupe weapons lying around either.

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16 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Campaign doesn't exactly benefit from having a bunch of worthless dupe weapons lying around either.

It does though.  Could Brutes just use a Plasma Rifle like Elites?  Sure but the Spiker is so much more brutish.  The weapons a species uses tells the player about who they are.  Brutes smash things with a giant hammer.  Elites wield a samurai sword.  A more refined and noble species uses a more refined and noble weapon.  

Are the hammer and sword similar in function?  Yes, they’re both close range melee weapons.  Do they have differences that make each one viable in different scenarios?  Absolutely. A Hammer can flip vehicles with knockback.  A Sword can attack from any direction with lunge.  

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Your argument there is kind of self defeating though.

You could  just as easily give brutes a "spiker" that *functions differently* and isnt just a reskinned automatic. Which by the way SPV3 does, with its tracking burst fire version.

I more or less agree that the gravity hammer and sword are different enough.  The spiker is absolutely pointless beyond aesthetics though.

Same with the Carbine.  Ce already had the elites with a mid range weapon (plasma rifle)...then Halo 2 nerfed it into an inferior version of the SMG and added the redundant carbine to fill that niche.

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12 minutes ago, Boyo said:

It does though.  Could Brutes just use a Plasma Rifle like Elites?  Sure but the Spiker is so much more brutish.  The weapons a species uses tells the player about who they are.  Brutes smash things with a giant hammer.  Elites wield a samurai sword.  A more refined and noble species uses a more refined and noble weapon.  

Are the hammer and sword similar in function?  Yes, they’re both close range melee weapons.  Do they have differences that make each one viable in different scenarios?  Absolutely. A Hammer can flip vehicles with knockback.  A Sword can attack from any direction with lunge.  

First of all, the spiker might be the single most worthless weapon in the entire series. Second, why not just create all NEW weapons for the brutes, with new functionality (not just brute-themed riffs on existing weapons), so that they actually feel like distinctly different enemies for once and not just K-Mart elites?

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@Ramirez77 @Larry Sizemore  I agree that the Spiker could be more unique.

What if the Spiker was the only dual wieldable weapon in the game and dual wielding didn’t disable melee or grenade throwing?  So if you have one Spiker and walk over another, you are now dual wielding.  In adddition, spikes penetrate vehicle armor and damage impacted occupants.  Furthermore, spikes can ricochet of walls for indirect fire.  Projectile drop once past medium range, minor vertical recoil while firing one weapon, and major vertical recoil while firing both weapons limit the weapon’s effective range, in contrast to the Plasma Rifle which is perfectly accurate.  Is that different enough?

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3 hours ago, Basu said:

What's the point of spawning people with the utility and then a full auto variant of the utility as the secondary? 

A double shot capable BR is a utility and a full auto variant of the utility all in one weapon.

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