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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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The autos role in halo 2-3 was being an anti vehicle weapon u had off spawn. The bigger target negated the spread issue 

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12 minutes ago, Riddler said:

The autos role in halo 2-3 was being an anti vehicle weapon u had off spawn. The bigger target negated the spread issue 

Yeah I think a weapon for that is okay but its crazy how we keep spawning with it by default in modes and on maps that feature no vehicles. I think CE is the game where it (maybe accidentally?) made the most sense in any game mode/map because of the increased melee distance, BLB and quick camo

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Ar does give slightly more health damage in later halos. Its just never significant enough unless ur in a regen. And that ce stuff isnt really pro AR as a concept/weapon. AR is also good for lighting camo but camo was useless on 2 and was barely on any maps. In ce camo is on every single map. In h3 camo is on some maps at least but radar, shorter duration, and weaker camo (cant throw nades or beatdown and remain camp, cant quick camo) made it pretty insignificant. In reach camo doesnt even work when moving. 

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52 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I really think the fix is just making the AR both good and skill based. I guarantee you that it would jedi mind trick some people who insist on AR starts into wanting the competitive/skill based starting options without realizing it. It doesn't have to be as dumbed down as the AR has been since CE. Even the worst of the worst can use the ARs in CoD for example and they mostly shoot straight if you're actually aiming. Obviously it would need to be a little different than the CoD guns but the point is mostly that its okay to give bad players weapons that they actually need to aim with even though bungie/343 seem really scared of doing that. I really have no idea why we keep including this terrible gun in the sandbox that basically equates to a really shitty shotgun

How would you make the AR competitively viable tho? The CoD ARs might have recoil and require high accuracy but they are still total spray n pray noob crutches.

343 actually tried to make the AR somewhat skillful with the H5 sandbox patch that made the reticle super small and added a headshot bonus, but suprise surprise it has way too much bullet magnetism and is only good for comboing with the plasma pistol/rifle for an even easier noob combo than PP/PR + BR.

I see two options:

  • The CS route: Autos have significant recoil and spread increase when spraying (bloom). Tapping and bursting is part of the skill. This translates very poor in Halo IMO as there is no movement accuracy penalty, recoil more often than not leads to free headshots and the time to kill is so long that it takes tons of trigger discipline to kill someone outside of CQC. Because if the weapon is supposed to be viable TTK wise at mid-range with tons of bloom/recoil  it will absolutely shred up close, it's just a given.
  • Something like the Focus Rifle/Sentinel Beam but with a headshot bonus: No bloom, no recoil, rewards time on target. Basically just a fully auto BR. This could work, but probably feels weird turning the AR into a recoil + spreadless weapon that is actually hard to use and casuals are probably gonna hate it. And yes descoping would be insanely easy. Also begs the question why we need this AND a Magnum/DMR.
    Honestly I could see this as map pickup, slap a 3x zoom on the sentinel beam and give it a headshot bonus now that's a competitively viable auto that is skillful and straightforward to use.

Personally I don't have a problem with the AR being a noob-friendly secondary for cleanups that also has cool perks like faster swap time, faster reload, more melee range, quick camo etc. I'd be down to test a recoil & bloomless AR with a headshot bonus but I've used similar weapons in CE PC mods and it feels weird.

43 minutes ago, znot said:

No bungie has justification, they're actually a smart dev. Their reasoning behind bringing the AR back was the melee wasn't used much while dual weilding SMGS cause SMGS were only viable dual weidling. Their solution bring back the AR so ppl could melee again.

 

Though after listening to it again, it does slightly sound like PR bullshit. maybe I'll retract the above, but I certainly get their logic more than 343's. 

 

 

Yeah I've watched this vidoc multiple times. Isn't this the one where they say the AR is "the perfect starting weapon?". Yikes. They had the right idea that ditching the SMG and making the starting weapon non-dualwieldable (is that a word lol) but they failed halfway through their goal. The AR still has piss poor range, is a nooby spray weapon and AR start games will pretty much always snowball out of control as soon as one time grabs snipers and BRs.

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47 minutes ago, Basu said:

How would you make the AR competitively viable tho? The CoD ARs might have recoil and require high accuracy but they are still total spray n pray noob crutches.

343 actually tried to make the AR somewhat skillful with the H5 sandbox patch that made the reticle super small and added a headshot bonus, but suprise surprise it has way too much bullet magnetism and is only good for comboing with the plasma pistol/rifle for an even easier noob combo than PP/PR + BR.

I see two options:

  • The CS route: Autos have significant recoil and spread increase when spraying (bloom). Tapping and bursting is part of the skill. This translates very poor in Halo IMO as there is no movement accuracy penalty, recoil more often than not leads to free headshots and the time to kill is so long that it takes tons of trigger discipline to kill someone outside of CQC. Because if the weapon is supposed to be viable TTK wise at mid-range with tons of bloom/recoil  it will absolutely shred up close, it's just a given.
  • Something like the Focus Rifle/Sentinel Beam but with a headshot bonus: No bloom, no recoil, rewards time on target. Basically just a fully auto BR. This could work, but probably feels weird turning the AR into a recoil + spreadless weapon that is actually hard to use and casuals are probably gonna hate it. And yes descoping would be insanely easy. Also begs the question why we need this AND a Magnum/DMR.
    Honestly I could see this as map pickup, slap a 3x zoom on the sentinel beam and give it a headshot bonus now that's a competitively viable auto that is skillful and straightforward to use.

Personally I don't have a problem with the AR being a noob-friendly secondary for cleanups that also has cool perks like faster swap time, faster reload, more melee range, quick camo etc. I'd be down to test a recoil & bloomless AR with a headshot bonus but I've used similar weapons in CE PC mods and it feels weird.

Yeah I've watched this vidoc multiple times. Isn't this the one where they say the AR is "the perfect starting weapon?". Yikes. They had the right idea that ditching the SMG and making the starting weapon non-dualwieldable (is that a word lol) but they failed halfway through their goal. The AR still has piss poor range, is a nooby spray weapon and AR start games will pretty much always snowball out of control as soon as one time grabs snipers and BRs.

The same way you make any other gun competitive/viable. You just make it accurate and then adjust RoF, aim assist, bullet magnetism and/or projectile speed. People automatically jump to recoil or spread because they think automatic but you can do other things like reduce clip size relative to the bullets needed to kill or not have a zoom function for the gun at all to adjust the distance people will be using it at and to prevent someone just spraying cross map for the entire game

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2 hours ago, Riddler said:

Dude no. Like if u wanted to you could 50-0 a team with br starts of the same caliber. The ar cannot contest a sniper at all and snipe is on almost every map. And ik the br in h3 wasnt much better. 

It's almost like I said that it wasn't ideal.

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Also, one of the things about halos weapon design that I like the most is that autos are only situational weapons while the mains are semi autos. H5 didn't feel as much like halo for me because you could run around with autos adsing everyone no problem like it was a more common fps game. Probably subjective but whatever.

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I would start thinking about autos when the utility weapon is set, not much point in testing autos without a solid starter gun.
That said less aim assist and bullet magnetism sounds good, I am fine with having less spread but using projectiles to once again limit cross mapping. I don't really feel like automatic weapons are needed but having one for people who cannot aim the precision weapons is probably healthy. I think melee range should be the same across guns so it feels consistent when to press the button but maybe the melee animation could be over quicker when performed with an AR, something minor that gives the weapon a closs range theme.

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16 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

I would start thinking about autos when the utility weapon is set, not much point in testing autos without a solid starter gun.
That said less aim assist and bullet magnetism sounds good, I am fine with having less spread but using projectiles to once again limit cross mapping. I don't really feel like automatic weapons are needed but having one for people who cannot aim the precision weapons is probably healthy. I think melee range should be the same across guns so it feels consistent when to press the button but maybe the melee animation could be over quicker when performed with an AR, something minor that gives the weapon a closs range theme.

Like ce? Ar had the fastest melee.

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2 hours ago, Mr Grim said:

It's almost like I said that it wasn't ideal.

I just don't agree with description. Sitting on a foldable chair instead of a couch isn't ideal. Halo 3's ar start is like sitting of vibrating spikes instead of sitting on a chair thats on fire (h2 smg) 

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8 hours ago, Mr Grim said:

They admitted smg starts were bad and then made the AR better in h3 and reach as a result. It wasnt ideal but it was certainly better than the smg.

And thus, demonstrated that they did not understand why it was bad.

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10 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

And thus, demonstrated that they did not understand why it was bad.

I mean really we should be making fun of bungie for the pistol in H3/Reach. They basically wanted the H5 starting weapons in both of those games but forgot that people with thumbs and insanely terrible balancing made the actual tuning of the ar/pistol in those two games a pretty pathetic joke

Unless those pistols were quite literally an inside joke at bungie it was just a swing and a miss on balancing because internally they were just bad at the game and thus didn't know any better

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Man, 343 got rid of party matching for social. Now 4s once again can pub stomp, no problem. Gosh this mmr shit isn’t cutting it! It’s not strict enough. 

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I might get the new Tesla Cybertruck

 

EJ8_KlbWkAAF05O.png:large

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6 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I mean really we should be making fun of bungie for the pistol in H3/Reach. They basically wanted the H5 starting weapons in both of those games but forgot that people with thumbs and insanely terrible balancing made the actual tuning of the ar/pistol in those two games a pretty pathetic joke

Unless those pistols were quite literally an inside joke at bungie it was just a swing and a miss on balancing because internally they were just bad at the game and thus didn't know any better

The Reach Magnum was at least kind of tolerable, bloom and spread were obviously cancer but it was fairly effective compared to other sidearms in the series

The H3 and H2 pistols are the biggest POS weapons probably in the series. Wtf. 

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9 hours ago, Arlong said:

Man, 343 got rid of party matching for social. Now 4s once again can pub stomp, no problem. Gosh this mmr shit isn’t cutting it! It’s not strict enough. 

So do you only want 4 to match against 4s in Social? I don't think we need finding games in social to be that strict do we?

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1 hour ago, JordanB said:

So do you only want 4 to match against 4s in Social? I don't think we need finding games in social to be that strict do we?

Yes I do. When you search full party you don’t deserve to match people searching solo since at that point it’s an obvious 50-12 game nearly every time. Solo and duos finally could search without the fear of matching a guy like Precellence playing with 3 other people. 
they also could of made it so 4s could match two teams of two, a to3 and 1 solo. Partial team matching is a good thing.

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

Yes I do. When you search full party you don’t deserve to match people searching solo since at that point it’s an obvious 50-12 game nearly every time. Solo and duos finally could search without the fear of matching a guy like Precellence playing with 3 other people. 
they also could of made it so 4s could match two teams of two, a to3 and 1 solo. Partial team matching is a good thing.

If you have a proper MMR system there's no reason to restrict TO4 to only match against TO4 for Social game modes. Social shouldn't be designed to make every game feel sweaty - doesn't Halo 5 already have this problem? If I have a TO4 going into Fiesta and it takes me 10 minutes to find a match because there's no other TO4 out there searching then I'm just going to play a different game.

If you want to do partial team matchmaking I'd probably be ok with that, but at the end of the day it's Social. Look at COD, you select "team deathmatch" and it puts you into a game within seconds. If Halo Social game modes are so restrictive that it takes several minutes to consistently find matches then people are going to get bored and move on quickly. Completely restrictive matchmaking should be in ranked only. Social needs a lot more leeway.

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25 minutes ago, JordanB said:

If you have a proper MMR system there's no reason to restrict TO4 to only match against TO4 for Social game modes. Social shouldn't be designed to make every game feel sweaty - doesn't Halo 5 already have this problem? If I have a TO4 going into Fiesta and it takes me 10 minutes to find a match because there's no other TO4 out there searching then I'm just going to play a different game.

If you want to do partial team matchmaking I'd probably be ok with that, but at the end of the day it's Social. Look at COD, you select "team deathmatch" and it puts you into a game within seconds. If Halo Social game modes are so restrictive that it takes several minutes to consistently find matches then people are going to get bored and move on quickly. Completely restrictive matchmaking should be in ranked only. Social needs a lot more leeway.

Social also shouldn’t make every game feel like there’s little effort to take the win. The fact is mcc doesn’t have a proper mmr, don’t want sweat fest matches don’t search 4s, it’s as simple as that. And that’s fiesta anyway, they should allow some leeway, but when searching team slayer or something like that, you do not deserve to match solo players. I find it funny how the only ones complaining were those who consistently search 4s in social, yet not one who solo plays was complaining, oh yeah because for once we finally were guaranteed fair matches,  70% of the time(no telling if the teammates or enemies are sweats). I’m good but when I end up matching a to4 it doesn’t matter how good I am, that teams going to win(I end up going positive a decent amount of times though). Fuck the solo guy right because you apparently deserve to have a sweat less match(like I said search solo or duo if you don’t want that). 
In cod you can literally carry your team to victory because cod is less about team shooting than halo is. People are also a little less brain dead when it comes to that game.

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

Social also shouldn’t make every game feel like there’s little effort to take the win. 

Again, it's social. I shouldn't need to try my 100% hardest in order to make the game close. Blowouts are going to happen in social - it's inevitable due to the fact that it's supposed to be more relaxing than competitive. That doesn't mean a TO4 is going to sweep 4 randoms every time. Unless that TO4 is playing the same way they would in ranked. In which case whatever TO4 they match up against they'd likely win anyway.

And it won't, if we had an MMR that does it's job. Don't match a 50 with a 10. Boom. Not that hard.

1 hour ago, Arlong said:

you do not deserve to match solo players.

Really? I don't deserve to find matches in a game mode where ranks don't matter because you as a random don't want to lose? Well ffs if you don't want to lose so badly maybe you should go play some ranked. Yanno, where your teammates might actually care just as much as you. 

If losing in a social game really bothers you, maybe you aren't playing Social the right way. 

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I agree with Tommy Kost. Social is meant to be a wasteland where anything goes. It's not supposed to be serious, and with that should not have a serious matching system. Party Matching should be a Ranked feature because that's where fair matches matter.

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12 hours ago, Shekkles said:

I might get the new Tesla Cybertruck

 

EJ8_KlbWkAAF05O.png:large

You forgot the smashed window.

 

A general thought i had regarding depth in games reading the last few pages.  Does anybody feel that the obsessive focus on "balance" and "polish" is ruining games?  Halo sure but also just gaming in general.  Having a stable, performant and balanced game is great, but i think it can go too far sometimes.  If you polish every single rough edge, things like ghost jumps and BXRs disappear.  Weapons become SO BALANCED that they really all just revert to the mean and you end up with a sandbox full of redundancies.

 

Also, things like button glitches and ghost jumps aren't things that were purposefully designed.  IIRC (might be wrong, so call me out if I am) bungie was aware of those things before release but decided to just "not fix them" and see what happened.  That very well may have simply been an issue of resource constraints but either way, to their credit they allowed the bug to become a feature.  Gaming is kind of at the point where little idiosyncrasies like that need to be purposefully designed now, but im not sure you can "recapture the magic" by say programming a double-shot into a weapon.

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Social should use H5's system: Parties get matched against other parties OR solos who are of better individual skill. This is a shitty solution for ranked but works perfectly for something like social which should be more relaxed but no completely "anything goes" like a server/custom browser.

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2 hours ago, JordanB said:

Again, it's social. I shouldn't need to try my 100% hardest in order to make the game close. Blowouts are going to happen in social - it's inevitable due to the fact that it's supposed to be more relaxing than competitive. That doesn't mean a TO4 is going to sweep 4 randoms every time. Unless that TO4 is playing the same way they would in ranked. In which case whatever TO4 they match up against they'd likely win anyway.

And it won't, if we had an MMR that does it's job. Don't match a 50 with a 10. Boom. Not that hard.

Really? I don't deserve to find matches in a game mode where ranks don't matter because you as a random don't want to lose? Well ffs if you don't want to lose so badly maybe you should go play some ranked. Yanno, where your teammates might actually care just as much as you. 

If losing in a social game really bothers you, maybe you aren't playing Social the right way. 

It’s not fucking about ranked! Gosh stfu with that bullshit. The fact is I as a player want fair matches, in almost everything that’s pvp. If you don’t wish to try your heart out then solo is an option. But don’t get mad when people quit or afk in the match, because at that point it’s a total blow out.  Even with an mmr it does what you’re bitching about, forcing you to basically sweat. H5 mmr does it’s job, it’s population is just that crappy.

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3 hours ago, Arlong said:

It’s not fucking about ranked! Gosh stfu with that bullshit. The fact is I as a player want fair matches, in almost everything that’s pvp. If you don’t wish to try your heart out then solo is an option. But don’t get mad when people quit or afk in the match, because at that point it’s a total blow out.  Even with an mmr it does what you’re bitching about, forcing you to basically sweat. H5 mmr does it’s job, it’s population is just that crappy.

If you're expecting a fair match in every single game, play ranked. Don't know how else I can put it. It's there right in front of you to play. No restrictions. You can "stfu your opinion is stoopid" all you want but that doesn't change that there's no reason for a 100% restriction on teams. 

You want to give priority that TO4 play against TO4? Ok. Then slowly go into searching other smaller teams. Ok. But to say TO4 should never play solos is a bad method for unranked game modes. I can't have fun by sitting in a searching lobby. 

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