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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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10 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Nah, that's actually what you're saying.

It literally isn’t. And I’ve had to explain your issues with consistently arguing in fallacies (straw mans) before, because you literally do not read my shit and make wrong, passive aggressive remarks with a weird ass confidence. This isn’t the first time. You do not know how to argue.

10 hours ago, Nokt said:

Nothing the heretic does invalidates 343GS words/actions.

"The sacred Rings, what are they?" "And those who made the rings what happened to them?" "Tartarus the Prophets have betrayed us."
You can even hear the pain in the Arbiters voice when he says it. Not sure how any of that is a "gotcha" moment.

The flood are also the enemy of humanity. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Except this isn't a real conversation. If you compacted our time spent on this I'd doubt we'd reach over an hour or two. These are days/months that the arbiter had to dwell on these thoughts. I already listed a subreddit full of people who have given up lifelong religions, heres another r/exmormon. Unless you want to go into a long rant about how the Arbiters characteristic mirror our own I don't see how this is relevant at all. We are more like Tartarus or the Prophets if anything, given the fact that we have the knowledge and still persist that our viewpoints are correct.

I... didn't even know ignoring users was a thing....

How do you figure. The Arbiter decides to listen to the heretic who in turn tries to shoot him. I guess what I should say is, in a scenario where we aren’t going by the numbers, accepting things on a whim, that action would almost always result in a quick turn away. Or realistically should. The dude used his own argument to trap and attempt to put a bullet in your head. Why would you listen to his point when he tried to kill you while arguing you were gonna kill yourself, lmao. 

I explained the implication of the gotcha in dialogue before that. Not following. Although, I personally think the full scene is a mess when looked at. Like the Arbiter saying the Prophets betrayed them when he has no fucking idea if they intentionally duped him for malicious reasons or were just as oblivious as he and Tartarus were, but well meaning in their adherence. Since he never actually got their side but makes the judgement anyway. Almost invalidating his own journey to not just believe shit he sees/hears in the same string of words intent on developing it.

And you’re missing my point. And oddly strengthening it. We can string our argument into and hour or two’s formal debate, probably pretty easily. A guaranteed 15 minutes at the least if you’re stringy. Longer than Halo 2’s cutscene runtime in some cases, and much longer than any interaction the Arbiter has with detractors in that runtime in any. So, again, how do you figure he’s gonna come to any conclusion when we’ve still been talking longer, and more in depth, with no real leeway. Even then, as I said, the responses from the Arbiter to them number in the single digits. Let alone the number of interactions. We’re not actually told or shown anything in that time. He just changed. He legitimately goes from thinking of the Chief as a demon and snarking at him with religious fervour, telling him the rings are sacred, ignoring the three others in the room, and not learning anything, remaining steadfast as I’d expect, to suddenly considering zomboi’s words, to allying with said enemies, and denouncing the rings and Prophets, the center of his life, as full on lies. That is the literal line of progression in the end for that arc post Gravemind “revelation”. It could be bullet points in a boardroom. It should be. But it’s the unironic story we have. No depth. No explanation. Nothing to it. No actual arc. You just jump from state to state. No in between. Not a surprise when the game was famously rushed and had a troubled dev cycle.

 

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The thing about Multi posts is that I'm still enticed to read them past the first 3 sentences even if I think what he's saying is stupid.

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It literally isn’t. And I’ve had to explain your issues with consistently arguing in fallacies (straw mans) before, because you literally do not read my shit and make wrong, passive aggressive remarks with a weird ass confidence. This isn’t the first time. You do not know how to argue.

You have been arguing for ten pages how you think the Arbiter's turn was nonsense because fAiTh 2 stROnK, and as with every argument you get into, literally everyone else disagrees.

You're really invested in saying that I'm wrong when I, the most contrarian Halo personality on the planet, am finding myself in agreement with the majority. Something reeeaaaally doesn't add up there.

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Isn't there a saying that goes something like "if everyone you meet in life is the asshole, maybe you're the asshole".

I'm not calling anyone an asshole, but maybe the point stands.

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No point running PC Reach tournaments tbh, Console and PC events are both going to be played with controllers and a 60 FPS cap

 

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3 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I, the most contrarian Halo personality on the planet

The most modest too.

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Let me tell you, no one is more contrarian than me. I am the most contrary person you'll ever see. Believe me!

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3 hours ago, JordanB said:

Isn't there a saying that goes something like "if everyone you meet in life is the asshole, maybe you're the asshole".

I'm not calling anyone an asshole, but maybe the point stands.

You could just say it to my face over bushbeating, lol.

4 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

You have been arguing for ten pages how you think the Arbiter's turn was nonsense because fAiTh 2 stROnK, and as with every argument you get into, literally everyone else disagrees.

You're really invested in saying that I'm wrong when I, the most contrarian Halo personality on the planet, am finding myself in agreement with the majority. Something reeeaaaally doesn't add up there.

I'm only saying your summation of my points is wrong. I don't care about how you view a storypoint, or your arguments, because my problem is that you unironically can't argue properly and I have to reiterate shit I say every time we interact. I don't invest much time into arguing with you for that reason. Even if I cared to prove myself right, it wouldn't be to you.

I also, again, don't care if I'm in a minority. We have like, 5 people here who actually talk and engage in depth. I'm not gonna take it harshly if those 5 disagree with me, lol. Aaaaaaand arguing your own nature doesn't really prove anything. It just shows that sometimes you run with the grain. And call other people out for going against grains. Whenever it suits you. I'd expect it. It's not a solid point.

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America deserves the Truth

 

"I'm the Prophet of Truth and I approve this message."

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2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I'm only saying your summation of my points is wrong.

Uh-huh.

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But I've also seen just as many people who spend hours debating atheistic people on the merits of religion and not changing. Because they just believe what they want, regardless of the argument. It's anecdotal, hence my point on the Arbiter's faith hinging on a 30 year war, in a fight that would end up being for nothing.

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And as I said to Nokt earlier, if we can't come to an agreement on a shitty sci-fi franchise after arguing for literal days, throwing walls at each other, and others, how in the hell is the Arbiter going to come to an agreement with his mortal enemies, and drop something he's been bred to believe his entire life, over a few scant conversations. It just doesn't wash.

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However, I think this entire, multi-day debate is actually the perfect reason I don't believe the Arbiter would follow through on this. You and I could go, and have been going back and forth, forever. We have arguments, we have beliefs, standards, ideals, ideologies. And we argue with them and won't budge. We're arguing something related to the writing of a sci-fi series spanning a few decades, not really the biggest deal on the planet. And what we think works, and what doesn't. Based on how we perceive it, potentially when and how we experienced it, external factors coming into play to push one perception over another, etc. If we can't even convert each other on something as simple as this, writing tangents worth of paragraphs in depth explaining specific scenarios and why or why they wouldn't work based on specific writing prompts or dialogue choices, how do you think a few basic discussions are just gonna swap the Arbiter from pure religious fervor to a state of disbelief?

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An Elite who hinged his life on this religion to the point of thinking he was lesser than nothing for one failure. Wasn't conveyed in game, so with that context, I don't believe he had doubts. 

Nah I'm pretty on the money about it. Several people have tried to beat it into your head that the Arbiter was shown time and time again the chinks in the Covenant religion - you even talked yourself about how the Prophets wanted to execute him in public for doing what he thought was the right thing. But because the game didn't literally beat you over the head with "THE ARBITER IS DOUBTING THE TRUTH OF THE GREAT JOURNEY", you think that it's flawed writing. Maybe you're just being absurdly obtuse about it.

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3 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Uh-huh.

Nah I'm pretty on the money about it. Several people have tried to beat it into your head that the Arbiter was shown time and time again the chinks in the Covenant religion - you even talked yourself about how the Prophets wanted to execute him in public for doing what he thought was the right thing. But because the game didn't literally beat you over the head with "THE ARBITER IS DOUBTING THE TRUTH OF THE GREAT JOURNEY", you think that it's flawed writing. Maybe you're just being absurdly obtuse about it.

Several people have tried and failed.

And no, I talked about how people wanted to publicly execute him for his failure to defend the Halo. That had nothing to do with doing the right thing. He just failed and got shit on for it. Shit like this makes me question if you read things, or understand what people say. Because I never said something like that.

And no, it isn't a matter of the game not beating me over the head, it's a matter of the actual narrative arc not existing as it should. Or, rather, in a way that would convey it without jumping between hardline states of belief to disbelief. Hence my last post to Nokt, where I spoke on that specifically, on how the final few levels with the Arbiter's mainline turn have nothing to them for that. And the only thing before that was a cut off dialogue with the Monitor.

If I truly wasn't being beaten over over the head and whiffed on it, I wouldn't be able to explain every moment in this damn game where shit occurred for this attempted arc. Whether or not I get when it occurred has never been up for debate. The only thing being argued is whether or not that's valid writing or justification for a shift in universe. Because it's obvious I understand where it happened, and don't like it.

It's not being obtuse at all. It's thinking this game could be much better, after having gained an in depth understanding of it and topics related to it.

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The arbiter questions his faith gradually. There's no internal monologue to explicitly state this. I asked several not so versed in the lore people about the story of H4, and they agreed it was more confusing than anything in H2.

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5 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

How do you figure. The Arbiter decides to listen to the heretic who in turn tries to shoot him. I guess what I should say is, in a scenario where we aren’t going by the numbers, accepting things on a whim, that action would almost always result in a quick turn away. Or realistically should. The dude used his own argument to trap and attempt to put a bullet in your head. Why would you listen to his point when he tried to kill you while arguing you were gonna kill yourself, lmao. 

I explained the implication of the gotcha in dialogue before that. Not following. Although, I personally think the full scene is a mess when looked at. Like the Arbiter saying the Prophets betrayed them when he has no fucking idea if they intentionally duped him for malicious reasons or were just as oblivious as he and Tartarus were, but well meaning in their adherence. Since he never actually got their side but makes the judgement anyway. Almost invalidating his own journey to not just believe shit he sees/hears in the same string of words intent on developing it.

And you’re missing my point. And oddly strengthening it. We can string our argument into and hour or two’s formal debate, probably pretty easily. A guaranteed 15 minutes at the least if you’re stringy. Longer than Halo 2’s cutscene runtime in some cases, and much longer than any interaction the Arbiter has with detractors in that runtime in any. So, again, how do you figure he’s gonna come to any conclusion when we’ve still been talking longer, and more in depth, with no real leeway. Even then, as I said, the responses from the Arbiter to them number in the single digits. Let alone the number of interactions. We’re not actually told or shown anything in that time. He just changed. He legitimately goes from thinking of the Chief as a demon and snarking at him with religious fervour, telling him the rings are sacred, ignoring the three others in the room, and not learning anything, remaining steadfast as I’d expect, to suddenly considering zomboi’s words, to allying with said enemies, and denouncing the rings and Prophets, the center of his life, as full on lies. That is the literal line of progression in the end for that arc post Gravemind “revelation”. It could be bullet points in a boardroom. It should be. But it’s the unironic story we have. No depth. No explanation. Nothing to it. No actual arc. You just jump from state to state. No in between. Not a surprise when the game was famously rushed and had a troubled dev cycle.

Because of the cut-scene after killing the heretic the Arbiter walks and talks with 343GS like nothing happened. The fact that heretic attacked the Arbiter doesn't change anything about how the Arbiter feels about 343GS. So his actions/words aren't invalidated by the heretics actions.

I don't see it as a gotcha moment, even if I held the opinion of the Arbiter changing suddenly makes no sense. Betrayal/Lie are pretty synonymous, maybe not a perfect match but its pretty close. There is nothing shocking about the revelation and the Arbiter isn't trying to trap Tartarus. He's trying to tell him to listen.

My point was about how this isn't a real conversation and that even with compiling all of it together the Arbiter still spends more actual time dwelling on the thoughts and actions of whats transpired over the following days/weeks/months. The point was to show that this wasn't a hasty decision, he had time to make a decision. In that time he chooses not to kill Miranda and Johnson, pairing up with them instead to stop Tartarus. In that time he also learns that the demon is nearby and chooses to not engage. He also chooses to join the Elites in the rebellion instead of going back to the Covenant or aiding them in completing the great journey. The Arbiter also remembers the warning of the Gravemind moments before storming the firing room. He doesn't even trust Tartarus with the Icon, the person who has been escorting and aiding him on all of these missions.

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2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

And no, I talked about how people wanted to publicly execute him for his failure to defend the Halo. That had nothing to do with doing the right thing. He just failed and got shit on for it. Shit like this makes me question if you read things, or understand what people say. Because I never said something like that.

lol are you kidding me

The man did what he thought was the correct course of action given what was happening with the Flood, pleads his case to the best of his ability, then gets accused of heresy and sentenced to death in the public eye, and you say that's not relevant to his eventual turn from the Covenant?

No, I think we're getting an idea of what's wrong with YOUR line of thinking.

4 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

And no, it isn't a matter of the game not beating me over the head, it's a matter of the actual narrative arc not existing as it should. Or, rather, in a way that would convey it without jumping between hardline states of belief to disbelief. Hence my last post to Nokt, where I spoke on that specifically, on how the final few levels with the Arbiter's mainline turn have nothing to them for that. And the only thing before that was a cut off dialogue with the Monitor.

Maybe you think the arc isn't there because of shit like what you just said above, which ties in precisely with what I said; because the game didn't give you some reverb-drenched inner monologue of the Arbiter saying "wow man that sucked", you think the narrative doesn't exist, when any idiot could see that stuff like that was part of the transition.

5 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

If I truly wasn't being beaten over over the head and whiffed on it, I wouldn't be able to explain every moment in this damn game where shit occurred for this attempted arc. Whether or not I get when it occurred has never been up for debate. The only thing being argued is whether or not that's valid writing or justification for a shift in universe. Because it's obvious I understand where it happened, and don't like it.

You just whiffed on one of the heaviest examples. A normal human being with normal human thought processes would probably be able to take being accused of being a traitor by the very thing you were trying to protect as a very poignant, relevant moment for a transition.

Speaking of reading between the lines:

UExq6rp.png

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I wonder what ever happened to that JOHN CENA guy who used to spam shock sites on the bnet forums. This is the first time I've felt like a thread has actually needed him.

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Just now, Larry Sizemore said:

I wonder what ever happened to that JOHN CENA guy who used to spam shock sites on the bnet forums. No thread has ever needed him more.

The world is a different place now friend.

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1 minute ago, HeX Reapers said:

what

If every single person on here disagrees with someone, maybe that person is wrong and should admit it. 

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I can buy all the previous stuff like getting death penalty, and having your race being removed from authority playing a part in Arby's defection. My only issue is the gravemind cutscene, which for all practical reasons, should've been the cutscene to have all that culminate. Yet it ends with the arbiter remaining steadfast in his beliefs while also doing graveminds bidding.

He either should've turned in that scene, or another scene should've been added in between gravemind and the Tartarus level.

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1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I will drain the swamp of all the liberal Elites.

Shut up Brute scum.

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5 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Oh good, we're at the part where both sides start twisting words and try to tell the other person what they said and what they actually meant when they said those things. That means things are winding down and this crapdickery will be over soon.

You’re right, Halo 5 is the best arena shooter.  

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2 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Exactly it. No internal monologue to state this. Now, I'm not saying "go heavy-handed" and state EVERYTHING to the audience through dialogue. I'm saying, what we have, and what you speak on is weak writing that boils down to filling in blanks WITHOUT the extra content, like much of the Chief's character Bungie intended him to be. We don't get scenes of just the Arbiter doing things, for example. Maybe slowly, or gradually conveying a sense of change or insecurity through body language, lighting, stance, motive, etc. Nothing in-game alludes to it, because no in-game dialogue. So we're stuck with cutscenes. That show next to nothing, but convey your average redemption arc in bulletpoint form, meaning, your change in say, motive, literally swaps on a dime without actual prompting. There's nothing to it past that barring external media. Halo 2 on its own doesn't hold this arc up well.

I'll specify.

The Arbiter wasn't convinced up until Gravemind, that's where it culminates, we know this. The fourth to last level of the game. And, mind you. His one line to end the encounter with the Gravemind was, I quote:

"Your ignorance already destroyed one of the sacred rings, Demon. It shall not harm another."

So, on that ending, we're given no indication he learns from this encounter. He's as zealous as he was, despite being manhandled by a space zombie, and having encountered multiple Monitors, his newly deceased leader, the Chief, and the Gravemind, he ends on that. Stubborn zealousness. 

He has no lines of dialogue up until Uprising, where he speaks once. On the murder of the Councilors. And his next "major" lines of dialogue, by that, I mean two, comes in the Great Journey, the last level. Both of which pertain to what the hell the Control Room even is, and how he needs to get in. It's here we get one line of dialogue flashbacking to the Gravemind. Referring to the Halo's activation as a key turn, and how it must be stopped. SO. Past the encounter, and multiple levels, we have one line of dialogue where the Arbiter goes from shitting on the Chief in zealous anger, outright not changing, to wanting to stop the Halos and Tartarus. And from there to the level's end, he does an essential 180, forms up with the species who he's been at war with for 30 years, and then formally drops and denounces his religion once he meets Tartarus.

There are literally four lines of dialogue from that Gravemind sequence with the Arbiter, to him denouncing the Halos and the Prophets. And half of those lines had nothing to do with anything pertaining to that religion or his motive. You can't tell me that's actually enough to properly convey religious conversion when you don't focus on the character through any other means. It simply isn't enough. At all.

I'm gonna skip past the first two. For now, assume we don't agree. We just won't. I just wanna focus on this without getting sidelined. 

Now, refer to my post above before you respond. To OG. It lines out the final few levels of Halo 2, and the Arbiter's dialogue. 

On top of that, however. Dwelling on thoughts and actions is a perfect way to convey this shift. One of the best. Better than an internal monologue, it isn't ham-fisted. And it doesn't need to be explained to others. It's a personal journey. NOW, with that said, how do you figure they allowed that to have any time to shine when we don't get time to the Arbiter himself through any means but gameplay where they never convey a sense of emotional strife?  Not once following the Gravemind revelation does he do it. He only once ponders on a flashback speech of the Halo's threat. Not his own personal vendettas and beliefs. Not on swapping sides to those who he'd just spent 30 years killing under the belief they were heretics. Nothing. 

The only thing to make sense is joining the separatists. Because they are his essential "life". His friends, potential family, cohorts, etc. These are his blood brothers by species. That goes without saying.

The rest does not work with the context we have, outright.

I would say it's not relevant in the sense it's never elaborated on, sure. It could've been a good plot point, but it's never brought up again, even in 2's final act.

Now, as I said above, refer to above. Counter that. I don't think you can unironically defend 4 lines of dialogue. You can't even say "but there's more", because the "more" we had, was a conversation with 343GS that resulted in a cut off conversation that spanned three sentences where nothing occurred. Which was obviously hammered in with Gravemind's cutscene.

The narrative doesn't exist. It's bulletpoints.

And no, I wouldn't. We have religions that call people sinners, and effectively threaten them with damnation for doing basic things that are an "affront" to these religions, and a lot of these people believe they're in the wrong by nature and teaching, and don't act out on it, or try to run away. I don't think the Arbiter would feel anything but that creeping sense of useless dread from failing hardcore in his one life goal at the time. In that context.

Appeal to popularity. Fallacy. Not valid or thought-out argumentative properties.

giphy.gif

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Beyond is working on an official broadcast right now so I can't handle the Barbiter talk at the moment. We'll clean this up tonight.

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