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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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25 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Except nobody's saying prioritize the story. At all. I'm saying we can hit the solid medium. Where both story and gameplay run together and work together. Again, just because your standards of prioritizing gameplay over story are a thing doesn't mean having the two co-exist is impossible. You can have your game and story.

Except here's the thing. The Flood didn't get any story presence in terms of what the fuck they were, or why they existed, or what their significance was in terms of beings like the Gravemind. They had no discernible arc in game, and we actually didn't get any history on them until 2010 with Halo Legends, and subsequently, the Forerunner trilogy of novels. And the Forerunners had nothing actually explained about them until 2011, nearly five years after the main trilogy of games, alongside the Flood. We actually didn't even know if they were ancient humans OR fucking aliens until those books came out because we actually had nothing on them bar names and some circumstances on external media irrelevant to the story. How can we say a story is about something we don't even understand? How can the primary antagonist be something we don't get? The story didn't focus on them. Nor was it about them inherently. At all. It was literally about this alien empire and this false war. The Forerunners and Flood played a smaller tertiary role at best. 

However, you'd be wrong on the basis of thinking you can't have a resolution for a false, in-universe plot thread. There's a literal Disney trope about it. Liar revealed tropes. Trilogy ending implies wrapping up your loose ends, on that. It doesn't matter if it's fake in-universe. You explain that and conclude it for the real-world audience. That's how storytelling works. Although, I find it funny that the beings behind the entire war in the first place, essentially building up this lie that resulted in 30 years of bloodshed took up too much screentime. When they were the literal links to why anything happened against humanity by the Covenant's hand. I don't think you understand the actual process of writing, or what is good or bad, by that comment. Which is fine, I just find it weird it's said with such confidence.

But, yeah, Halo's story's a pretty big dumpster fire, at least with most of the games. Poor motivations, poor character development, poor character consistency. It DOES reek of a studio with no real consistent plan over their trilogy, like Star Wars' recent films. Which, as we know, was the case. Given they didn't even plan for Halo 2, and originally didn't plan for 3, and then wanted to make a Halo 4, but didn't. Not counting the massive studio shifts from 2001 to 2007. It really isn't good. I wish it was better. But I'm about two decades too late, lol.

 

You keep talking about these things not wrapping themselves up as if CE, H2, or H3 were all supposed to be the "final" game. They were clearly designed to have a story that flowed over multiple installments, so your bickering over the story never truly finishing doesn't make any sense. More importantly, however, you are showing yourself to be completely at odds with the idea that the story of Halo, at its core, is about Master Chief - not the Covenant, or the Flood, or the Forerunners, or the UNSC. These are all story elements that revolve around what happens to the Chief. You can be mad that the nerdy world-building odds and ends didn't weave themselves into the tidy conclusions you wanted, but you're the only one around here who is finding it hard to get invested into the original trilogy, maybe that makes you the one with odd perspective on what truly matters in a story. It certainly wouldn't be the first time you've been alone in an opinion.

It does...not...matter that the Great Journey didn't get a big wrap up, because the entire point of it was that the Covenant inadvertently released the Flood. It doesn't matter that the Flood's origins aren't explicitly stated in the third game, they are a literal zombie trope and the emphasis is on what you see - they're an all-consuming evil force, are you some kind of weird alien android that needs to be told that that's a bad thing? You're looking at the Halo story through some kind of insipid "dungeon master-esque" autistic fantasy lens. If Halo's story is too surface-level for you, then that's fine, but that doesn't make it trash.

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2 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

And again I ask, why does anybody CARE about the storytelling quality in video games? What are you here for? Did you pay $60 for a game that you experience in first person, or a cutscene simulator that lets you use the joystick and press X every so often?

Have you played Spec Ops: The Line?

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14 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Have you played Spec Ops: The Line?

No, is that the game that a few people around here wanted future Halo campaigns to start mimicking?

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Except nobody's saying prioritize the story. At all. I'm saying we can hit the solid medium. Where both story and gameplay run together and work together. Again, just because your standards of prioritizing gameplay over story are a thing doesn't mean having the two co-exist is impossible. You can have your game and story.

Nobody? I see at least one in person in here bitching non-stop about how she can't accept two near-perfect games because some dumbass sci-fi story details weren't fleshed out adequately enough for her.

Gameplay takes priority. Story connects the battlefields and provides some flavor dialogue for the die-hards. That's it. End of story.

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17 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

You keep talking about these things not wrapping themselves up as if CE, H2, or H3 were all supposed to be the "final" game. They were clearly designed to have a story that flowed over multiple installments, so your bickering over the story never truly finishing doesn't make any sense. More importantly, however, you are showing yourself to be completely at odds with the idea that the story of Halo, at its core, is about Master Chief - not the Covenant, or the Flood, or the Forerunners, or the UNSC. These are all story elements that revolve around what happens to the Chief. You can be mad that the nerdy world-building odds and ends didn't weave themselves into the tidy conclusions you wanted, but you're the only one around here who is finding it hard to get invested into the original trilogy, maybe that makes you the one with odd perspective on what truly matters in a story. It certainly wouldn't be the first time you've been alone in an opinion.

It does...not...matter that the Great Journey didn't get a big wrap up, because the entire point of it was that the Covenant inadvertently released the Flood. It doesn't matter that the Flood's origins aren't explicitly stated in the third game, they are a literal zombie trope and the emphasis is on what you see - they're an all-consuming evil force, are you some kind of weird alien android that needs to be told that that's a bad thing? You're looking at the Halo story through some kind of insipid "dungeon master-esque" autistic fantasy lens. If Halo's story is too surface-level for you, then that's fine, but that doesn't make it trash.

Except they weren't clearly designed to flow over. We can see this with stuff like character consistency from CE to Halo 3. In CE, Chief essentially Doomguy emotes with a grenade to indicate a plan in an oddly expressive fashion. Then we get nothing like this interaction physically in the rest of the trilogy. Because it's out of place with the "character" in heavy airquotes that they tried to convey in later installments. Or stuff like the Forerunners' actual role, which took half a decade to write out concisely following the trilogy, and was mostly left up to the user's interpretation DURING the trilogy, based on certain lines of dialogue from Guilty Spark, referring to you as someone else, and terminals. Stuff that changed, sometimes years after the game's launch as development went on and things were altered or refined. Because they didn't have a full on plan. 

What about the fucking Gravemind. In Halo 2, he has to speak to you physically, dragging you into the depths of the Halo ring to talk with you, and never speaks outside of it. In Halo 3, he telepathically communicates with you across the fucking galaxy. Over and over. And even has a faux Cortana vision that is used to mess with you. How does this indicate a plan and not a damning plot hole stemming from funky-ass, off the cuff ideas when it invalidates and fucks up the idea of him even hauling you down to him in the first place, when telepathy would be an easier solution, and one he could use to actually further his plans without revealing himself, and potentially jeopardizing his plans. One could argue it's to even introduce the third faction, but that's hilariously contrived, way too heavy handed, and also amounts to nothing when the Gravemind never has an arc to even warrant focusing on him as a physical being, but that's besides the point.

Hell, the Arbiter was literally a spitball in a boardroom one day. Spoken of in director's commentaries about this "what if there was a guy that was punished for your success". It's almost all unplanned when you analyze it. And again, given interviews which speak to the idea of messy development, only shows how inconsistent development on Halo as a whole was. This is the same fucking studio that made Reach. The game. And openly said in their commentaries that it fit in with the lore like "pieces of a puzzle", when we know for a fact it doesn't fit with established lore, and Bungie essentially made shit up for a campaign. That should've been the kicker game to make people realize they're kings at making shit up. Fucking Destiny should be a prime example of that, lmao.

However, no, I was never at odds with Chief being the core of Halo. I was obviously only arguing who the antagonist was for the relevant titles. However, on THAT, I don't give a shit if I'm 1 of 1,000,000 dissatisfied with Halo's story. Popularity means nothing to me if something is complete ass, regardless. And it's a fallacy to argue with, lol. I'm only saying, the Covenant are obviously the main antagonists of CE-3. On top of that, it isn't a matter of being told the Flood is bad that I have a problem with. My only comment to that is them not being primary antagonists of the trilogy. They're probably the most long-term threat we have, but they're not focused on, and their actual leader has no development, or arc. When antagonism in terms of a literary hierarchy isn't defined by power, alone. 

And it does matter that the Great Journey gets a wrap up. It's literally the reason CE-3 happened. Every single character that is involved in this story has been involved as a result of this faux-war over this religion. And in this series, we HAVE the main catalysts behind it as characters. And essentially nothing comes of it, on top of it just not being explained, properly. Of course, my point is just on how narratively, having a conclusion is a given. Not a choice. If you don't have a conclusion to something you set up that is the major conflict of your story, that is a literal problem and hole. AND if you have a conflict, you actually need to explain it, lest your writing be lazy and your antagonists left without a proper motive. This isn't an alien concept, this is literally English 101 with regards to plotting out a story.

Fiiiiiiiiiiiinally. Yes, it does. If something with so many entries is surface level, that is a problem. 7 years for basically nothing. Under the guise of an insane story that touched the heart and souls of millions. My entire PROBLEM is that it's surface level and I wanted more of it to increase its potential quality, lmao. And I'm arguing why it suffers BECAUSE it's surface level, in spite of its praise. People can like it all they want. Doesn't really change its quality. It'd still be bad.

Just now, Larry Sizemore said:

Nobody? I see at least one in person in here bitching non-stop about how she can't accept two near-perfect games because some dumbass sci-fi story details weren't fleshed out adequately enough for her.

Gameplay takes priority. Story connects the battlefields and provides some flavor dialogue for the die-hards. That's it. End of story.

Yes, almost like they favored gameplay over story. Almost as if they didn't balance it properly. And suffered. Almost as if I only argued for balance. Not emphasis on one or the other. It isn't that binary, buddy, keep trying.

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Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

Yes, almost like they favored gameplay over story. Almost as if they didn't balance it properly.

So in other words, they did it right.

Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

And suffered.

Yeah, they shoulda been more like the H2 and H4 campaigns! (both lousy)

Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

Almost as if I only argued for balance. Not emphasis on one or the other. 

They had a perfectly fine balance. Actually I'd say if anything Halo 3 placed too much emphasis on story, constantly reminding you of what the narrative situation was via an abundance of Johnson/Keyes/Lord Hood/Shipmaster soundbites instead of just letting the action unfold.

Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

It isn't that binary, buddy, keep trying.

It really is, Glaceon.

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Just now, Larry Sizemore said:

So in other words, they did it right.

Yeah, they shoulda been more like the H2 and H4 campaigns! (both lousy)

They had a perfectly fine balance. Actually I'd say if anything Halo 3 placed too much emphasis on story, constantly reminding you of what the narrative situation was via an abundance of Johnson/Keyes/Lord Hood/Shipmaster soundbites instead of just letting the action unfold.

It really is, Glaceon.

That's a solid yikes, Mr........ Uh. Sorry. I forgot your name. Who're you again?

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Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

That's a solid yikes, Mr........ Uh. Sorry. I forgot your name. Who're you again?

The guy who got you to admit defeat by saying "yikes".

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3 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

The guy who got you to admit defeat by saying "yikes".

Oof, you wish. I would be glad to admit defeat, but you rarely if ever write anything in depth, let alone shit that makes me reconsider what I think. Or is worthy of a response. It's kinda lazy. Reminds me of shooting things. Auto-pilot. You're essentially auto-piloting responses that don't really have weight to be responded to in any worthwhile fashion.

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6 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Oof, you wish. I would be glad to admit defeat, but you rarely if ever write anything in depth, let alone shit that makes me reconsider what I think. Or is worthy of a response. It's kinda lazy. Reminds me of shooting things. Auto-pilot. You're essentially auto-piloting responses that don't really have weight to be responded to in any worthwhile fashion.

> Keeps responding anyway.

Netflix and Hulu are both less than $10 a month and right up your alley. Just saying. In case you missed it the previous eight times.

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15 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

> Keeps responding anyway.

Netflix and Hulu are both less than $10 a month and right up your alley. Just saying. In case you missed it the previous eight times.

Almost like different comments get different responses or response priority, lol. Again, not binary. But ultimately, who cares. You're not listening. Or acknowledging. You're just ignoring my point.

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I'll be honest, the flood is cooler without an exact origin. They're a deep space assimilative organism. I greatly dislike the fact that the flood was "invented." I prefer the horrors of unknown space over "hey so um our kid got bitchy so we made this genocidal tree rot creature and stuck in a ship to be found at a later date lol"

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Gosh 343 are such ass at advertising shit. We have summit streaming reach and it doesn’t look good, nor does anyone know what this flight is. Gosh why couldn’t they of just called it a beta? No company has ever called a demo or beta a “flight” 

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7 minutes ago, HeX Reapers said:

I wish I could absorb your guys' writing stamina for the sake of my own education. Such a waste.

58g4ku7x5juy.gif

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10 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yes, hence me bringing up the context that makes this indoctrination ten times more serious than things we generally go with. Again, being based around a false, multi-decade war. We currently have nothing like that in our world, and people can have insane trouble breaking out of it. I don't think the Arbiter would differ, at all. It's unbelievable. It's along the lines of Chief just believing and going along with what Guilty Spark told him in CE. With minimal evidence. Given, again, people are at this point in 2 just saying "it's a lie/mistake", and the repercussion of going with them is literally saying all the shit you went through was effectively pointless.

By the logic that we have nothing to compare it to in our world would make this a standstill argument because you can't argue my logic with we don't have anything to compare this to, then say what he would do instead. Ignorance is bliss and people will continue to believe what they want to believe, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to follow that. I don't understand why its so hard to see that someone would lose their faith, especially with the events that the Arbiter has seen.

You may as well have Jesus Christ and the devil telling the Arbiter that God isn't real because that is basically who is telling him. These aren't just random people, its a sacred icon, the only thing left thats "sentient" from the forerunner era. Then you have the Gravemind who is trying to absorb everything into a single entity and the Chief who he has been at odds with since the beginning. 

10 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

However, at this point, the Arbiter has no reason to believe his race would go extinct, being annihilated by the Halos, because he has nothing to go off of bar words. Hell, why does he have a reason to care at this point in the story? He never interacts with anybody close to him, and really only works to further his own objective of dying. Not saying he doesn't care about his species, I just don't believe he'd care about anything, given he's wearing a noose perpetually, essentially. As emphasized with his first talk with Rtas'. Why give a fuck if you're going to die and be "left behind" anyway.

No his race is going to go extinct because the Covenant are going to annihilate them. He is shown this as the Elites are attacked on site by the Covenant. He actually interacts with a couple Elites on several occasions in Halo 2, he obviously made connections while he was Supreme Commander. He distances himself when he becomes the Arbiter, but later backtracks as you him talking with other members.

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3 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

No, is that the game that a few people around here wanted future Halo campaigns to start mimicking?

No. I made a post saying I'd like to play a gritty and realistic side-game set in the Halo world that had a similar vibe to SOTL. No-one else stated anything about it.

The game's story is fantastic and it feels like the gameplay came secondary to it. The gameplay is like discount Gears of War but the story was so strong that I found myself wanting to keep going just to finish it. The theming, voice acting and character arcs are all fantastic and I don't regret it for a moment. I would actually say the same about Portal. I don't like Puzzle games and I didn't actually enjoy the gameplay that much at all, but the world building and story was so mysterious and inviting that I just wanted to keep playing to see where it went. The story carried me through.

Same as INSIDE. Story can carry a game if it's good enough.

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8 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Wait a minute, who's fish lady?

Forgot her name, the wife of the Didact that made chief invincible to the composer. 

edit: Librarian 

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7 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Have you played Spec Ops: The Line?

Absolutely shit gameplay, over rated story. The WP Scene is massively overrated, that shit wasn't my choice at all, you had to burn them to progress the game lmao.

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6 minutes ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

Absolutely shit gameplay, over rated story. The WP Scene is massively overrated, that shit wasn't my choice at all, you had to burn them to progress the game lmao.

SOMA? The Last of Us?

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1 hour ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

You're a fucking idiot if you don't use a controller playing Reach on PC.

Did the new patch do anything for mouse aiming? 

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Halo's story is for dweebs. Just read a real sci-fi book instead.

1 hour ago, Basu said:

Did the new patch do anything for mouse aiming? 

I only played a single game of Hardcore with a mouse. I played the entirety of this flight with a controller, but I've played other shooters with a mouse. Snapping to targets seems possible now, but tracking during fights is still awful, and I'm going to attribute that to the terrible player movement. Even MLG movement couldn't help it.

I was having plenty of dropped shots as well which didn't help in any matter.

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2 hours ago, Sitri said:

Halo's story is for dweebs. Just read a real sci-fi book instead.

I only played a single game of Hardcore with a mouse. I played the entirety of this flight with a controller, but I've played other shooters with a mouse. Snapping to targets seems possible now, but tracking during fights is still awful, and I'm going to attribute that to the terrible player movement. Even MLG movement couldn't help it.

I was having plenty of dropped shots as well which didn't help in any matter.

Yeah I just tried it. There's still so much input lag that using a mouse is out of the question. Let's hope they at least fixed the crashes every other game.

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