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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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"I KNOW the game needs them but, I-I just keep DYING to them! What am I doing wrong!? You know what? No. It's not me, it's the GAME! Yes! I've done it! I've big-brained 10+ years of competitive Halo! How could anyone have not seen this sooner! Big rocket go bang-bang me go WTF that not my BR how I supposed to fight that what the frick!? Unfair game dumb stupid should be BR yes BR only skill to the max mmm yes :^)"

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7 hours ago, Nokt said:

You should hang out on r/atheism more often then. People who have been indoctrinated into cults/religions breaking out at all stages of their life. I know first hand of an acquaintance who left his lifelong religion merely because they asked him what he though about homosexuality.  

If nothing else the Sangheili value each other. He wouldn't watch his race go extinct merely because "its all hes known". The signposts are there for the Arbiter to leave the covenant and believe that the Great Journey has been a lie this whole time, whether you find them worthy I guess is up to you.

Yes, hence me bringing up the context that makes this indoctrination ten times more serious than things we generally go with. Again, being based around a false, multi-decade war. We currently have nothing like that in our world, and people can have insane trouble breaking out of it. I don't think the Arbiter would differ, at all. It's unbelievable. It's along the lines of Chief just believing and going along with what Guilty Spark told him in CE. With minimal evidence. Given, again, people are at this point in 2 just saying "it's a lie/mistake", and the repercussion of going with them is literally saying all the shit you went through was effectively pointless.

However, at this point, the Arbiter has no reason to believe his race would go extinct, being annihilated by the Halos, because he has nothing to go off of bar words. Hell, why does he have a reason to care at this point in the story? He never interacts with anybody close to him, and really only works to further his own objective of dying. Not saying he doesn't care about his species, I just don't believe he'd care about anything, given he's wearing a noose perpetually, essentially. As emphasized with his first talk with Rtas'. Why give a fuck if you're going to die and be "left behind" anyway.

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9 hours ago, Basu said:

Speaking of 180° character arcs, look at at this old-ass post I stumbled upon recently:

 

Definition of living long enough to go from the hero to the villain 

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10 hours ago, Basu said:

Speaking of 180° character arcs, look at at this old-ass post I stumbled upon recently:

 

Lol, as funny as that is there's nothing wrong with changing your beliefs over time. I don't agree with a lot of the stuff I said not 3 years ago. 

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18 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Lol, as funny as that is there's nothing wrong with changing your beliefs over time. I don't agree with a lot of the stuff I said not 3 years ago. 

Yeah same I'm not judging. I'm sure if someone dug up posts of mine from three years ago I would cringe HARD. Just thought it fit with Shekkles post and the subject of discussion.

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Video games will continue to struggle as a story telling medium as they improve. For example Halo isn't really that bad, especially for an FPS, but holy shit its bad if you step outside of gaming for a second. Its not all bad though as a whole games and storytelling have been getting more cohesive and intelligent as time goes on. Eventually it'll be comparable to other forms of entertainment more regularly. Until then if you actually care I suggest reading the books to go along with your games assuming they exist because if you look too closely there are holes everywhere without them

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4 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

Video games will continue to struggle as a story telling medium as they improve. For example Halo isn't really that bad, especially for an FPS, but holy shit its bad if you step outside of gaming for a second. Its not all bad though as a whole games and storytelling have been getting more cohesive and intelligent as time goes on. Eventually it'll be comparable to other forms of entertainment more regularly. Until then if you actually care I suggest reading the books to go along with your games assuming they exist because if you look too closely there are holes everywhere without them

Part of the problem is that gameplay and the story usually feel somewhat separate. Like you're playing the game and technically progressing, but then the storytelling aspect is only really progressed through cutscenes, quick time events, and exposition dumps. Movies and television don't have this particular problem, as everything you're seeing and hearing, from start to finish, is the story. It's been getting better through the years, but I don't think video games will ever really be comparable to movies, books, and television in terms of actual storytelling. 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Lol, as funny as that is there's nothing wrong with changing your beliefs over time. I don't agree with a lot of the stuff I said not 3 years ago. 

I came to Beyond as a sprint apologist in like 2014 and got red pilled pretty hard.

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And again I ask, why does anybody CARE about the storytelling quality in video games? What are you here for? Did you pay $60 for a game that you experience in first person, or a cutscene simulator that lets you use the joystick and press X every so often?

Narrative is a vehicle to get you from one battle to the next. That's it. In Halo 1 campaign I forget that there even is a narrative half the time. In Keyes I'm too busy going ham with the shotgun and grenades and plowing through firefight hordes of flood and elites. Until FloodKeyes himself comes on the intercom, two-thirds of the way through the mission, with his I've-fallen-and-I-can't-get-up scream and Cortana says something for the first time in forever, I forget that I even have a story-related goal. I'm just causing destruction on an alien ship and looking for my next victims. THAT's immersion, not some sprintyboi QTE bullshit where the only actual combat is you plopping your ass down with a DMR or carbine and picking people off from range while your friendly AI can't shut the fuck up about Cortana, the Chief, the Guardians, the Didact, the Arbiter, Lasky, or their home planet for more than 3 seconds at a time.

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Story in video games is a lot like netcode or the map design. Unless it's actually bad you don't notice it. CE's story isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it keeps things moving and doesn't detract from the gameplay and world exploring. Yes if you analyze it there are plot holes, weak character development, unclear motives etc. but it doesn't get in the way of enjoying the game.

The H4 story made people yell "WHAT THE FUCK?"  at their TVs when fish lady appeared out of nowhere or when Cortana turned herself into a physical entity and knocked him over and held him down so the player can mash a few buttons to QTE execute him. That is a bad story and ruins the .. wait for it... immersion.

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15 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

And again I ask, why does anybody CARE about the storytelling quality in video games? What are you here for? Did you pay $60 for a game that you experience in first person, or a cutscene simulator that lets you use the joystick and press X every so often?

Hey, I enjoyed the Telltale games.  

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17 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

And again I ask, why does anybody CARE about the storytelling quality in video games? What are you here for? Did you pay $60 for a game that you experience in first person, or a cutscene simulator that lets you use the joystick and press X every so often?

Narrative is a vehicle to get you from one battle to the next. That's it. In Halo 1 campaign I forget that there even is a narrative half the time. In Keyes I'm too busy going ham with the shotgun and grenades and plowing through firefight hordes of flood and elites. Until FloodKeyes himself comes on the intercom, two-thirds of the way through the mission, with his I've-fallen-and-I-can't-get-up scream and Cortana says something for the first time in forever, I forget that I even have a story-related goal. I'm just causing destruction on an alien ship and looking for my next victims. THAT's immersion, not some sprintyboi QTE bullshit where the only actual combat is you plopping your ass down with a DMR or carbine and picking people off from range while your friendly AI can't shut the fuck up about Cortana, the Chief, the Guardians, the Didact, the Arbiter, Lasky, or their home planet for more than 3 seconds at a time.

You can have fun just shooting shit and being entertained by that alone. I actually want some reason to be doing it in a self-proclaimed campaign setting. I go there for that label. Story, campaign, etc. I don't go there for shit writing, and I won't just ignore it because immersive boombooms.

9 minutes ago, Basu said:

Story in video games is a lot like netcode or the map design. Unless it's actually bad you don't notice it. CE's story isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it keeps things moving and doesn't detract from the gameplay and world exploring. Yes if you analyze it there are plot holes, weak character development, unclear motives etc. but it doesn't get in the way of enjoying the game.

Disagree. As per above. I go into a story for that. I pay attention to that and gameplay. If one is sucking ass it's gonna halt my enjoyment because of the expectation of something PAST shooting something. If it were MP, I'd agree. Because your only goal IS that. To shoot stuff and do some objective, or w/e. It's the opposite in a series marketing itself on story.

 

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So the running criticism of the original trilogy's story is that it didn't spend time making more deep/complicated than a simple religious fervor the motivations of the ...secondary antagonist force.

Where's the problem

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1 minute ago, Cursed Lemon said:

So the running criticism of the original trilogy's story is that it didn't spend time making more deep/complicated than a simple religious fervor the motivations of the ...secondary antagonist force.

Where's the problem

Primary. Problem being they don't develop their antagonists, or drop potential ways to, as we saw with Truth in 2 to 3 for example. Their story suffers. Hard. Big problem.

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3 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Primary. Problem being they don't develop their antagonists, or drop potential ways to, as we saw with Truth in 2 to 3 for example. Their story suffers. Hard. Big problem.

Non-existent problem. Go read a book or watch some neon robots show on Netflix. They'll have everything you're looking for.

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5 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Primary.

Maybe...just maybe...the Great Journey wasn't the main plot point of the trilogy.

Gasp.

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35 minutes ago, Basu said:

Story in video games is a lot like netcode or the map design. Unless it's actually bad you don't notice it. CE's story isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it keeps things moving and doesn't detract from the gameplay and world exploring. Yes if you analyze it there are plot holes, weak character development, unclear motives etc. but it doesn't get in the way of enjoying the game.

The H4 story made people yell "WHAT THE FUCK?"  at their TVs when fish lady appeared out of nowhere or when Cortana turned herself into a physical entity and knocked him over and held him down so the player can mash a few buttons to QTE execute him. That is a bad story and ruins the .. wait for it... immersion.

Wait a minute, who's fish lady?

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2 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Non-existent problem. Go read a book or watch some neon robots show on Netflix. They'll have everything you're looking for.

Or. Again. Make a good story in a marketed story game. You can have gameplay AND a story being told. That's the greatness of the medium. The fact you don't need to sit around and have a story rolled out to you like a movie. You take part in it. Don't get me wrong, I love some movies, but I won't settle for less with games just because your expectations are non-existent, or focused elsewhere.

2 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Maybe...just maybe...the Great Journey wasn't the main plot point of the trilogy.

Gasp.

It doesn't need to be. Even if it was secondary, tertiary, etc, it's a conflict in the series. Or, rather, is the start of one. The reason behind one. A large one. I'd rather they take the time and mental energy to explain why the fuck I'm even here than do nothing and just have me fill in blanks, because people couldn't or didn't want to write a cohesive narrative.

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1 minute ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It doesn't need to be. Even if it was secondary, tertiary, etc, it's a conflict in the series. Or, rather, is the start of one. The reason behind one. A large one. I'd rather they take the time and mental energy to explain why the fuck I'm even here than do nothing and just have me fill in blanks, because people couldn't or didn't want to write a cohesive narrative.

You do realize that the point of some stories is that you don't know exactly what's going on at first, right?

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Just now, Cursed Lemon said:

You do realize that the point of some stories is that you don't know exactly what's going on at first, right?

That'd be okay, IF they ever explained it. But they don't. At all. Which has been the root of my problem here. We only got that explanation in October of 2007. A month after Halo 3 came out, and it didn't even matter at that point. And wasn't in the actual games being consumed en masse. That's not okay.

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10 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Or. Again. Make a good story in a marketed story game. You can have gameplay AND a story being told. That's the greatness of the medium. The fact you don't need to sit around and have a story rolled out to you like a movie. You take part in it. Don't get me wrong, I love some movies, but I won't settle for less with games just because your expectations are non-existent, or focused elsewhere.

It's a game, not a movie. Prioritizing story in a video game runs counter to its function as a game. When the narrative just ties the different combat/exploration scenarios together and gives you some cute flavor text/dialogue, everything's fine. When everything else - game design especially - is sacrificed to create the best possible cinematic story that checks all your film critic boxes, everything is not fine.

This is the equivalent of walking into a burger joint and ordering a pizza, and then refusing to go to the pizza place right down the street even after being informed that pizza is not on the menu, because you want your pizza here. Pure silliness.

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1 minute ago, TheIcePrincess said:

That'd be okay, IF they ever explained it. But they don't. At all. Which has been the root of my problem here. We only got that explanation in October of 2007. A month after Halo 3 came out, and it didn't even matter at that point. And wasn't in the actual games being consumed en masse. That's not okay.

The Great Journey was there to explain why the Covenant were involved in a story about the Forerunners, the Flood, and the Halo rings.

It didn't need a resolution, hell it couldn't HAVE a resolution because it was fake. Yes, that means the Prophets took up too much screen time, no one said the story was perfect, but you referred to it as a "dumpster fire" which is fucking r*tarded.

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Dude, I'm having so much fun wiping out an entire galaxy's worth of ghosts, choppers, banshees, and wraiths on this forerunner sand dune world! Wait a minute though, do I have a reason to be here? Did they ever tell us what the deal was with the great journey? Why was Arbiter so quick to turn on his overlords? Who was phone? This sucks, I thought I was paying $60 for a Hollywood movie with joysticks, not an actual game! Bungie screwed me!

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4 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

It's a game, not a movie. Prioritizing story in a video game runs counter to its function as a game. When the narrative just ties the different combat/exploration scenarios together and gives you some cute flavor text/dialogue, everything's fine. When everything else - game design especially - is sacrificed to create the best possible cinematic story that checks all your film critic boxes, everything is not fine.

This is the equivalent of walking into a burger joint and ordering a pizza, and then refusing to go to the pizza place right down the street even after being informed that pizza is not on the menu, because you want your pizza here. Pure silliness.

Except nobody's saying prioritize the story. At all. I'm saying we can hit the solid medium. Where both story and gameplay run together and work together. Again, just because your standards of prioritizing gameplay over story are a thing doesn't mean having the two co-exist is impossible. You can have your game and story.

3 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

The Great Journey was there to explain why the Covenant were involved in a story about the Forerunners, the Flood, and the Halo rings.

It didn't need a resolution, hell it couldn't HAVE a resolution because it was fake. Yes, that means the Prophets took up too much screen time, no one said the story was perfect, but you referred to it as a "dumpster fire" which is fucking r*tarded.

Except here's the thing. The Flood didn't get any story presence in terms of what the fuck they were, or why they existed, or what their significance was in terms of beings like the Gravemind. They had no discernible arc in game, and we actually didn't get any history on them until 2010 with Halo Legends, and subsequently, the Forerunner trilogy of novels. And the Forerunners had nothing actually explained about them until 2011, nearly five years after the main trilogy of games, alongside the Flood. We actually didn't even know if they were ancient humans OR fucking aliens until those books came out because we actually had nothing on them bar names and some circumstances on external media irrelevant to the story. How can we say a story is about something we don't even understand? How can the primary antagonist be something we don't get? The story didn't focus on them. Nor was it about them inherently. At all. It was literally about this alien empire and this false war. The Forerunners and Flood played a smaller tertiary role at best. 

However, you'd be wrong on the basis of thinking you can't have a resolution for a false, in-universe plot thread. There's a literal Disney trope about it. Liar revealed tropes. Trilogy ending implies wrapping up your loose ends, on that. It doesn't matter if it's fake in-universe. You explain that and conclude it for the real-world audience. That's how storytelling works. Although, I find it funny that the beings behind the entire war in the first place, essentially building up this lie that resulted in 30 years of bloodshed took up too much screentime. When they were the literal links to why anything happened against humanity by the Covenant's hand. I don't think you understand the actual process of writing, or what is good or bad, by that comment. Which is fine, I just find it weird it's said with such confidence.

But, yeah, Halo's story's a pretty big dumpster fire, at least with most of the games. Poor motivations, poor character development, poor character consistency. It DOES reek of a studio with no real consistent plan over their trilogy, like Star Wars' recent films. Which, as we know, was the case. Given they didn't even plan for Halo 2, and originally didn't plan for 3, and then wanted to make a Halo 4, but didn't. Not counting the massive studio shifts from 2001 to 2007. It really isn't good. I wish it was better. But I'm about two decades too late, lol.

 

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