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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

From what I remember the only reason the players go to the ark was because Cortana said there was a way to stop the flood on it. Otherwise they were content to stay on Earth and fend off the rest of the flood from high charity.

The Halos were on standby and Halo 2 began the plot point of going to the Ark to deactivate/stop the activation of the rings on standby from yanking the Index early.

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30 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

The Halos were on standby and Halo 2 began the plot point of going to the Ark to deactivate/stop the activation of the rings on standby from yanking the Index early.

Right but the separatists were going to do all that. The humans - and the player by extension- only went because Cortana said there was a way to stop the flood.

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17 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

They literally mention the Human-Covenant war's 30 year span in the manual of the game. You would buy the game and have this information on one of the front pages. There's a fuckton of implications with that that they don't bother speaking on. If it WAS just the novels, I could maybe understand completely nullifying this, but they make a point to heavily reference novel events, and events we hadn't even actually seen in depth yet (Including the START of the war), but not explain why any of it went down. Of course all this is, is a "want". I WANT this story to be more concise and explained. Likewise, you don't need to have an infodump in the opening level. As I said, it'd be lazier, or rather, lacking in creativity, but have a text-scroll pre-game. ODST did it, and it was fine, and would "adequately" fill people in on previous events or what's happening, now.

I didn't just focus on screen time for the antagonist, either. I spoke more so on how the plots are driven by the Covenant over anything. Yeah, the Flood becomes an issue with long-term potential repercussion. But they become an issue BECAUSE of the Covenant. You arrive at Halo in desperation because of the Covenant, you find a way to stop the Flood because of the Covenant, you try and stop the rings from activating because of the Covenant, you become wary allies WITH the Flood because of the Covenant, hell, you becomes wary allies with the Covenant because of the Covenant, lmao. For the game's context, it all boils back down to them. I still don't think a "larger threat" makes the Flood for example, the primary antagonist. They have worse repercussions for us, but you would still wanna destroy or stop the Halo in CE, regardless of the Flood threat, you'd still wanna stop the ring's activation in Halo 2, you'd still wanna get to the Ark and control it, or destroy it in Halo 3. All of this would be done regardless of the Flood. The Flood is just a tension-raiser at this point. Tertiary. A threat, but ironically enough not "the" threat. Mostly because of weird handling.

Its a basic alien invasion trope. Motivations aren't always known or known from the start. Thats all this is. You can call it lazy or lacking in creativity, but it happens frequent enough to be considered a trope. The closest relative I can think would be Mass Effect and you don't understand the reapers motivations until ME3. Some could argue that it probably wouldn't have been better to know the reason for the Reapers attack.

Within the context of CE there is no reason to want to destroy Halo. Even outside the context of CE much of the series is spent studying forerunner artifacts. There would be no reason to seek to destroy it up until you learn its intended use. Joining the Elites is not becoming allies with the Covenant, the elites break off and rebel against the Covenant. Which is orchestrated by the Gravemind. I guess you could say Tartarus started it, but the gravemind was the one who changed the Arbiter's mind. I'll admit it flip flops between the trilogy on who is the main antagonist, but if I had to pick one over the other I'd still say the gravemind/flood

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7 hours ago, Nokt said:

Its a basic alien invasion trope. Motivations aren't always known or known from the start. Thats all this is. You can call it lazy or lacking in creativity, but it happens frequent enough to be considered a trope. The closest relative I can think would be Mass Effect and you don't understand the reapers motivations until ME3. Some could argue that it probably wouldn't have been better to know the reason for the Reapers attack.

Within the context of CE there is no reason to want to destroy Halo. Even outside the context of CE much of the series is spent studying forerunner artifacts. There would be no reason to seek to destroy it up until you learn its intended use. Joining the Elites is not becoming allies with the Covenant, the elites break off and rebel against the Covenant. Which is orchestrated by the Gravemind. I guess you could say Tartarus started it, but the gravemind was the one who changed the Arbiter's mind. I'll admit it flip flops between the trilogy on who is the main antagonist, but if I had to pick one over the other I'd still say the gravemind/flood

Yes, that's exactly it. It's a trope. Tropes when used in their barebones state is (arguably) just poor-ass writing. The entirety of CE is essentially a trope in and of itself, but that's its own thing. And I wouldn't consider it a good reason to be lacking basic storytelling mechanisms. Like motives. Just because it's a thing doesn't validate it.

Within the context of CE, however, there was literally a reason to want to destroy Halo. A superweapon you don't understand harboring space zombies, under threat of being controlled by the Covenant. Hence why the first conclusion someone came to as things unfolded was "hey, let's blow up our own ship to blow this up". To deny resources/stop the army. I don't get what studying Forerunner artifacts has to do with not seeking to destroy it in desperation either, when it's happened four times in the games. Halo, the Reach artifact, the Ark, and the attempted destruction of the Composer. Three times where we didn't exactly fully learn what we intended to off of it, but just nuked it anyway to deny its acquisition, or further use, or to just kill something, or someone.

And no, the Covenant rebellion/Schism wasn't orchestrated by the Gravemind. It had next to nothing to do with him, but more so the flawed power struggle within the Covenant's highest ranks causing the Elites to become insanely disillusioned, following the favoritism of the Brutes and Truth's own desires for power, and subsequent power moves. Which occurred well before the Arbiter met the Gravemind, he was witness to it. The only thing the Gravemind changed the Arbiter on (somehow), or rather, made him consider more, was what the ring's purpose was, but that didn't have much to do with breaking off from the Covenant as much as the Covenant's own shafting of itself did. Of course, this goes back into "how did he sway the Arbiter on anything when he didn't show him anything". Hell, he even ignored the "oracle's" talk on what the ring was capable of, our plantboi's subsequent poetry of death cycles, and swore the rings were still sacred two seconds later to the Chief. But those are their own problems.

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Yeah arbiter's turn from his religion is real abrupt in halo 2. That always bothered me.  

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1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

Yeah arbiter's turn from his religion is real abrupt in halo 2. That always bothered me.  

Why? He doubted his words at first, but had to seek some truth. And when he asked the oracle(guilty spark) what halo is, he now knew his faith was a lie).

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3 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Why? He doubted his words at first, but had to seek some truth. And when he asked the oracle(guilty spark) what halo is, he now knew his faith was a lie).

I mean, he'd literally reached a point of brainwashing in his life where he came to accept his only purpose following one failure was to die for his religion. He effectively was living to die in a suicide mission and accepted it, and originally didn't think he was even worthy of THAT. You don't just turnaround on that.

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14 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I mean, he'd literally reached a point of brainwashing in his life where he came to accept his only purpose following one failure was to die for his religion. He effectively was living to die in a suicide mission and accepted it, and originally didn't think he was even worthy of THAT. You don't just turnaround on that.

ok Let’s back track. The first mission he does is to kill a heretic and when he questions the man who’s been telling him all the lies he’s spoken of, he shows him the Oracle.

after his betrayal, he meets the grave mind who tells him of his “gods” and what they did.

and when he questioned the oracle himself and heard it, he was convinced.

You DEFINITELY turn around after that! It’s not like he wasn’t feeling doubt through out his mission. 
 

 

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12 minutes ago, Arlong said:

ok Let’s back track. The first mission he does is to kill a heretic and when he questions the man who’s been telling him all the lies he’s spoken of, he shows him the Oracle.

after his betrayal, he meets the grave mind who tells him of his “gods” and what they did.

and when he questioned the oracle himself and heard it, he was convinced.

You DEFINITELY turn around after that! It’s not like he wasn’t feeling doubt through out his mission. 
 

 

Feeling doubt and pulling a total 180 differ. We see this with religious people today who question their faith and sometimes take years to mull over what they believe or disbelieve, with some falling back into it because indoctrination is a mentally damaging tool. If this Arbiter was indoctrinated to the point of seeing himself as the walking dead for the failure of the Halo campaign, I highly doubt a few people telling him his religion's a full on lie would 180 sway him. If anything, it'd make him more likely and prone to wanting to do nothing and die, knowing everything he did and went through was effectively for nothing. Or more prone to just staying on his current path as an act of justification in doing what he does with a sense of purpose. I don't think he would drop it all, however. Very unrealistic, especially from a species defined by old-style honor arrangements.

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After getting betrayed and left for dead (aka not the death he was promised) and being told the truth by a monitor or what he saw as a holy oracle, I could buy a turn on "the great journey" concept. Hell, in halo 3 Truth hints at the elites not being 100% in on the whole sacred ring thing anyway, and the EU supports this to some degree. The problem is, within the context of h2, that the arbiter leaves the gravemind unconvinced, yet carries out his orders anyway. Then in the end he accepts everything pretty much without prior indication. 

What they needed was an extra scene where the arbiter discovers evidence of his own accord and then decides to flip. Having had personal experience with breaking religious brainwashing, I can promise you that this is a far more powerful persuasive tool than having some talking head dictate new beliefs to you.

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9 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yes, that's exactly it. It's a trope. Tropes when used in their barebones state is (arguably) just poor-ass writing. The entirety of CE is essentially a trope in and of itself, but that's its own thing. And I wouldn't consider it a good reason to be lacking basic storytelling mechanisms. Like motives. Just because it's a thing doesn't validate it.

Within the context of CE, however, there was literally a reason to want to destroy Halo. A superweapon you don't understand harboring space zombies, under threat of being controlled by the Covenant. Hence why the first conclusion someone came to as things unfolded was "hey, let's blow up our own ship to blow this up". To deny resources/stop the army. I don't get what studying Forerunner artifacts has to do with not seeking to destroy it in desperation either, when it's happened four times in the games. Halo, the Reach artifact, the Ark, and the attempted destruction of the Composer. Three times where we didn't exactly fully learn what we intended to off of it, but just nuked it anyway to deny its acquisition, or further use, or to just kill something, or someone.

And no, the Covenant rebellion/Schism wasn't orchestrated by the Gravemind. It had next to nothing to do with him, but more so the flawed power struggle within the Covenant's highest ranks causing the Elites to become insanely disillusioned, following the favoritism of the Brutes and Truth's own desires for power, and subsequent power moves. Which occurred well before the Arbiter met the Gravemind, he was witness to it. The only thing the Gravemind changed the Arbiter on (somehow), or rather, made him consider more, was what the ring's purpose was, but that didn't have much to do with breaking off from the Covenant as much as the Covenant's own shafting of itself did. Of course, this goes back into "how did he sway the Arbiter on anything when he didn't show him anything". Hell, he even ignored the "oracle's" talk on what the ring was capable of, our plantboi's subsequent poetry of death cycles, and swore the rings were still sacred two seconds later to the Chief. But those are their own problems.

No, it doesn't mean that at all. Just because a trope becomes something common doesn't mean its poor writing. Tropes become a trope because they are a popular form of writing. Not that all popular things are good, but the argument that it is bad is going against the grain.

There literally is no concern that the Covenant are going to control the ring. Its blown up solely for the flood. Had they not released the flood you would not have found the purpose for the ring until much later. There is no point in talking what ifs though.

Actually they happen at the very same time. Tartarus tells the Arbiter how the Prophets put in plan to kill the Elites and knocks him down a shaft which takes him to the gravemind. Either way you still prove the point, the elites aren't apart of the covenant and you aren't allying yourself with the covenant to fight the covenant because they are no longer apart of said group.

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Okay questioning Halo CEs overarching writing is one thing but the characters in Halo 2 are actually some of the best written I've ever seen in a video game, maybe ever. I give the Halo franchise shit for writing moments all the time but Halo 2s characters, their motivations, and the dialogue and interaction between them is seriously nothing short of perfect. There's nothing wrong with Arbiters conversion, he heard it from the Heretic, then the monitor, then the gravemind, and then chief. 

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48 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Okay questioning Halo CEs overarching writing is one thing but the characters in Halo 2 are actually some of the best written I've ever seen in a video game, maybe ever. I give the Halo franchise shit for writing moments all the time but Halo 2s characters, their motivations, and the dialogue and interaction between them is seriously nothing short of perfect. There's nothing wrong with Arbiters conversion, he heard it from the Heretic, then the monitor, then the gravemind, and then chief. 

Eh chiefs word meant shit since he was the demon. The heretics words also meant nothing. But the gravemind and monitors words meant the most. 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Okay questioning Halo CEs overarching writing is one thing but the characters in Halo 2 are actually some of the best written I've ever seen in a video game, maybe ever. I give the Halo franchise shit for writing moments all the time but Halo 2s characters, their motivations, and the dialogue and interaction between them is seriously nothing short of perfect. There's nothing wrong with Arbiters conversion, he heard it from the Heretic, then the monitor, then the gravemind, and then chief. 

Yeah, except that isn't how conversion works. It isn't just a switch. And we have instances where you can provide empirical evidence for things not even related to religion and people still won't believe it. So why would the Arbiter believe this and drop this on NOTHING but people's words? I don't believe a religious heavy character would just instantly drop it when some opposition came across him. Again, this is a character who's been indoctrinated to believe this, was made to believe his life was meaningless, was tortured publicly for it, accepted his own DEATH at that, and fought an actually useless war in hindsight that served more harm than good, all for a lie. I don't think he'd accept that. And just switch. At all. You're missing an insane chunk of development. Or, conversely, you're completely mis-characterizing someone. The latter of which would not surprise me.

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Just out of curiosity, I blew the dust off my old copy of Halo PC and installed it. It's been a very long time, but I wanted to see what the mouse aiming in that game felt like.

It's not flawless, but it is MUCH better than Reach. This is base Halo PC too, not Custom Edition.

 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, except that isn't how conversion works. It isn't just a switch. And we have instances where you can provide empirical evidence for things not even related to religion and people still won't believe it. So why would the Arbiter believe this and drop this on NOTHING but people's words? I don't believe a religious heavy character would just instantly drop it when some opposition came across him. Again, this is a character who's been indoctrinated to believe this, was made to believe his life was meaningless, was tortured publicly for it, accepted his own DEATH at that, and fought an actually useless war in hindsight that served more harm than good, all for a lie. I don't think he'd accept that. And just switch. At all. You're missing an insane chunk of development. Or, conversely, you're completely mis-characterizing someone. The latter of which would not surprise me.

I mean Tartarus betrays him, tells him that they plan on killing the elites. Then had a conversation with a prophet, an oracle, Chief, and the Gravemind all at once.

Its not like these are random people. The oracle is a religious icon of his own religion telling him they need to fire the ring to contain the flood, not go on the great journey. The heretic put the seed in his mind and as the events play out his religion falls apart is there really any other option? Why would you continue to serve the Covenant when they tried to exterminate you?

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Just now, Nokt said:

I mean Tartarus betrays him, tells him that they plan on killing the elites. Then had a conversation with a prophet, an oracle, Chief, and the Gravemind all at once.

Its not like these are random people. The oracle is a religious icon of his own religion telling him they need to fire the ring to contain the flood, not go on the great journey. The heretic put the seed in his mind and as the events play out his religion falls apart is there really any other option? Why would you continue to serve the Covenant when they tried to exterminate you?

Because it's all you literally know? And you still came to a point where you were basically considering yourself the walking dead because you only served a suicidal role in the Covenant? Again, you don't just shed your beliefs after a lifetime. Think about people who shed Christianity for one reason or another and have vivid nightmares about hell, and whether or not they made the right choice. And these are just people who believe in something. They don't wage war for it. It's just time dedication at this point. Now, take a religious slant, with the context of the war, the punishment for his failures, his humiliation, his torture, his disregard for his own life, etc. And then add that everything he went through and did was for a lie. Literally nothing in context. It seems so much more believable that he'd go with Tartarus in mindset and totally keep going on his suicide mission regardless of its truthfulness, rather than immediately accept the idea he may be wrong given HOW MUCH he has lost to his belief, EVEN IF going on his suicidal mission was reckless. We know this type of rationalization is common, especially with religion. I don't get why this would differ, especially with a much bigger emphasis on what was lost to what was promised.

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Because it's all you literally know? And you still came to a point where you were basically considering yourself the walking dead because you only served a suicidal role in the Covenant? Again, you don't just shed your beliefs after a lifetime. Think about people who shed Christianity for one reason or another and have vivid nightmares about hell, and whether or not they made the right choice. And these are just people who believe in something. They don't wage war for it. It's just time dedication at this point. Now, take a religious slant, with the context of the war, the punishment for his failures, his humiliation, his torture, his disregard for his own life, etc. And then add that everything he went through and did was for a lie. Literally nothing in context. It seems so much more believable that he'd go with Tartarus in mindset and totally keep going on his suicide mission regardless of its truthfulness, rather than immediately accept the idea he may be wrong given HOW MUCH he has lost to his belief, EVEN IF going on his suicidal mission was reckless. We know this type of rationalization is common, especially with religion. I don't get why this would differ, especially with a much bigger emphasis on what was lost to what was promised.

You should hang out on r/atheism more often then. People who have been indoctrinated into cults/religions breaking out at all stages of their life. I know first hand of an acquaintance who left his lifelong religion merely because they asked him what he though about homosexuality.  

If nothing else the Sangheili value each other. He wouldn't watch his race go extinct merely because "its all hes known". The signposts are there for the Arbiter to leave the covenant and believe that the Great Journey has been a lie this whole time, whether you find them worthy I guess is up to you.

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Speaking of 180° character arcs, look at at this old-ass post I stumbled upon recently:

On 10/30/2016 at 1:26 AM, My Namez BEAST said:
On 10/29/2016 at 9:06 PM, Ling Ling said:

Agreed. Invisible OS in CE made the game unplayable. This is also why I'm a big fan of the flagnum. Before, I didn't know if a guy had rockets or not, but now that uncertainty is gone. Oh, and that's also why I'm a big fan of Midship; none of that guessing and predicting power weapon spawns/locations and complex map flow shit, just you and a BR for your Quadshot montage.

First off I don't get how this relates to you liking the flagnum lol. What do power weapons have to do with that? Secondly, are you saying you don't like power weapons or power ups at all? You do understand their necessity in Halo right?

 

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