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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

H4 story was pretty cool though, and it definitely went deeper into how the four runners were about. And if you decided to read the EU it made a lot of sense. Look I get that people shouldn’t need to do that, but in a shooter game with tons of lore, it’s hard to do that to a game who’s story gameplay is about 9h long.  The Didacts unwillingness to forgive humanity,  blaming them for everything, and then chief a hybrid of human and fourrunner gives it to him. But fuck h5 for not expanding on this, and making Cortana the villain who ill add was originally supposed to stay DEAD! 

If you need to read the EU to understand the story than the story is garbage.

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2 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

If you need to read the EU to understand the story than the story is garbage.

You don't. This argument's still (sorry) rubbish.

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Easily worse than 4's story on a base conceptual level. Makes absolutely no sense from the lore perspective of how these things turn out. And feels like such a really dumb stretch from something more grounded in military-esque reality. If we're talking straight UNSC that is. Since obviously the Halos were nuttily sci-fi.

I'd have rather they had a normal, human rift form between the Spartan classes. More so from the IVs to the IIs. Because you essentially live in one man's shadow and you'd never be seen as your own thing. Just a shadow of a legend. Maybe have something akin to Halo 5's concept story of chasing him down but actually have the Spartans question whether or not to even do it midway through. Or why to do it. Why, when someone so pivotal just seemingly drops everything and fucks you over. Given the IVs are much more human it'd be easy to convey a crossed sense of emotion, morality and order-taking skepticism. But not to the point of randomly terrorizing people they protect. A personal vendetta against someone who overshadows you in the way Chief does to EVERYONE in the human universe feels so much more real than something where tons of military-trained supersoldiers just go rogue and entirely against their own population. More so because this occurred from the ODSTs to the IIs, and is a ripe story for retelling in numerous ways. Even the Bionicle series didn't do this idea of a rogue kingdom in any way until an alternate universe set of stories was established AFTER its run ended. Because it was such glorified fanfiction compared to the main line, lol.

I wanted to quote this because it's funny you're the first person outside of me to remember and bring up the fact that the Covenant's actual motive was never explained in the trilogy of games we got despite it being key to why the fuck they're doing what they do. And funny enough, the book to even explain it came out AFTER Halo 3. Absolutely horrible storytelling to forget your antagonist's actual motive, and I will never get over it for something renowned for its story, but you know.

Yeah basically the reason for killing humanity was they knew the responsibility from the four runners was given to humanity, which is why they didn’t want them apart of the covenant and instead decided to destroy them. It’s actually funny when you think about it, let’s say they succeeded in exterminating humanity, and they still find one of the rings. They’d of never been able to activate it. 

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1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

If you need to read the EU to understand the story than the story is garbage.

Dude I literally said it’s hard to fit all of it in, within a FPS game with a max time of 9H or less. Halo isn’t an rpg man with tons of story to be told. The story in h4 was “new” because it brought something to the table that couldn’t be told through out the whole thing. Four runner king who was imprisoned by his wife returns and wishes to destroy humanity. That’s basically h4. If you want to know why you need to watch or read the eu. There’s terminals in the game but that requires reading and god forbid we have that lmao.  Not a lot of FPS have tons of story to be told, because deep down most people couldn’t give a rats ass about it. 

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Understanding halo isn’t easy, understanding the game is. The first three games is stop the flood which is the most dangerous thing that’s ever existed. Heck’s it took 30 days for the flood to capture high charity. 

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Games whose gameplay experiences are dictated by lore (H4 definitely fits this description, as do Reach and H5) are almost always terrible. The gameplay is the cake, the lore is the icing. You want to make a movie, literally go make a movie instead.

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3 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You don't. This argument's still (sorry) rubbish.

Why do you even post here.

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2 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Yeah basically the reason for killing humanity was they knew the responsibility from the four runners was given to humanity, which is why they didn’t want them apart of the covenant and instead decided to destroy them. It’s actually funny when you think about it, let’s say they succeeded in exterminating humanity, and they still find one of the rings. They’d of never been able to activate it. 

Yeah, and it's yet another reason as to why orig trig is half a trashfire there, lol. You'd have never known this had you not read Harvest. And it's pivotal info.

7 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Why do you even post here.

For a good time. Hoping for some good, new arguments or viewpoints.

In other words, I have no fucking idea, anymore, lmao.

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aliens want to go to space heaven and chair guy wants to be god

to do this, aliens must activate thing that kills many other things (not true but is believed to be)

humanity wants to live, so they try and stop aliens

aliens see humanity as a threat to their goal, so they try to wipe them out

It really isn't that hard people. Stop overthinking it.

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23 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

For a good time. Hoping for some good, new arguments or viewpoints.

In other words, I have no fucking idea, anymore, lmao.

Pfft "new" arguments in Halo. That'll be the day.

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8 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Games whose gameplay experiences are dictated by lore (H4 definitely fits this description, as do Reach and H5) are almost always terrible. The gameplay is the cake, the lore is the icing. You want to make a movie, literally go make a movie instead.

Reach gameplay was fun as fuck for a lot of people, idk what you’re on about. 

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9 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Reach gameplay was fun as fuck for a lot of people, idk what you’re on about. 

The people who have fond memories of Reach always talk about wacky custom games, grinding/unlocking new armor for their Spartans and shit like Invasion or Dino Blasters. No one likes core 4v4 Reach especially the non-TU stuff. No one remembers a good map because there was no good map in that game that wasn't a remake. 

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13 minutes ago, Basu said:

The people who have fond memories of Reach always talk about wacky custom games, grinding/unlocking new armor for their Spartans and shit like Invasion or Dino Blasters. No one likes core 4v4 Reach especially the non-TU stuff. No one remembers a good map because there was no good map in that game that wasn't a remake. 

I forgot to add campaign to my sentence. 
and I resent that, countdown was and is an amazing map.

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22 minutes ago, Basu said:

The people who have fond memories of Reach always talk about wacky custom games, grinding/unlocking new armor for their Spartans and shit like Invasion or Dino Blasters. No one likes core 4v4 Reach especially the non-TU stuff. No one remembers a good map because there was no good map in that game that wasn't a remake. 

Gonna go ahead and put heavy emphasis on this.

In CE and H2, I had a lot of fun playing zombies, Tower of Power, infinite stickies, warthog races, hide and seek, crazy shit like Boarding Action sniper CTF, the works. Those things were a lot of fun and they contribute to the magic of that period.

But I put hours...and hours...and hours, and HOURS of my life into grinding basic MLG matches in both games. Nothing was special, nothing was gimmicky. There were no achievements when I was done, I didn't get any cool cosmetics to show for it. All I did was put work into the base game, and most of it was offline. That's how good CE is. H2 was a product of the launch of XBL and the social explosion that came with it, but Christ crackers at least I can aim properly in that game and it still feels decent under my hands today. And hey, at least it had split-screen and LAN functionality.

Need an example not drowning in nostalgia? I play a lot of Apex Legends. I haven't spent a single dime on the game, I don't go for the dailies, I generally don't even play the special modes that much, almost all my skins are boring ones. I play the base game because it's mechanically solid, it's mostly balanced, and it's just a well-functioning FPS game - that's all I've ever wanted in my life.

The Reach base game was garbage. The H4 base game was garbage. The H5 base game was garbage. And it shows because of what you just said - nobody talks about how much fun they have playing the vanilla settings.

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

I forgot to add campaign to my sentence. 
and I resent that, countdown was and is an amazing map.

Even then, the Reach campaign was ass for the most part. Some decent environmental art and vehicle gameplay (we finally got a space battle) but due to bloom and the AAs the game is more of a chore than the fun core gameplay loop that Halo delivered so well in the first three campaigns (aside from the shitty flood levels). I'll never forget how they teased a Scarab fight just to have it destroyed in a cutscene, yay.

It's better than the monstrosities known to man as H4/5's campaigns (H4 has alright narrative if you know the source material but sucks balls gameplay wise) but yeah that's not saying much. Reach's narrative was decent, but then again that already existed in The Fall Of Reach and they couldn't even adapt that right and messed up a lot of shit that had to be retconned later. Bungie really wanted to be done with Halo and it shows.

Countdown is meh, a bad version of construct mostly. It started that unhealthy obsession with narrow corridors, too many routes to get anywhere and littering the map with corners to hide behind (with the only power weapons on map being Sword, Shotgun and Concussion Rifle YAY BUNGIE NICE JOB) that we're still suffering from today.

@Cursed Lemon Nothing to add to your post. It's rare that a game is fun just due to the core mechanics and not because there's a bunch of skinner box progression systems on top trying to glue you to the gamepad. Honestly I can probably count the games that give me that feeling on one hand.

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I had an idea today and I’m curious what people think.

The topic of laser tag came up today, and I was thinking about why I never really enjoyed it that much. I always hated how you could position yourself however you want with no consequence. You could allow yourself to eat shots if you really wanted to be in a particular spot. Getting shot meant nothing other than a brief cooldown. Also, there was no real reason to be anywhere in particular, so the game always felt random and wholly without structure.
 

Then I started thinking, what if when you get shot you had to go back to base to reactivate? That would fix the positioning problem, but would restrict you to symmetrical layouts and create a spawn trapping issue. 
 

So then I thought, what if spawn trapping was the victory condition? What if, after X amount of minutes, you had to have at least one active player beyond a certain point on the field? If at any time past, let’s say 3 minutes, your team has zero players beyond the 35yard line, the round ends. Casual laser tag audiences would probably hate this, but it would bring some order to the gameplay.

THEN I thought, could this be created in H5 forge? Could we create a zone on each team’s half of the map that slowly expands as the round goes on? Each team must keep at least one player out of their zone at all times. It’d be like the current Elimination mode, except you could play it on bigger maps because the gametype demands certain positioning and provides structure to the gameplay. It would also change the hide and seek gameplay you see in Elimination towards trying to sneak a player past enemy lines, and emphasize sweeping your own base before pressing forward and containing the other team. Shit, you could literally call the gametype Containment.

Forgers, is this gametype possible? Everyone, does this sound worthwhile?

Edit: I’m picturing this being played on Breakout maps. Also, due to the positional restrictions put in place, you wouldn’t need the long respawn times of the Elimination mode. It might even work with 5sec respawns.

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^ I'm not sure that would work because the line between legit spawn trapping and that gametype being literally impossible to win would be so razor thin. Spawn trapping itself is a symptom of something being wrong with the balance of the game, either the spawn system itself or the map design. I'm not sure you could make a gametype out of it.

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18 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

^ I'm not sure that would work because the line between legit spawn trapping and that gametype being literally impossible to win would be so razor thin. Spawn trapping itself is a symptom of something being wrong with the balance of the game, either the spawn system itself or the map design. I'm not sure you could make a gametype out of it.

I was thinking about this the other day and I'm not 100% on board. I think it sometimes is a symptom of something being wrong but at the same time I think there is a certain (very high ceiling sometimes) skill involved in both setting up for and predicting spawns. I feel like you have to go case by case and break down why a spawn trap occurs and what sort of options the victim has or had to avoid it to figure out when its a map problem vs someone just being really fucking good/smart. 

For some really high level games like take the rig for example the trap wasn't even a particular area. Teams would just get other teams out of sync spawn wise and just repeatedly flip the map and play with numbers back and forth across it. I'm sure it fucking sucked that it was happening and was hard to break out of but at the same time being that conscious of numbers and where the next spawn is takes a lot of skill on the spot

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8 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I was thinking about this the other day and I'm not 100% on board. I think it sometimes is a symptom of something being wrong but at the same time I think there is a certain (very high ceiling sometimes) skill involved in both setting up for and predicting spawns. I feel like you have to go case by case and break down why a spawn trap occurs and what sort of options the victim has or had to avoid it to figure out when its a map problem vs someone just being really fucking good/smart. 

For some really high level games like take the rig for example the trap wasn't even a particular area. Teams would just get other teams out of sync spawn wise and just repeatedly flip the map and play with numbers back and forth across it. I'm sure it fucking sucked that it was happening and was hard to break out of but at the same time being that conscious of numbers and where the next spawn is takes a lot of skill on the spot

Spawn trapping because you're just that much better at the game than the other team and spawn trapping because the map/spawn system/gunplay is broken are two different things. A spawn "trap" implies by definition a cascading advantage that is difficult, if not almost impossible, to break out of specifically because you are at a significant disadvantage when you spawn. Remember, when you're thinking about designing any element of gameplay, be it a gametype or weapon balance or whatever, you always have to first consider what it looks like when dealing with two squads of equal talent.

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4 & 5 have some pretty trash stories. Wanna talk about not knowing the antagonists reason for doing the thing I had 0 idea why the Didact wanted to murder the human race. 5 is just not good. 

 

CE at least makes some mention of the covenants religion even if it isn't a deep dive into the reason for the war. 

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4 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You say that like Construct was good.

 

FINALLY something we agree on.

That it's an unpopular opinion is a bonus.

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40 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

^ I'm not sure that would work because the line between legit spawn trapping and that gametype being literally impossible to win would be so razor thin. Spawn trapping itself is a symptom of something being wrong with the balance of the game, either the spawn system itself or the map design. I'm not sure you could make a gametype out of it.

Picture it on any symmetrical map. Sanctuary for example. Not really a map known for spawn killing most of the time. The only changes I would make would be to always spawn you all the way against the back wall. Doesn’t always gotta be on flag. Could be rocks, the ramps, or under turret. 

I don’t think the spawn killing aspect would be that big of a problem, especially since the controlling team would need to prioritize killing the forward-most player in order to win.

The part that appeals to me is that as a team gets closer to defeat, their desperation causes them to be more aggressive, not less. I also like how a smart player getting behind enemy lines when his team is pushed back can completely flip the map for his team, because he himself is at that point the victory condition. It’s a nice balance between coordinating to make sure your side is clear, and constantly being pressured to push forward.

@S0UL FLAME can this be done?

@Boyo, satisfied? ;)

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