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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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5 minutes ago, Boyo said:

You know a weapon is really generic when other games copy it by accident.  

It might be an accident, but this is almost a copy with little adjustments. Even the sound and disintegration/burning effect is very similar.

Not that it matters much.

 

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3 hours ago, Hemlax said:

There is a Scattershot in Borderlands 3. I thought i would share.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1In9Tdq0juVZB020eeIj-aAhwoQpJXS1l/view?usp=sharing

 

(Don't know how to embed google video)

 

Is that game any good?

All im hearing about in the press is whining that "its basically borderlands 2 all over again" which is frankly fine by me.  I play borderlands to play borderlands, not something else.  But people are also complaining about major performance issues even on the One X, and i still have an original xbox one so i imagine it would be worse.

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17 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Is that game any good?

All im hearing about in the press is whining that "its basically borderlands 2 all over again" which is frankly fine by me.  I play borderlands to play borderlands, not something else.  But people are also complaining about major performance issues even on the One X, and i still have an original xbox one so i imagine it would be worse.

As a fan of the series, i say its fantastic sequel. More and better in every way. I could write pages about small details i love in this game. Its a love letter to fans really. Gunfight especially feels better.

Thing is though, optimalisation really is poor. No matter how low the settings are, you still get drops and shutters. And smoothness is everything when it comes to shooters. So i would wait for a patch or two.

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17 hours ago, Shekkles said:

That's not an opinion, that's a belief. No-one is "of the opinion" that the earth is flat, they believe the earth is flat.

If you're going to get pedantic at least do it properly. Opinion is a judgement based on facts known to you at that time. A belief is based on faith in the absence or denial of fact.

It's hardly pedantic when we're literally debating whether or not an opinion can be wrong. 

To continue with the example then, using your definition of opinion as "a judgement based on facts known to you at that time" (I don't agree with that definition, btw): someone 500 years ago could be of the opinion that the earth is flat, based on all the known facts at that time. That opinion would be wrong. 

An opinion does not require factual backing to be considered an opinion. 

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I don’t get how an opinion of what someone personally likes can be wrong? Am I missing something here? 

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4 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I don’t get how an opinion of what someone personally likes can be wrong? Am I missing something here? 

Well thats not what they’re discussing. Theyre discussing if opinions (in any sense) can be wrong. 

 

No one is arguing “mcdonald tastes good” is right/wrong. 

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Opinions can't be wrong as they are inherently unprovable. If it's something provable and it's wrong, then it was never really an opinion to begin with. It was a delusion or fallacy. "Alternative facts" don't fly.

"Projectile weapons are more competitive than hitscan weapons" is a fact, provided you define 'competitive' as a statistically verifiable predictor of skill, not 'feels sweaty' lol.

"Projectile weapons are more fun/better for gameplay/better to watch" is an opinion. Its based on a subjective feeling and can therefore neither be proven nor disproven.

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1 hour ago, Riddler said:

Well thats not what they’re discussing. Theyre discussing if opinions (in any sense) can be wrong. 

 

No one is arguing “mcdonald tastes good” is right/wrong. 

But that’s what an opinion is, it’s not exactly wrong but it’s not right either. A homophobe would use a term saying “gay marriage is wrong” and use their religion to justify that opinion. There’s those who’d disagree and would agree with him/her. At the end of the day opinions deep down can’t be wrong, unless someone’s opinion is coming off as a fact. With the gay marriage thing that person would probably view it as fact, but there’s ways to debate why it’s wrong, objectively sure, but it won’t change their opinion at the end of the day. Debating opinions has a pointless context to it, since it’s rare that you change that person or people’s mind. 

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1 minute ago, Apoll0 said:

Opinions can't be wrong as they are inherently unprovable. If it's something provable and it's wrong, then it was never really an opinion to begin with. It was a delusion or fallacy. "Alternative facts" don't fly.

"Projectile weapons are more competitive than hitscan weapons" is a fact, provided you define 'competitive' as a statistically verifiable predictor of skill, not 'feels sweaty' lol.

"Projectile weapons are more fun/better for gameplay/better to watch" is an opinion. Its based on a subjective feeling and can therefore neither be proven nor disproven.

But even the fact you just displayed could be debated, because someone such as Iceprincess or beast, would say something like hitscan provides more consistency so therefore it’s more skillful.

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8 minutes ago, Arlong said:

But even the fact you just displayed could be debated, because someone such as Iceprincess or beast, would say something like hitscan provides more consistency so therefore it’s more skillful.

Hitscan and projectile are just as consistent as one another.  A hitscan weapon that fires and hits instantly every time is just as consistent in its flightpath as a projectile weapon that takes time to reach its target. Even a slow projectile with significant bullet drop is just as consistent as a hitscan weapon, all else being equal.

Any perceived inconsistency isn't a function of the weapon type, its a function of lag and hit detection which are separate issues that can effect both hitscan and projectile weapons.

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2 hours ago, Arlong said:

I don’t get how an opinion of what someone personally likes can be wrong? Am I missing something here? 

An opinion on subjective taste can't be wrong. If you define opinion as "a personal judgement on a subjective matter," then no, an opinion cannot be wrong. But that's not the definition of opinion, no matter what people on here seem to want to think. 

Here are several definitions: 

" a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter"

"a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."

"the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing."

"a formal statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter."

"opinion and belief mean a judgment that someone thinks is true."

 

None of those definitions require an opinion to be unverifiable or completely subjective. You can have an opinion on something that is factually incorrect, whether those facts are currently known or not known. People are trying to argue that I'm using "opinion" wrong because it doesn't meet their definition of opinion. That's not how it works. 

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8 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Hitscan and projectile are just as consistent as one another.  A hitscan weapon that fires and hits instantly every time is just as consistent in its flightpath as a projectile weapon that takes time to reach its target. Even a slow projectile with significant bullet drop is just as consistent as a hitscan weapon, all else being equal.

Any perceived inconsistency isn't a function of the weapon type, its a function of lag and hit detection which are separate issues that can effect both hitscan and projectile weapons.

But is that true? In a projectile game someone’s movement could cause that bullet to miss, even when that persons reticule is deadset on them. But a hitscan weapon would hit every time no? Consistency is hard to debate if you ask me tbh. B

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1 minute ago, Arlong said:

But is that true? In a projectile game someone’s movement could cause that bullet to miss, even when that persons reticule is deadset on them. But a hitscan weapon would hit every time no? Consistency is hard to debate if you ask me tbh. B

Even in this case the weapon itself has been perfectly consistent.  The player moved, not the bullet. The bullet was going to take the same path regardless of where the player was.  The game may feel inconsistent to the player, but that's is not whats happening. In a competitive sense, this is superior.  The player has to account for more variables with any given shot. That does not mean it makes for a good experience or that its good for the game as a whole.  If i could ask a game developer, i would bet that the hardest part of designing the multiplayer component of any game is balancing the skill aspects with the accessibility.  The recent trend in games seems to unfortunately skew heavily towards accessibility at the expense of skill. Most of the recent truly skill-focused games are either totally niche or have outright failed.  Making a purely skill-focused game seems easy because you can literally just do the math and say "This is the most skillful implementation" and you would be right.  Problem is it's the subjective shit that gets people in the door and keeps them playing so how do you honor both at the same time?

 

/rant

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1 minute ago, Apoll0 said:

Even in this case the weapon itself has been perfectly consistent.  The player moved, not the bullet. The bullet was going to take the same path regardless of where the player was.  The game may feel inconsistent to the player, but that's is not whats happening. In a competitive sense, this is superior.  The player has to account for more variables with any given shot. That does not mean it makes for a good experience or that its good for the game as a whole.  If i could ask a game developer, i would bet that the hardest part of designing the multiplayer component of any game is balancing the skill aspects with the accessibility.  The recent trend in games seems to unfortunately skew heavily towards accessibility at the expense of skill. Most of the recent truly skill-focused games are either totally niche or have outright failed.  Making a purely skill-focused game seems easy because you can literally just do the math and say "This is the most skillful implementation" and you would be right.  Problem is it's the subjective shit that gets people in the door and keeps them playing so how do you honor both at the same time?

 

/rant

When it comes to skill I say projectile, but no randomness, add controllable recoil patterns, just something. 

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23 minutes ago, Arlong said:

When it comes to skill I say projectile, but no randomness, add controllable recoil patterns, just something. 

Unpredictable player movement is a better balancing factor than recoil.  Just make base player movement quick, crisp, and clean and landing shots will be hard enough without recoil.

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18 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Unpredictable player movement is a better balancing factor than recoil.  Just make base player movement quick, crisp, and clean and landing shots will be hard enough without recoil.

Depends on the game, in halos case definitely, as high recoil doesn’t work, but I think a little is ok looking at apex legends. I think recoil should only be a thing when scoping in though, to make weapons not op at long ranged. 

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25 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Depends on the game, in halos case definitely, as high recoil doesn’t work, but I think a little is ok looking at apex legends. I think recoil should only be a thing when scoping in though, to make weapons not op at long ranged. 

The combination of quick movement and projectile travel time inherently limit weapons’ ranged effectiveness.  My target’s movement is what should cause me to miss, not my weapon’s movement.

I want to fight the enemy, not my gun.

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Just now, Boyo said:

The combination of quick movement and projectile travel time inherently limit weapons’ ranged effectiveness.  My target’s movement is what should cause me to miss, not my weapon’s movement.

I want to fight the enemy, not my gun.

Why shouldn’t your Weapons movement cause you to miss?  Controlling recoil is a skill. Movement can not be made so fast where you can dodge bullets with ease, as that hasn’t happened in a halo game, and even ce is no exception. 

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11 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Why shouldn’t your Weapons movement cause you to miss?  Controlling recoil is a skill. Movement can not be made so fast where you can dodge bullets with ease, as that hasn’t happened in a halo game, and even ce is no exception. 

When player movement is sufficiently quick, thus unpredictable, weapon recoil is unnecessary because there is already an element of uncontrolled movement in the aiming equation:  your target.

Controlling recoil is an unnecessary skill in Halo.  Your target’s movement should be vastly more unpredictable than your weapon’s recoil.

A player’s aim and his target’s movement are what should determine if a shot successfully lands.  Not which direction the recoil decided to kick in.

Even just vertical recoil, it rewards bodyshotting and letting the recoil work the reticle up towards the head for the final headshot.  The reticle’s placement should be controlled by a human’s input, not a game mechanic.

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

When player movement is sufficiently quick, thus unpredictable, weapon recoil is unnecessary because there is already an element of uncontrolled movement in the aiming equation:  your target.

Controlling recoil is an unnecessary skill in Halo.  Your target’s movement should be vastly more unpredictable than your weapon’s recoil.

A player’s aim and his target’s movement are what should determine if a shot successfully lands.  Not which direction the recoil decided to kick in.

Even just vertical recoil, it rewards bodyshotting and letting the recoil work the reticle up towards the head for the final headshot.  The reticle’s placement should be controlled by a human’s input, not a game mechanic.

A guns recoil is a human input though? And so what if someone aims for the body and lets it eventually reach the head, that’s a form of controlling the recoil. Look in halo the movement will never be that fast and unpredictable, look at overwatch, that game has the strafing ability you’re talking about, and it’s not hard to hit someone, even on dps characters whom have small body models where hitting them is as hard/easy as hitting one in a halo game. Apex legends has strafing ability like that as well with moderate levels of recoil. It’s not high but it’s not so minuscule where you can spam as you please. It’s easily controllable. 

Seriously it sounds like when you hear the word recoil in halo it wouldn’t work, when there’s good examples of it working. Splitgate would be a better example as that’s an arena game, and plays like halo. 

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2 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Sprint bad.

I've stopped jogging in real life because I hate sprint so much. 

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