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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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14 hours ago, Basu said:

So you're still falling for Holmes' wordplay and getting stuck with debates about useless semantics? Cool. 

The "this" in my quote obviously references the recoil and spread reductions, not ADS as a whole.  Funny this is coming from someone who uses "you can't read" as her standard defense mechanism. 

Why are you defending this garbage if you don't even like it? 

I'll defend it because context and words do matter to me, and calling people liars off the rip over digging into what's said, why it's said, and how just irks me, irrationally. Assuming people's intent is always dumb to me. Regardless of a like or dislike of a game's implementation of something.

Which is why I'll also keep reiterating that there is a defined difference between the two. It isn't useless semantics just because you say so and dismiss what I say. If anything, the one sentence, substanceless dismissal is kinda its own proof to my point, lol.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand nah. I always say you don't read. Not you can't read. I understand people can and that's why I get dumbstruck. Because the potential is there, yet shit's still said in poor taste, form, etc. Like the below response.

8 hours ago, JordanB said:

I... wasn't talking to you. I was referring to Ice's post quoting it and not making a single point except bolding that other FPS games do it.

Good talk dude. Calm your attitude.

You whiffed harder than a Bronze in H5 if you think my point centered on other FPS games doing it. But go on, quote me on where I said that, or made it my point. Would be glad to know.

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35 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

The range at which a player is strong with his spawning weapon is a crucial element in Halo that definitely needs to be weighed before we go doing something like removing zoom from it. 4v4 Halo has always been an "if you see it, shoot it" game, where the player has basically been able to competently engage from almost literally any distance with the weapon that's in his hands off spawn. If that goes away, it could have a significant effect on gameplay, for better or for worse. 

Wouldn't this be a non-issue on Arena-sized maps so long as the RRR is increased accordingly? I'd imagine it could get weird on huge ass BTB maps.

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46 minutes ago, TeeJaY said:

Wouldn't this be a non-issue on Arena-sized maps so long as the RRR is increased accordingly? I'd imagine it could get weird on huge ass BTB maps.

It might be an issue, it might not. It's difficult to say because Halo has never been played that way in a 4v4 setting. RRR is kind of a bogus solution, we don't want the game aiming FOR you in place of just having zoom (keep in mind, you are expected to land way more of your shots in Halo than any other shooter that comes to mind). 

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Just to clarify, RRR is Red Reticule Range?

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4 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

1: what does jumping and moving have to do with having scopes

2: how is jumping and moving not considered positional skill

3: since when has Halo not been about jumping and moving

4: there has been about 20 years of Quake and Doom games without scoping, it was only standardized in the last iterations because they didn't know what to do with the LT button on the controller. The lead designer on those games from CA sat right behind me for a year he told me this himself. And those zooms are basically useless.

5: you're describing to me the functionality of a zoom and I'm well aware of what it does, I'm telling you that the LEAST offensive version of a zoom in Halo is still a stacked advantage. It means the first player to land a shot and descope the other player will have a much easier time continuing to land shots. It's a button that's there to make your job easier and nothing else. I can recognize that and still be fine with its existence in Halo yet still recognize that the sandbox would probably perform tighter if it weren't there. 

Maybe you’re right it would, but I don’t think I’d want that for halo. Also in halos case the jumping is more of a strafe thing, where in quake you’re constantly doing that. It’s less about getting to that amazing position. Like you’re not exactly trying to get map control, you’re just trying to kill the other opponent, it’s that simple. The way it happens in quake is way different. I see you’re a quake lover but I’m not, and I can tell a big difference between halos gameplay and quakes and I prefer halos. 

Is it bad that the guy who did the first shot now has an advantage? I’ve seen the maps in quake and they don’t nearly have as many long ranged fights compared to halo, heck’s in quake you get across the map in half a second. It’s movement speed is beyond fast. 

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On 8/27/2019 at 7:03 PM, TheIcePrincess said:

It literally tightens your spread by a huge margin. Even within RRR it makes sense to zoom in because it reduces you spread so much. Really, RRR extension is a smaller benefit than getting your weapon spread and recoil cut by 75% just by tapping a button. This functions exactly like CoD, Battlefield, Titanfall and all the other modern military FPS.  How is this not forcing me to use the scope in order to not be at a massive disadvantage? I'd love to see an AR or SMG  1v1 past CQC range with one dude scoping in and the other hipfiring. (inb4 "youre a dumbass for using the smg at that range").

Here's the quote, you gave no reply all you did was highlight and bold the parts about how other FPS games do it. 

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24 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Maybe you’re right it would, but I don’t think I’d want that for halo. Also in halos case the jumping is more of a strafe thing, where in quake you’re constantly doing that. It’s less about getting to that amazing position. Like you’re not exactly trying to get map control, you’re just trying to kill the other opponent, it’s that simple. The way it happens in quake is way different. I see you’re a quake lover but I’m not, and I can tell a big difference between halos gameplay and quakes and I prefer halos. 

Is it bad that the guy who did the first shot now has an advantage? I’ve seen the maps in quake and they don’t nearly have as many long ranged fights compared to halo, heck’s in quake you get across the map in half a second. It’s movement speed is beyond fast.  

"Is it bad that the guy who did the first shot now has an advantage?"

 

Yes.  It's called snowballing.  The precedent of every skill based and well designed game is that every advantage is earned and proportionate to the work required to achieve it.  Zoom might be the least offensive version of this to ever exist, which I'll reiterate - why this conversation is just a thought discussion for me and nothing else.  But getting the first shot outside of RRR with the utility weapon more often than not seals the deal in your favor. Constantly being descoped and cycling from zoom to unzoomed because you're being repinged by the other opponent who had the first shot is pretty frustrating, especially when it inverts your intention and you're hitting unzoom but you're actually zooming because their shot hit you just before you hit it (only an issue on toggle zoom). 

 

"I’ve seen the maps in quake and they don’t nearly have as many long ranged fights compared to halo, heck’s in quake you get across the map in half a second. It’s movement speed is beyond fast.  "

They have much longer range fights than Halo, happening at much faster speed, with much smaller windows of opportunity to hit opponents. And they still hit the shots.  And yes they use KBM but so is the entire future of Halo so these are the things that are worth talking about I think. I only spurned this conversation because I thought what Boyo said was right - given the choice between offering additional ADS bonus & AA to every weapon in Halo, or flat out removing zoom; removing zoom would undoubtedly be the better choice.

The range of the utility weapon is not the determining factor that the balance lies on; it's the lethality and skill of the weapon at range.  H2/A BR has all the range in the world and is just as much of a bully as AR starts given the right map geometry to defend because you don't have the potential to cross open spaces without the enemy 4shotting.  By removing zoom peak weapon efficiency doesn't actually decrease considering the weapon has the same killing power. It's just more difficult to use without hitting the RS to get your aim assist bonus at range - which it should.  This is a blatant advantage for players aggressing on static power positions considering placing your reticle without zoom at range requires a finer touch.  It would likely just compress the combat ranges of everything 20% or so while not touching the higher end of the skill ceiling's average kill time.

 


All that said, I'll reiterate.  I think classic Halo's zooms are fine lol and characteristic. I just see it as a superfluous mechanic for the franchise going forward especially with KBM players.  It's no longer going to serve the one purpose it held, which was give AA as it'll be absent.

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28 minutes ago, JordanB said:

Here's the quote, you gave no reply all you did was highlight and bold the parts about how other FPS games do it. 

Y-e-s. To point out to Basu he did say it was "exactly like" those games, when he said he didn't. I never once claimed that post was my viewpoint itself.

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I'll be honest, I get the issue with descope being kind of jarring but I don't see it as an insurmountable obstacle when trying to kill another player. Presumably you'd practice and be able to not freakout when descoped.

 

Of course, many would say descope is great simply because it's alternative mechanic (flinch) was worse. But you don't have to have flinch either.

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18 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

I'll be honest, I get the issue with descope being kind of jarring but I don't see it as an insurmountable obstacle when trying to kill another player. Presumably you'd practice and be able to not freakout when descoped.

 

Of course, many would say descope is great simply because it's alternative mechanic (flinch) was worse. But you don't have to have flinch either.

But then we have these long ranged fights with no skill in between. @MultiLockOn you’re not taking into account a lot of times the opponent doesn’t hit all his shots, and you get a chance to fight back and counter scope battle. And this would happen many times in h5 and reach v7(I’m using these two examples since they’re the only weapons in the series that are 100% accurate(yes I know the DMR has a bit spread but it’s so minimal and non gameplay breaking that taking it into account is a bit ridiculous)  where you can counter shoot.(I’d also disagree on the long ranged fighting in quake simply because it’s so easy to get from point a to b, I’ve played them all dude as I can tell you have) these battles are always pretty interesting. I’d also disagree with the mentioning of increased AA, a scope is simply meant to be easier to shoot at range, and in other halos it doesn’t increase the AA(or at least it’s hardly noticeable except in h5’s Case). I don’t hate scopes in shooters, as I don’t believe they’re detrimental at all, and it’s fair to note quake isn’t exactly a well loved game(anymore), so maybe there’s a reason for that😅 in quake it may of worked, but for obvious reasons. 

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32 minutes ago, Arlong said:

it’s fair to note quake isn’t exactly a well loved game(anymore), so maybe there’s a reason for that😅

 

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44 minutes ago, Arlong said:

But then we have these long ranged fights with no skill in between. @MultiLockOn you’re not taking into account a lot of times the opponent doesn’t hit all his shots, and you get a chance to fight back and counter scope battle. And this would happen many times in h5 and reach v7(I’m using these two examples since they’re the only weapons in the series that are 100% accurate(yes I know the DMR has a bit spread but it’s so minimal and non gameplay breaking that taking it into account is a bit ridiculous)  where you can counter shoot.(I’d also disagree on the long ranged fighting in quake simply because it’s so easy to get from point a to b, I’ve played them all dude as I can tell you have) these battles are always pretty interesting. I’d also disagree with the mentioning of increased AA, a scope is simply meant to be easier to shoot at range, and in other halos it doesn’t increase the AA(or at least it’s hardly noticeable except in h5’s Case). I don’t hate scopes in shooters, as I don’t believe they’re detrimental at all, and it’s fair to note quake isn’t exactly a well loved game(anymore), so maybe there’s a reason for that😅 in quake it may of worked, but for obvious reasons. 

"you’re not taking into account a lot of times the opponent doesn’t hit all his shots, and you get a chance to fight back and counter scope battle."

So you're banking on the opponent missing a shot within RRR to allow you to get back into the fight.  I don't buy this justification any more than I would justify someone picking up the incineration canon off of an ordnance drop and responding with "Well, he can still miss and you can fight back!".  The underlying reasoning for this is - If we are out of standard RRR, we both zoom in, you hit the first shot and descope me; I'm now at a pretty significant disadvantage to descoping you in return. It's a stacked advantage. Admittedly a minor one but if we're talking about design here I think that's worth noting. Descope has largely been spoken about in favor for years because it's HUGELY preferable to flinch, but it's not without its own similar issues.

 

"And this would happen many times in h5 and reach v7(I’m using these two examples since they’re the only weapons in the series that are 100% accurate(yes I know the DMR has a bit spread but it’s so minimal and non gameplay breaking that taking it into account is a bit ridiculous)  where you can counter shoot.(I’d also disagree on the long ranged fighting in quake simply because it’s so easy to get from point a to b, I’ve played them all dude as I can tell you have)"

So because you've outshot someone before after you've been descoped you don't see an issue with it.

 

" I’d also disagree with the mentioning of increased AA, a scope is simply meant to be easier to shoot at range, and in other halos it doesn’t increase the AA(or at least it’s hardly noticeable except in h5’s Case)"

That's literally what zooming in Halo does.  It increases your aim assist range when you magnify. I'd actually like to see a solution with screen magnification without any of the extra RRR though.

 

" and it’s fair to note quake isn’t exactly a well loved game(anymore), so maybe there’s a reason for that😅 in quake it may of worked, but for obvious reasons. "

This sentence is provocative and stupid and you've just killed any interest I have in conversating with you.

1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

I'll be honest, I get the issue with descope being kind of jarring but I don't see it as an insurmountable obstacle when trying to kill another player. Presumably you'd practice and be able to not freakout when descoped.

 

Of course, many would say descope is great simply because it's alternative mechanic (flinch) was worse. But you don't have to have flinch either.

It's really not the biggest deal, this is just a conversation to me.

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9 minutes ago, L377UC3 said:

 

Bruh ain’t no one even hear about quake these days😂 be honest when was the last time you even heard of it? On twitch, FB, any game news channel? 

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3 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

"you’re not taking into account a lot of times the opponent doesn’t hit all his shots, and you get a chance to fight back and counter scope battle."

So you're banking on the opponent missing a shot within RRR to allow you to get back into the fight.  I don't buy this justification any more than I would justify someone picking up the incineration canon off of an ordnance drop and responding with "Well, he can still miss and you can fight back!".  The underlying reasoning for this is - If we are out of standard RRR, we both zoom in, you hit the first shot and descope me; I'm now at a pretty significant disadvantage to descoping you in return. It's a stacked advantage. Admittedly a minor one but if we're talking about design here I think that's worth noting. Descope has largely been spoken about in favor for years because it's HUGELY preferable to flinch, but it's not without its own similar issues.

 

"And this would happen many times in h5 and reach v7(I’m using these two examples since they’re the only weapons in the series that are 100% accurate(yes I know the DMR has a bit spread but it’s so minimal and non gameplay breaking that taking it into account is a bit ridiculous)  where you can counter shoot.(I’d also disagree on the long ranged fighting in quake simply because it’s so easy to get from point a to b, I’ve played them all dude as I can tell you have)"

So because you've outshot someone before after you've been descoped you don't see an issue with it.

 

" I’d also disagree with the mentioning of increased AA, a scope is simply meant to be easier to shoot at range, and in other halos it doesn’t increase the AA(or at least it’s hardly noticeable except in h5’s Case)"

That's literally what zooming in Halo does.  It increases your aim assist range when you magnify. I'd actually like to see a solution with screen magnification without any of the extra RRR though.

 

" and it’s fair to note quake isn’t exactly a well loved game(anymore), so maybe there’s a reason for that😅 in quake it may of worked, but for obvious reasons. "

This sentence is provocative and stupid and you've just killed any interest I have in conversating with you.

It's really not the biggest deal, this is just a thought experiment for me.

Quake is just boring I’m sorry, it’s just really not my cup of tea and I love halo, it’s just not fun. I get it, it’s fun for someone who grew up on it, but I don’t think many like it. I mean quake champions didn’t do so hot. Like I’d like it if doom made a solid MP. 

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5 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Quake is just boring I’m sorry, it’s just really not my cup of tea and I love halo, it’s just not fun. I get it, it’s fun for someone who grew up on it, but I don’t think many like it. I mean quake champions didn’t do so hot. Like I’d like it if doom made a solid MP. 

good talk

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5 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Quake is just boring I’m sorry, it’s just really not my cup of tea and I love halo, it’s just not fun. I get it, it’s fun for someone who grew up on it, but I don’t think many like it. I mean quake champions didn’t do so hot. Like I’d like it if doom made a solid MP. 

Motherfucker I was 9 months old when Quake 3 came out and I know this is bullshit. Ima blow your tiny mind - but good design doesn't fucking age.

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13 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

good talk

You can only use games he likes as examples.

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20 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

You can only use games he likes as examples.

I mean it wouldn’t be too hard smarty, just come up with a shooter, I like majority of them, 

33 minutes ago, L377UC3 said:

Motherfucker I was 9 months old when Quake 3 came out and I know this is bullshit. Ima blow your tiny mind - but good design doesn't fucking age.

Eh guess you’re just one of the exceptions but I bet you most people my age(20) don’t even know what that game is. 

34 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

good talk

I get it, I insulted your beloved game. I’m more of a halo guy, the game is and has always been fun to me(outside of 4&5) and after playing quake it just wasn’t enjoyable.  I didn’t even play badly or anything, it just wasn’t super great to me, could of been the way one plays it or something. Sheesh. I’ll just not comment here for a few days and go back to Reddit. 

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4 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I mean it wouldn’t be too hard smarty, just come up with a shooter, I like majority of them, 

Eh guess you’re just one of the exceptions but I bet you most people my age(20) don’t even know what that game is. 

I get it, I insulted your beloved game. I’m more of a halo guy, the game is and has always been fun to me(outside of 4&5) and after playing quake it just wasn’t enjoyable.  I didn’t even play badly or anything, it just wasn’t super great to me, could of been the way one plays it or something.

You didn't insult anything, you're just not even attempting to say anything intelligent so I don't see why anyone would entertain this conversation any further.

I'm 23.  I didn't start actually playing quake until 3 years ago. I didn't even like Halo CE until MCC came out.

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7 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

You didn't insult anything, you're just not even attempting to say anything intelligent so I don't see why anyone would entertain this conversation any further.

I'm 23.  I didn't start actually playing quake until 3 years ago. I didn't even like Halo CE until MCC came out.

Yeah because this is an Internet forum, not everyone is you who try’s his ass off when discussing his viewpoints. You literally sit at your computer and explain detail by detail on how something works and what doesn’t work. I’m just on my mobile phone, so I’m not in the mood to text out as much detail, it’s much better to summarize something than to write something that would be seen as a college essay paper. I just tell it as it is, I’m not trying to be intelligent when I say something, I’m just being blunt and a bit ignorant I can admit. I’m not going to explain detail by detail on why I feel quake isn’t a good game, why I don’t find MC a MP game just to prove I’m right, I’ll say my opinion and that’s that. I don’t have to say this is bad because of x reasons, then go into more detail on why those reasons are the way they are. In fact no one has to do that at all, but people choose to do so or they’ll look ignorant, and if the answer isn’t satisfactory they’re being unintelligent. 

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Quake has ridiculous movement speed, which negates the whole positioning skill you’d see in other shooters, as the games arcadey play style works with this. The maps are usually tight cornered and bit wide to take into account the ridiculous speed and even more speed you’d get from spamming the jump button. The game focuses on a variety of guns but it mostly focuses on the rockets, rail gun, and that electrical(don’t know it’s name). The tracking isn’t easy but it’s not exactly easy to handle either when you pick it up out the box. The games fast paced combat is bizarre and feels so strange where if you played halo you’d say “this is too much” it’s a game i tried since I was told it was like halo, and I gave it a shot and immediately came to a conclusion this was false as the only similarity was they were both hip fire games, and had weapons on the map, but other than that they play and look completely different. I’m going based on my experience with quake 3 and champions I’ll add. I added what I know of the game sorry I’m not you who needs to know everything about the fucking game down to its god damn fucking core! 

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8 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Quake has ridiculous movement speed, which negates the whole positioning skill you’d see in other shooters, as the games arcadey play style works with this. The maps are usually tight cornered and bit wide to take into account the ridiculous speed and even more speed you’d get from spamming the jump button. The game focuses on a variety of guns but it mostly focuses on the rockets, rail gun, and that electrical(don’t know it’s name). The tracking isn’t easy but it’s not exactly easy to handle either when you pick it up out the box. The games fast paced combat is bizarre and feels so strange where if you played halo you’d say “this is too much” it’s a game i tried since I was told it was like halo, and I gave it a shot and immediately came to a conclusion this was false as the only similarity was they were both hip fire games, and had weapons on the map, but other than that they play and look completely different. I’m going based on my experience with quake 3 and champions I’ll add. 

In the same post where you're trying to prove that you have a strong understanding of Quake, you've admitted you don't know what the lightning gun is called.

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4 hours ago, Arlong said:

 It’s less about getting to that amazing position. Like you’re not exactly trying to get map control, you’re just trying to kill the other opponent, it’s that simple. 

Oh my God, you're so ignorant it hurts.  Watch one duel between good players. Literally fucking one.

I see you’re a quake lover but I’m not

You don't say?

 

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

I mean it wouldn’t be too hard smarty, just come up with a shooter, I like majority of them, 

Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter. 

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