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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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50 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Additionally, a bonus to scoping isn't the same as a hipfire penalty. You can claim it's clever writing or w/e the fuck you wanna claim, but a bonus to scoping doesn't mean the gun out of scope is inherently weak. Whereas a hipfire penalty inherently denotes a punishment to hipfire, out of scope by wording and definition. Two different things. Not gonna be snarky, but break down the sentences.

Bonus to scoping - Implies a bonus on top of hipfiring. Not inherently labeling hipfire in a negative fashion. Adding onto something. You're not being told you're rewarded exclusively for scoping in, but that bonuses exist when you do, in this context, under specific circumstances, mostly range. The thing about this is it's also vague. The LR can have the term "bonus to scoping" mean two things. Its range increase, OR its damage increase. But the LR in spite of its bonuses doesn't lose its efficiency or ability to kill out of scope as we see and know. It's just meant for a different engagement. You won't be ADS threeing people in CQC, even though the fire-mode melts. Much like you won't hipfire across the map out of RRR. The range is just a bonus when you need it. With that said, please just hold the ADS button down constantly like it IS CoD, it'd make my job easier than it already is. 

Hipfire penalty - Implies there's a downside, potentially severe to hipfire, you're being punished in some way by definition. Easy example is any sniper in CoD. Most if not all of them have insane hipfire penalties. And enforce a quickscope/scoped in gameplay style. Because you outright can't perform well, if AT ALL just hipfiring. You're punished for it by spread and a lack of any range, with your ADS mechanic being the thing actually making the gun work. It relies on, and is dependent on it, it doesn't treat it as a side-mode of fire. The contrast between this and Halo is that Halo isn't forcing you to ADS, or forcing you to hipfire. It's all dependent on circumstance.

I agree completely. This is analogous to a mother giving a cookie to the first child that offers to empty the cupboard of expired foods. One child takes the offer, and is rewarded with a cookie (albeit stale, as the aforementioned cookie was also from the pantry of expired goods). The other child, jealous for not having received a tasty snack, becomes reticent and withdrawn.

Now, was the child who didn't clean the pantry punished? No, at worst we can say he just wasn't rewarded with a stale cookie (interestingly enough, the reason for the staleness was not prolonged storage, but there was actually a puncture in the bag which allowed air in).

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2 hours ago, NavG123 said:

I agree completely. This is analogous to a mother giving a cookie to the first child that offers to empty the cupboard of expired foods. One child takes the offer, and is rewarded with a cookie (albeit stale, as the aforementioned cookie was also from the pantry of expired goods). The other child, jealous for not having received a tasty snack, becomes reticent and withdrawn.

Now, was the child who didn't clean the pantry punished? No, at worst we can say he just wasn't rewarded with a stale cookie (interestingly enough, the reason for the staleness was not prolonged storage, but there was actually a puncture in the bag which allowed air in).

Yeah, I like cookies, too.

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I'm sad they got rid of the chewy peanut butter chips ahoy

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8 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

The SMG is worth the effort if you're gonna be at least relevant in trying to prove your point. It'd have been funnier if it was the more relevant, current-meta SMG. 

And I didn't shift any posts. It's you who was hinging on this arbitrary bonus thing when the point is on the fact the gun is straight up functional out of scope in its designated range.

Additionally, a bonus to scoping isn't the same as a hipfire penalty. You can claim it's clever writing or w/e the fuck you wanna claim, but a bonus to scoping doesn't mean the gun out of scope is inherently weak. Whereas a hipfire penalty inherently denotes a punishment to hipfire, out of scope by wording and definition. Two different things. Not gonna be snarky, but break down the sentences.

Bonus to scoping - Implies a bonus on top of hipfiring. Not inherently labeling hipfire in a negative fashion. Adding onto something. You're not being told you're rewarded exclusively for scoping in, but that bonuses exist when you do, in this context, under specific circumstances, mostly range. The thing about this is it's also vague. The LR can have the term "bonus to scoping" mean two things. Its range increase, OR its damage increase. But the LR in spite of its bonuses doesn't lose its efficiency or ability to kill out of scope as we see and know. It's just meant for a different engagement. You won't be ADS threeing people in CQC, even though the fire-mode melts. Much like you won't hipfire across the map out of RRR. The range is just a bonus when you need it. With that said, please just hold the ADS button down constantly like it IS CoD, it'd make my job easier than it already is. 

Hipfire penalty - Implies there's a downside, potentially severe to hipfire, you're being punished in some way by definition. Easy example is any sniper in CoD. Most if not all of them have insane hipfire penalties. And enforce a quickscope/scoped in gameplay style. Because you outright can't perform well, if AT ALL just hipfiring. You're punished for it by spread and a lack of any range, with your ADS mechanic being the thing actually making the gun work. It relies on, and is dependent on it, it doesn't treat it as a side-mode of fire. The contrast between this and Halo is that Halo isn't forcing you to ADS, or forcing you to hipfire. It's all dependent on circumstance. 

P.S) Recoil reduction was caused by crouching, not ADS. Solid. Movement bloom also doesn't exist. Nor does an ADS speed penalty, barring your sensitivity slowing, which also isn't exclusive to this game. And plz plxy pl0x don't say sprint is that, because sprint stops you from doing anything gun-wise and obviously isn't exclusively tied to ADS for what it affects.

Four, holy fuck I can't believe I have to quote this. Context and all.

 

So you're still falling for Holmes' wordplay and getting stuck with debates about useless semantics? Cool. 

The "this" in my quote obviously references the recoil and spread reductions, not ADS as a whole.  Funny this is coming from someone who uses "you can't read" as her standard defense mechanism. 

Why are you defending this garbage if you don't even like it? 

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17 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Quake.

 

And to be honest there's no reason TO have a scope. If your intent is that a weapon is reasonable at X range give or take, why muddy the waters with a zoom. BEST case scenario is that it's literally just a screen magnification and nothing else, but then you run into descoping battles where the first player to shoot now has a stacked advantage over the other player by continuing to descope (this is especially damaging with semi-auto utility weapons since the BR had some spray capability when descoped). But Halo isn't JUST a magnification, it literally extends the RRR and aim assist functions of a gun. Think about that for a second. 

You have a button on your controller that when pressed does essentially nothing but give you more auto aim. That is its purpose. If you were to ask me as a designer you might as well make LT / RS a damage boost at that point, its principally not far off. 

 

All that being said I would never remove zoom from Halo because I know how ingrained it is in the formula, just like I wouldn't remove recharging shields even though I think non recharging health is a better designed alternative - I recognize that it's characteristic to the franchise despise what I think are design shortcomings. But you should be capable of recognizing these things when the conversation comes up instead of reflecting like you have been.

Actually quake has guns with scopes, quake is also about constantly jumping and moving rather than positional skill. 

And that’s a console shooter for you, it provides more AA when scoped, it extends the RRR, the game is programmed to give more AA at that point. The point of scoped weaponry is to give extra range on a weapon, it makes it so you can sit at that position and be More accurate. Unless you make it so the RRR is as big as it is SCOPED, then we’re done here. 

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17 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

You'd think you would know better than to make these absolute claims by now...

The fact is you can’t bring up a shooter that doesn’t have em. So you can shut up right now. 

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So your argument for:

"It literally tightens your spread by a huge margin. Even within RRR it makes sense to zoom in because it reduces you spread so much. Really, RRR extension is a smaller benefit than getting your weapon spread and recoil cut by 75% just by tapping a button"

Is... Other FPS games do it? Yeah, I forgot copying what all other games do is definitely the best choice for Halo. Because yanno, why even have different FPS games then if they're all supposed to act the same way.

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2 minutes ago, Arlong said:

The fact is you can’t bring up a shooter that doesn’t have em. So you can shut up right now. 

If you disagree with Arlong, please shut up right now.

Eventually we can close all forums because there will no longer be differentiating opinions. Sounds like a great idea

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4 minutes ago, JordanB said:

So your argument for:

"It literally tightens your spread by a huge margin. Even within RRR it makes sense to zoom in because it reduces you spread so much. Really, RRR extension is a smaller benefit than getting your weapon spread and recoil cut by 75% just by tapping a button"

Is... Other FPS games do it? Yeah, I forgot copying what all other games do is definitely the best choice for Halo. Because yanno, why even have different FPS games then if they're all supposed to act the same way.

STFU because halo has done it since day one. This isn’t halo copying sprint and Advanced movement, its a mechanic that is natural, especially on FPS games. Every FPS game has some similarities and that’s not a bad thing in any way.

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4 minutes ago, JordanB said:

If you disagree with Arlong, please shut up right now.

Eventually we can close all forums because there will no longer be differentiating opinions. Sounds like a great idea

Opinions are to be challenged, but facts aren’t. I said you can’t find a shooter without scopes, and that sir is a fact. He tried to shut me down saying I’m wrong, heck’s even multi did but he was proven wrong immediately. 

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Hells even in PUBG scopes reduce recoil in some way, it makes it easier to hit people at range, a game I’ll add that doesn’t even give any range benefits other than its easier to aim at that distance. That’s the point of scopes, because no game especially halo will increase the RRR to extreme levels. The farthest it’ll ever be is the CE and DMR level. 

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To be clear, I don’t want scopes removed.  I just think that no zoom mechanic at all would be better than ADS on all weapons.  In fact, I would expand upon changing firemodes through scoping, like the Light Rifle does, as a trait for multiple Promethean weapons.  Also, the Plasma Rifle would make recent enemy footprints visible with the scope button.  A different kind of vision enhancer.  The Scepter can toggle between player view and orb view using the scope button.  The Rocket Launcher can toggle between player view and rocket view using the scope button.  The Shotgun can activate a Flashlight using the scope button.  

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12 minutes ago, Arlong said:

STFU because halo has done it since day one. This isn’t halo copying sprint and Advanced movement, its a mechanic that is natural, especially on FPS games. Every FPS game has some similarities and that’s not a bad thing in any way.

I... wasn't talking to you. I was referring to Ice's post quoting it and not making a single point except bolding that other FPS games do it.

Good talk dude. Calm your attitude.

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36 minutes ago, JordanB said:

I... wasn't talking to you. I was referring to Ice's post quoting it and not making a single point except bolding that other FPS games do it.

Good talk dude. Calm your attitude.

I am calm, but it doesn’t escape the fact some responses are annoying and. Also you called me out for being against those disagreeing with me, when that’s not true, but I will defend what I say 😒 is that a crime? Oh apparently it is because I’m not super polite about it.

37 minutes ago, Boyo said:

To be clear, I don’t want scopes removed.  I just think that no zoom mechanic at all would be better than ADS on all weapons.  In fact, I would expand upon changing firemodes through scoping, like the Light Rifle does, as a trait for multiple Promethean weapons.  Also, the Plasma Rifle would make recent enemy footprints visible with the scope button.  A different kind of vision enhancer.  The Scepter can toggle between player view and orb view using the scope button.  The Rocket Launcher can toggle between player view and rocket view using the scope button.  The Shotgun can activate a Flashlight using the scope button.  

You could of been more specific then.  Because removing scopes period is not ok to me.

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17 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I am calm, but it doesn’t escape the fact some responses are annoying and. Also you called me out for being against those disagreeing with me, when that’s not true, but I will defend what I say 😒 is that a crime? Oh apparently it is because I’m not super polite about it.

Defend your points till global warming takes over if you want. There's just no point to telling someone to shut up, fuck off, or insult. It's very discouraging to engage discussion with someone when you're just going to be insulted like we're in high school. If it's your opinion or even if someone is factually wrong, just prove them with facts that they are wrong to make your point. No reason to add StFu LoSeR. 

22 minutes ago, Arlong said:

You could of 

oof

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1 hour ago, JordanB said:

So your argument for:

"It literally tightens your spread by a huge margin. Even within RRR it makes sense to zoom in because it reduces you spread so much. Really, RRR extension is a smaller benefit than getting your weapon spread and recoil cut by 75% just by tapping a button"

Is... Other FPS games do it? Yeah, I forgot copying what all other games do is definitely the best choice for Halo. Because yanno, why even have different FPS games then if they're all supposed to act the same way.

Are you talking to me or Ice lol.

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28 minutes ago, Basu said:

Are you talking to me or Ice lol.

Ice. I tried to quote her post but this site doesn't let me quote a quote (or I at least can't figure out how)

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2 hours ago, Arlong said:

The fact is you can’t bring up a shooter that doesn’t have em. So you can shut up right now. 

Don't confuse me not having the energy to deal with your bullshit being the same as me not having a counter-argument.  To give you a little taste:

1.  Minecraft isn't any less of a blatant multiplayer game just because you say it isn't.  That's not how "facts" work. It has a giant multiplayer community, it has multiplayer features, I would wager hard money far more people play in servers than on their own, it's clearly a fucking multiplayer game by any definition (as if that's even relevant to the initial discussion anyways?).  And pointing to unofficial community server owners gouging their players and pocketing the money as an example of microtransactions in the context of those used to fund future development is a complete non-sequitur.  

2.  Quake *1* doesn't have scoped weapons. Nor do the original DooM games. I'm sure I could dig for numerous other examples but that's already enough to disprove your point.  Inb4 mental gymnastics to explain how it "doesn't count" like you've done so far.

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8 minutes ago, Ramirez77 said:

Quake *1*

 

9 minutes ago, Ramirez77 said:

original DooM

 

tenor.gif?itemid=9192598

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TIL: Semantics matter more than substance or reality.

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3 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

Don't confuse me not having the energy to deal with your bullshit being the same as me not having a counter-argument.  To give you a little taste:

1.  Minecraft isn't any less of a blatant multiplayer game just because you say it isn't.  That's not how "facts" work. It has a giant multiplayer community, it has multiplayer features, I would wager hard money far more people play in servers than on their own, it's clearly a fucking multiplayer game by any definition (as if that's even relevant to the initial discussion anyways?).  And pointing to unofficial community server owners gouging their players and pocketing the money as an example of microtransactions in the context of those used to fund future development is a complete non-sequitur.  

2.  Quake *1* doesn't have scoped weapons. Nor do the original DooM games. I'm sure I could dig for numerous other examples but that's already enough to disprove your point.  Inb4 mental gymnastics to explain how it "doesn't count" like you've done so far.

Do yo want to be proven wrong on that quake comment or what? 

 

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3 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

Don't confuse me not having the energy to deal with your bullshit being the same as me not having a counter-argument.  To give you a little taste:

1.  Minecraft isn't any less of a blatant multiplayer game just because you say it isn't.  That's not how "facts" work. It has a giant multiplayer community, it has multiplayer features, I would wager hard money far more people play in servers than on their own, it's clearly a fucking multiplayer game by any definition (as if that's even relevant to the initial discussion anyways?).  And pointing to unofficial community server owners gouging their players and pocketing the money as an example of microtransactions in the context of those used to fund future development is a complete non-sequitur.  

2.  Quake *1* doesn't have scoped weapons. Nor do the original DooM games. I'm sure I could dig for numerous other examples but that's already enough to disprove your point.  Inb4 mental gymnastics to explain how it "doesn't count" like you've done so far.

Minecraft isn’t a MP shooter or mmo like wow, so yes it doesn’t count. It’s not even recognized as a MP game. I don’t claim it’s a fact but I can give some good points on why it’s not completely false.

any game can have MP but I wouldn’t recognize them as a highly known MP game.

and using a flash game like those hardly counts. 

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

Do yo want to be proven wrong on that quake comment or what? 

 

This is quake champions bro, wrong game.  And only 1 weapon with zoom hardly counts as a hard rebuttal.  This is a much better example of the fact that you don't need sprint to make a game play fast or feel fast.  

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8 hours ago, Arlong said:

Actually quake has guns with scopes, quake is also about constantly jumping and moving rather than positional skill. 

And that’s a console shooter for you, it provides more AA when scoped, it extends the RRR, the game is programmed to give more AA at that point. The point of scoped weaponry is to give extra range on a weapon, it makes it so you can sit at that position and be More accurate. Unless you make it so the RRR is as big as it is SCOPED, then we’re done here. 

1: what does jumping and moving have to do with having scopes

2: how is jumping and moving not considered positional skill

3: since when has Halo not been about jumping and moving

4: there has been about 20 years of Quake and Doom games without scoping, it was only standardized in the last iterations because they didn't know what to do with the LT button on the controller. The lead designer on those games from CA sat right behind me for a year he told me this himself. And those zooms are basically useless.

5: you're describing to me the functionality of a zoom and I'm well aware of what it does, I'm telling you that the LEAST offensive version of a zoom in Halo is still a stacked advantage. It means the first player to land a shot and descope the other player will have a much easier time continuing to land shots. It's a button that's there to make your job easier and nothing else. I can recognize that and still be fine with its existence in Halo yet still recognize that the sandbox would probably perform tighter if it weren't there. 

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The range at which a player is strong with his spawning weapon is a crucial element in Halo that definitely needs to be weighed before we go doing something like removing zoom from it. 4v4 Halo has always been an "if you see it, shoot it" game, where the player has basically been able to competently engage from almost literally any distance with the weapon that's in his hands off spawn. If that goes away, it could have a significant effect on gameplay, for better or for worse. 

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