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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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UGC is running another Halo CE side event in Atlantic City, and I'll be casting it again, this time with Scrubtwista. Our tournament will be on Saturday, Sep 7th.  I don't have confirmation on a stream link yet, but I believe it's www.twitch.tv/ugc_delta     Any support from you guys is greatly appreciated. Hopefully I'll see some familiar names in the chat, or better yet, get to meet some of you in person.

If anyone wants to come compete, here's the team pass link:  www.ugcstore.gg

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When does this flight end? I thought it was supposed to stop several hours ago but I can still get on.

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6 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Imagine using a beta, long since patched over as proof to a point. Imagine thinking that was the point. Imagine thinking even if it was the point, this gif proves it. When it doesn't. 

Yeah I apologize for not dropping everything I'm doing, running to my Xbox and starting up H5, do another SMG wall spray test, clip it and edit it and create a new gif. That would totally be worth the effort and  make so much sense especially given that Holmes lies statements were about the beta and not the post-rebalance sandbox.

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The point isn't on the fact you have an aim assist range increase (And in the beta's case, major spread decrease), the fucking point is on how the gun wasn't useless out of scope and penalizing you for hipfiring. I'll clarify and elaborate. The SMG's issue in the beta ironically enough wasn't the fact it had a laser-ADS mechanic that outright outclassed its unscoped ability to dish out damage and made you rely on said ADS mechanic. The issue was it being a fucking hose in CQC, on top of its laser ADS. Much like the AR. Because, surprise, it was effective, way too much so, in and out of scope, because the scope was circumstantial based on the range you actually needed to fight in with the gun. That is literally THE point, here. The entire thing I've been arguing. And all that Halo 5's CD said on it. Nothing else. I don't care if you're arguing for the spread decrease, that doesn't actually change the point or disprove it. I could not know the spread decrease ever existed and it wouldn't change what's being argued. 
 

Cool, you're shifting the goalpoasts again. Now apparently we can't talk about penalties unless the gun is completely useless out of scope, okay. At this point believe whatever you want to the mental gymnastics here are too much for me to handle.

Fact: Holmes said there's no hipfire penalty. Fact: 343 added more "bonuses to scoping" aka hipfire penalties to automatic weapons by adding not just RRR benefits but also spread and recoil reduction. So he either lied or had no idea what he was talking about.

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With that said, you're outright deluding yourself if you think this is anywhere near CoD/BF/TF. Three game franchises with weapons notoriously and obviously based around ADS gameplay, with hipfire being outright penalized. You literally can't play a game of CoD like Halo, only using your ADS when you just can't get red reticle on your target, while hipfiring the rest. Because every gun in that game has actual, detrimental hipfire penalties that enforce the use of ADS. As do the other two franchises. Halo 5 doesn't enforce ADS, and I shouldn't have to tell you why. Put it together. You're lying to yourself if you think or try to promote the idea they're anything alike. No idea what you're on about.

Not saying it's exactly like CoD and never did. But the similarities are striking and you are delusional if you think this isn't 100% pandering. There was no logical, gameplay or even lore explanation for adding ADS to Halo. Obviously it's not the exact same thing as CoD, but then again they'd have to redo the entire sandbox with movement bloom, ADS speed penalties for every weapon etc.etc. They were probably too lazy to do that and just lifted the ADS animation plus the spread and recoil benefits. Also funny enough, the laser in advanced warfare was dead accurate in hipfire and with the gung-ho perk you could sprint and shoot at the same time. True advanced mobility right there.

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P.S) Descope exists. In every engagement. Removing those benefits immediately.

Third, every single weapon you listed having received new ADS benefits doesn't gain an accuracy increase because they all fucking track players. That ADS mechanic isn't giving a homing weapon MORE accuracy, it's giving it MORE range. Not the same thing at all.

 

Okay I can agree with this. The Needler & friends' ADS buffs add more range so I don't have a problem with that per se, it's just that they went way above and beyond what is healthy for gameplay especially with the plasma pistol that can now track across the entire map on Bigship. These weapons (and melee weapons for that matter) just shouldn't have scopes at all, but because they added ADS to every gun for the codtards they had to give ADS some kind of stupid bonus to justify it. Ugh.

The Hydra can be considered similar to something like the H4 LR where scoping changes its function. As long as descope exists I don't have a problem with the gun, although it's so fing clunky to use and feels cheap to get kills with / killed by. Should just be an anti-vehicle weapon honestly.

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On a side note, Reach with centered reticle looks awful. Giant gun model blocking half your screen, no thanks 

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1 hour ago, S0UL FLAME said:

On a side note, Reach with centered reticle looks awful. Giant gun model blocking half your screen, no thanks 

Remind a noob what the point of having the reticle an inch and a half lower on the screen achieved? I wasn't around for those conversations.

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8 hours ago, Boyo said:

Halo would be better off removing scoping entirely than continuing down the Aim Down Sights path.  

 

ADS is detrimental to base player traits because it means that the weapon is not at full effectiveness in its default state and a delay is necessary to reach full effectiveness.  

ADS is detrimental to sandbox design because all weapons need to have a good mode and a bad mode instead of one perfect mode.   

ADS is detrimental to map design because when every weapon has a second mode that zooms in, the effective range of the sandbox as a whole goes up.  This means that maps become elongated, changing the balance of gun, grenade, and melee to become even more in favor of the strongest prong of the golden trident: gun.  Additionally, moving the Scope button to the Left Trigger puts even more emphasis on gun.

A key element of Halo’s sandbox design is having viable, interesting, scopeless weapons.  Unlike how Hipfire is inferior to ADS, scoped weapons need to fire just as accurately while in their default state, unscoped.  This allows all weapons, with and without scopes, to compete in their unscoped states (which should constitute a significant portion of overall gameplay).

Together, Sprint and Aim Down Sights present the game’s most basic choice to the player: move at full speed or fire with full effectiveness, Sprint or ADS, one or the other, never both.  Choosing between full range of movement or full attack effectiveness shouldn’t be a choice players need to make in Halo.

ADS affects sandbox design like Sprint affects map design.  You’re designing around two different extremes instead of one constant value.  This is the wrong direction for Halo.  Nothing about a weapon’s design should be intentionally inferior and that is exactly what Hipfire is in an ADS system.

 

That’s why I don’t like ADS in Halo.

I’m going to dislike this simply because you believe scoping needs to go. 

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7 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I’m going to dislike this simply because you believe scoping needs to go. 

That’s what you took away from that?  Can we get an ice cream cone on forehead reaction?

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

That’s what you took away from that?

No I read the other parts and can agree they change things, but you’re pretending you know for a fact that these changes would be good for halo. Halos always had scoping since halo 1, the ads affecting the sandbox isn’t as detrimental or bad like sprint. You’re also not takin halos entire game into account but only ONE mode 4v4. You didn’t think of all the other shit the game balances around.

You keep pretending ADS in halo is like call of duty or other shooters but evidence through the past 18 years would say otherwise. 

I’m not completely against your views, but with no test, and no evidence to prove what you say basically be better, or “constant” it’s kinda fishy. 

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You also shouldn’t add one thing like “scoping needs to go” it ruins what you’re trying to say, it’s like a guy explaining to people why you shouldn’t eat chocolate, and lets say he makes excellent points, but he started his conversation with “I hate chocolate” it honestly makes people not want to listen to you at that point. Or explain why abortion is bad, but start off your conversation saying “god says it’s a sin” no one wants to listen to you anymore.  

In fact it makes you’re entire topic seem null and void, because now it makes me wonder if you actually scare about the scientific points you’re making. 

You want scoping gone, but can’t think why that’s a bad thing. 

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

::icecream::

You deserve one for thinking scoping needs to go in halo. 

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2 hours ago, L377UC3 said:

Remind a noob what the point of having the reticle an inch and a half lower on the screen achieved? I wasn't around for those conversations.

Don't know Bungie's original reason, but for me it helps that there's more you can see since the gun is lower. Prolly their solution for the low FOV

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Anyone else encountering a problem where matchmaking on MCC is literally unplayable?  In the middle of my games I go black screen, the game selects a new host, and then it kicks me back out to the main menu.  This has been happening to me for months now.  I have tried using a different console, tried uninstalling & reinstalling MCC, tried wired & wireless network connection; I have literally moved states and this issue still persists.  The ports of CE/H2/H3 are still trash, but now I can't even play ranked or social because of quit bans due to losses in host connection during every single match...

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28 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

Anyone else encountering a problem where matchmaking on MCC is literally unplayable?  In the middle of my games I go black screen, the game selects a new host, and then it kicks me back out to the main menu.  This has been happening to me for months now.  I have tried using a different console, tried uninstalling & reinstalling MCC, tried wired & wireless network connection; I have literally moved states and this issue still persists.  The ports of CE/H2/H3 are still trash, but now I can't even play ranked or social because of quit bans due to losses in host connection during every single match...

What’s your NAT type?

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3 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

You know things are bad when Boyo starts getting testy.

He’s getting testy because his ideas are stupid as hell! Removing scope from halo, pfttt NEVER! 

Nay, it was heresy! 

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I actually agree with Boyo, I think Halo would be better off without a scope on anything except the sniper having a single zoom 4x or something.

 

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6 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

On a side note, Reach with centered reticle looks awful. Giant gun model blocking half your screen, no thanks 

The fuck do you mean "no thanks"? That doesn't have anything to do with you console boy.

Anyway let's just hope 343 takes a note from ED and has detailed viewmodel options + a centered crosshair toggle.

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6 hours ago, L377UC3 said:

Remind a noob what the point of having the reticle an inch and a half lower on the screen achieved? I wasn't around for those conversations.

1: It was originally done because people weren't comfortable with dual stick console shooters at the time and spent a lot of time looking at the ground while they walked. Lowered reticle makes it so when you're shooting someone level, you keep greater visibility of the top half of your screen. Half of it isn't wasted on the floor in front of you. 

2: Helps prevents head glitching since you have to poke up higher before you can shoot.

 

3: Allows the guns to take up less of the screen and sit at a more natural angle, instead of upwards center facing or just really high.

 

Honestly not the worst idea beyond just the initial weirdness of the reticle not being in the middle. 

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19 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

I actually agree with Boyo, I think Halo would be better off without a scope on anything except the sniper having a single zoom 4x or something.

 

But whyyyy, is this simply to force people to move to uncomfortable positions? Like literally can’t even show me a game without a scope. There’s no reason it doesn’t belong! 

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7 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Like literally can’t even show me a game without a scope

You'd think you would know better than to make these absolute claims by now...

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27 minutes ago, Arlong said:

But whyyyy, is this simply to force people to move to uncomfortable positions? Like literally can’t even show me a game without a scope. There’s no reason it doesn’t belong! 

Quake.

 

And to be honest there's no reason TO have a scope. If your intent is that a weapon is reasonable at X range give or take, why muddy the waters with a zoom. BEST case scenario is that it's literally just a screen magnification and nothing else, but then you run into descoping battles where the first player to shoot now has a stacked advantage over the other player by continuing to descope (this is especially damaging with semi-auto utility weapons since the BR had some spray capability when descoped). But Halo isn't JUST a magnification, it literally extends the RRR and aim assist functions of a gun. Think about that for a second. 

You have a button on your controller that when pressed does essentially nothing but give you more auto aim. That is its purpose. If you were to ask me as a designer you might as well make LT / RS a damage boost at that point, its principally not far off. 

 

All that being said I would never remove zoom from Halo because I know how ingrained it is in the formula, just like I wouldn't remove recharging shields even though I think non recharging health is a better designed alternative - I recognize that it's characteristic to the franchise despise what I think are design shortcomings. But you should be capable of recognizing these things when the conversation comes up instead of reflecting like you have been.

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56 minutes ago, HeX Reapers said:

The fuck do you mean "no thanks"? That doesn't have anything to do with you console boy.

When I want to watch v7 streams on PC, I don't want it ruined by a distracting massive rifle

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13 hours ago, Basu said:

Yeah I apologize for not dropping everything I'm doing, running to my Xbox and starting up H5, do another SMG wall spray test, clip it and edit it and create a new gif. That would totally be worth the effort and  make so much sense especially given that Holmes lies statements were about the beta and not the post-rebalance sandbox.

Cool, you're shifting the goalpoasts again. Now apparently we can't talk about penalties unless the gun is completely useless out of scope, okay. At this point believe whatever you want to the mental gymnastics here are too much for me to handle.

Fact: Holmes said there's no hipfire penalty. Fact: 343 added more "bonuses to scoping" aka hipfire penalties to automatic weapons by adding not just RRR benefits but also spread and recoil reduction. So he either lied or had no idea what he was talking about.

Not saying it's exactly like CoD and never did. But the similarities are striking and you are delusional if you think this isn't 100% pandering. There was no logical, gameplay or even lore explanation for adding ADS to Halo. Obviously it's not the exact same thing as CoD, but then again they'd have to redo the entire sandbox with movement bloom, ADS speed penalties for every weapon etc.etc. They were probably too lazy to do that and just lifted the ADS animation plus the spread and recoil benefits. Also funny enough, the laser in advanced warfare was dead accurate in hipfire and with the gung-ho perk you could sprint and shoot at the same time. True advanced mobility right there.

Okay I can agree with this. The Needler & friends' ADS buffs add more range so I don't have a problem with that per se, it's just that they went way above and beyond what is healthy for gameplay especially with the plasma pistol that can now track across the entire map on Bigship. These weapons (and melee weapons for that matter) just shouldn't have scopes at all, but because they added ADS to every gun for the codtards they had to give ADS some kind of stupid bonus to justify it. Ugh.

The Hydra can be considered similar to something like the H4 LR where scoping changes its function. As long as descope exists I don't have a problem with the gun, although it's so fing clunky to use and feels cheap to get kills with / killed by. Should just be an anti-vehicle weapon honestly.

The SMG is worth the effort if you're gonna be at least relevant in trying to prove your point. It'd have been funnier if it was the more relevant, current-meta SMG. 

And I didn't shift any posts. It's you who was hinging on this arbitrary bonus thing when the point is on the fact the gun is straight up functional out of scope in its designated range.

Additionally, a bonus to scoping isn't the same as a hipfire penalty. You can claim it's clever writing or w/e the fuck you wanna claim, but a bonus to scoping doesn't mean the gun out of scope is inherently weak. Whereas a hipfire penalty inherently denotes a punishment to hipfire, out of scope by wording and definition. Two different things. Not gonna be snarky, but break down the sentences.

Bonus to scoping - Implies a bonus on top of hipfiring. Not inherently labeling hipfire in a negative fashion. Adding onto something. You're not being told you're rewarded exclusively for scoping in, but that bonuses exist when you do, in this context, under specific circumstances, mostly range. The thing about this is it's also vague. The LR can have the term "bonus to scoping" mean two things. Its range increase, OR its damage increase. But the LR in spite of its bonuses doesn't lose its efficiency or ability to kill out of scope as we see and know. It's just meant for a different engagement. You won't be ADS threeing people in CQC, even though the fire-mode melts. Much like you won't hipfire across the map out of RRR. The range is just a bonus when you need it. With that said, please just hold the ADS button down constantly like it IS CoD, it'd make my job easier than it already is. 

Hipfire penalty - Implies there's a downside, potentially severe to hipfire, you're being punished in some way by definition. Easy example is any sniper in CoD. Most if not all of them have insane hipfire penalties. And enforce a quickscope/scoped in gameplay style. Because you outright can't perform well, if AT ALL just hipfiring. You're punished for it by spread and a lack of any range, with your ADS mechanic being the thing actually making the gun work. It relies on, and is dependent on it, it doesn't treat it as a side-mode of fire. The contrast between this and Halo is that Halo isn't forcing you to ADS, or forcing you to hipfire. It's all dependent on circumstance. 

P.S) Recoil reduction was caused by crouching, not ADS. Solid. Movement bloom also doesn't exist. Nor does an ADS speed penalty, barring your sensitivity slowing, which also isn't exclusive to this game. And plz plxy pl0x don't say sprint is that, because sprint stops you from doing anything gun-wise and obviously isn't exclusively tied to ADS for what it affects.

Four, holy fuck I can't believe I have to quote this. Context and all.

On 8/26/2019 at 5:16 AM, Basu said:

It literally tightens your spread by a huge margin. Even within RRR it makes sense to zoom in because it reduces you spread so much. Really, RRR extension is a smaller benefit than getting your weapon spread and recoil cut by 75% just by tapping a button. This functions exactly like CoD, Battlefield, Titanfall and all the other modern military FPS.  How is this not forcing me to use the scope in order to not be at a massive disadvantage? I'd love to see an AR or SMG  1v1 past CQC range with one dude scoping in and the other hipfiring. (inb4 "youre a dumbass for using the smg at that range").

 

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