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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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If I do any damage to an enemy, any damage that was also done to a teammate does not ricochet to me, it hurts my teammate as normal. i.e. if I throw a grenade and it damages both the enemy and a teammate.

If I shoot 1-2 BR/PR/AR (basically anything that doesn’t kill you or take away most of your shield) to a teammate, it acts as normal. It could be accidental, it could be on purpose, but this is such little damage that it shouldn't be different than what we have now. And if you have a teammate that will consistently shoot you once every time you’re in a battle causing you to lose every time, then you just have a shit ass teammate and you aren’t going to win anyway.

If I hurt my teammate without any damage being done to an enemy, and it takes away most/all shield and/or kills them (whether that is an explosive, a Sniper, or multiple BR shots), then the game gives you the “Forgive” option. Click yes, it will stay the same next time. Click no, and any further damage that specific teammate does to you will ricochet back to them. This could be something that happens after the 1st occurrence or 2nd, maybe it depends whether or not you actually died, or it could be something that is fixed no matter what.

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41 minutes ago, JordanB said:

If I do any damage to an enemy, any damage that was also done to a teammate does not ricochet to me, it hurts my teammate as normal. i.e. if I throw a grenade and it damages both the enemy and a teammate.

If I shoot 1-2 BR/PR/AR (basically anything that doesn’t kill you or take away most of your shield) to a teammate, it acts as normal. It could be accidental, it could be on purpose, but this is such little damage that it shouldn't be different than what we have now. And if you have a teammate that will consistently shoot you once every time you’re in a battle causing you to lose every time, then you just have a shit ass teammate and you aren’t going to win anyway.

If I hurt my teammate without any damage being done to an enemy, and it takes away most/all shield and/or kills them (whether that is an explosive, a Sniper, or multiple BR shots), then the game gives you the “Forgive” option. Click yes, it will stay the same next time. Click no, and any further damage that specific teammate does to you will ricochet back to them. This could be something that happens after the 1st occurrence or 2nd, maybe it depends whether or not you actually died, or it could be something that is fixed no matter what.

I would fix it to a certain amount of damage.  1 kill worth of FF damage gives the "Forgive" option. Ricochet activates if they don't forgive the player or if they take no action when prompted.

Players will grief by killing themselves repeatedly as well, so if after the first offense they do another 1 kill worth of FF damage even though it is ricocheting back to themselves, they get straight up kicked from the game. Same if they suicide directly.

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3 hours ago, TeeJaY said:

You're decribing things that good players don't do. Why would you nade your teammates in the hill instead of help teamshoot like a normal person? 

1. shut up,  because good players do that literally all the time, it happens in tournaments basically every game. 2. A grenade is a safe option and I might not hit my teammate. Depending how closed the space is, it can work out. 

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2 hours ago, L377UC3 said:

~~~~

 

~~~~

Griefing solved.

 

I'm talking ranked, lol. It could be in social too, would help too, but ranked definitely needs it after some games I've had.

58 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

I would fix it to a certain amount of damage.  1 kill worth of FF damage gives the "Forgive" option. Ricochet activates if they don't forgive the player or if they take no action when prompted.

Players will grief by killing themselves repeatedly as well, so if after the first offense they do another 1 kill worth of FF damage even though it is ricocheting back to themselves, they get straight up kicked from the game. Same if they suicide directly.

This also leads back to its own point. Much of this discussion has been about providing the "option" for stuff like this. Like a "forgive" option. Or doing it after damage thresholds. Why is it even debated as an option, or an option taking place over time. Why are we seemingly trying so hard to not punish offenders immediately, and likewise, why are we just okay with having FF as is. Of course, that last point isn't to you, specifically, but Hard Way won't respond, so, lol. Maybe you have answers. Or maybe someone else will see it and answer themselves.

Back to the point, if I shoot my teammate in the back of the head, accidental, or not, why in any world should we be jumping through hoops to actually do something about it. Just make me take the damage, and we can move on, and someone else won't be cocked on for my errors. This is mostly what's getting me. The options argument is more about giving a cushion for people who're dishing out friendly damage over actually helping those affected by friendly damage. 

With that, if there's a damage threshold of 125, about that of the perfect kill in present games, that's still five bullets I have that I can shoot my teammates with, be it accidental, or w/e. And it's a nade and a half's worth of damage, assuming I don't shoot. So with this setup, actually nuking someone outright with a nade wouldn't be punished for at all, straight up. So the solution doesn't actually fix the problem until the second time around. Meaning, it may as well be fundamentally useless in actually eliminating it, because it can still happen. It's a super bandaid fix. This doesn't account for times where people will nuke you after you engage or win a fight while damaged, so they don't deal full damage, but will still one shot you. So you could potentially only deal 25 points of friendly damage per "betrayal", and have that take about five kills to register to this option to the offender. And that is beyond shit, lmao.

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You could fire indiscriminately past a teammate in a gun fight, dealing damage to both your teammate and his enemy, giving your teammate an advantage because he is immune to your bullets but the enemy is not.  That’s not skill.

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

1. shut up,  because good players do that literally all the time, it happens in tournaments basically every game. 2. A grenade is a safe option and I might not hit my teammate. Depending how closed the space is, it can work out. 

1. Lies

2. Good to know you nade your teammates

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36 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

 I'm talking ranked, lol. It could be in social too, would help too, but ranked definitely needs it after some games I've had.

That's not my experience at all, but alright.

don't like the idea of removing Friendly Fire at the magnitude described, and ricochet would still have obvious effects on strategies and positioning and shit like that. I know in the past you've articulated some contentious things about power weapons and snowballing. The way I see it, trading a possible team kill for a suicide from a haphazard explosive is tantamount to a *buff* on Rockets and shit like it from a strategic point of view.

If I can speculate: especially in ranked objective games, I'm picturing coordinated strats built around positioning an ally near the flag or hill or whatever the fuck and purposefully shooting at him to wipe the shit out of any motherfucker nearby and yourself with a net positive affect on your score - your teammates is the only thing alive near obj - and with a negligible affect on map control because your team knows where you dropped rockets and have a plan for getting them back. Suddenly a huge drawback of some of the most important pickups in the game have been effectively removed if teammates are talking to each other. We've traded griefing for a brand new way to snowball at high levels.

You might not mind these sorts of shenanigans, but from what I've read from you since I've come back, it doesn't seem like you'd appreciate them.

Everyone already gets punished for a griefer in ranked, just like they get punished for any shitty teammate.

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7 minutes ago, L377UC3 said:

That's not my experience at all, but alright.

Everyone already gets punished for a griefer in ranked, just like they get punished for any shitty teammate.

MCC works fine for me, lol. Have had three games today where I've had this happen today. Including one just now. So, in my recent experience, it's made the game AIDS to play. Because some kid gets pissy for no reason and is able to just kill me or get me killed, over and over.

However, this last point also encapsulates my point. We're already punished as a squad for one dude being a dumbass. But stop punishing me for no reason outside of it. Let the griefer kill themselves. Stop enabling them from actually hampering me, and damaging me. As I also said earlier, I'd rather be collapsed on after my teammates do something stupid and die than being the first one down when my teammate nukes me and leaves me incapped or dead. Nothing figuratively pisses me off more than doing nothing and being able to deal no damage to even assist because of my own team.

18 minutes ago, Boyo said:

You could fire indiscriminately past a teammate in a gun fight, dealing damage to both your teammate and his enemy, giving your teammate an advantage because he is immune to your bullets but the enemy is not.  That’s not skill.

It's a 2v1 in a game where you already can't do much as an individual, so it really isn't rocking my point. The concept of that fight already isn't based on skill, it's based on circumstance, lol. Friendly fire isn't changing that outcome, barring some obvious bullshitery/luck.

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29 minutes ago, Boyo said:

You could fire indiscriminately past a teammate in a gun fight, dealing damage to both your teammate and his enemy, giving your teammate an advantage because he is immune to your bullets but the enemy is not.  That’s not skill.

Are you saying I, using a BR, could shoot both my teammate and the enemy in one shot? 

If so, the odds of that happening is as close to 0 as you can get, as lining up that shot is extremely unlikely, not to mention do BR shots even go through players to hit two at once? We shouldn't decide a rule based on an exception that might not even occur once a game. 

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Sniper shots go through players.  Should you be able to bodyshot an enemy through your teammate and have him clean up the one shot, while you are at no risk behind him?

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I think ranked should be just as punishing as social. If you can't chuck nades without hitting team mates, you should have some ricochet damage to know what it's like to needlessly take hits.

Think about how absolutely amazing it would be to have a team mate fill up their FF quota, then try and kill you for the sniper and instead kill themselves.

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31 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Sniper shots go through players.  Should you be able to bodyshot an enemy through your teammate and have him clean up the one shot, while you are at no risk behind him?

Sure it sounds stupid. I'm not even saying that should or shouldn't happen. But go ahead and record yourself playing a ranked game with a Sniper and do as you describe. It's not practical. That's an extreme exception. Don't make rules for exceptions that won't even happen in 99% of matches. 

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2 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I'm talking ranked, lol. It could be in social too, would help too, but ranked definitely needs it after some games I've had.

This also leads back to its own point. Much of this discussion has been about providing the "option" for stuff like this. Like a "forgive" option. Or doing it after damage thresholds. Why is it even debated as an option, or an option taking place over time. Why are we seemingly trying so hard to not punish offenders immediately, and likewise, why are we just okay with having FF as is. Of course, that last point isn't to you, specifically, but Hard Way won't respond, so, lol. Maybe you have answers. Or maybe someone else will see it and answer themselves.

Back to the point, if I shoot my teammate in the back of the head, accidental, or not, why in any world should we be jumping through hoops to actually do something about it. Just make me take the damage, and we can move on, and someone else won't be cocked on for my errors. This is mostly what's getting me. The options argument is more about giving a cushion for people who're dishing out friendly damage over actually helping those affected by friendly damage. 

With that, if there's a damage threshold of 125, about that of the perfect kill in present games, that's still five bullets I have that I can shoot my teammates with, be it accidental, or w/e. And it's a nade and a half's worth of damage, assuming I don't shoot. So with this setup, actually nuking someone outright with a nade wouldn't be punished for at all, straight up. So the solution doesn't actually fix the problem until the second time around. Meaning, it may as well be fundamentally useless in actually eliminating it, because it can still happen. It's a super bandaid fix. This doesn't account for times where people will nuke you after you engage or win a fight while damaged, so they don't deal full damage, but will still one shot you. So you could potentially only deal 25 points of friendly damage per "betrayal", and have that take about five kills to register to this option to the offender. And that is beyond shit, lmao.

The problem is that context should matter.  Positioning should matter. Trigger discipline should matter. Grenade placement should matter.  If you take away friendly fire, you weaken the advantage of all of those.  Sure, you gain not getting duked on every once in a while by your own teammate but you lose the impact that those quick decisions in those tight windows have on the outcome of the match.  A player rocketing his teammate that is near an objective and killing the opponent that teammate was fighting as well as himself via ricochet halfway across the map while leaving his teammate unscathed results in a far different situation than that player rocketing and killing both his own teammate and the enemy with nobody now near the objective.  And yes, i understand that most of these examples are fairly rare.  But there are a lot of examples of situations where something like this could come into play.  I think everybody has given a different one at this point and we're not even trying very hard to come up with them. A long list of things that don't happen too often means that you will be experiencing some of those situations most games and they will affect the outcome of the match.

I think some of this disagreement isn't anything that can be logically overcome no matter how compelling the argument on either side because it comes down to personal philosophy.  Do you value the individual outcome or the team outcome more? The individual experience or the team experience? Individual skill or team skill?  In ranked play, I value the team in all of those categories much more highly than the individual. Therefore, I want the decisions of a player to play out to their logical conclusions to raise or lower the entire team, not be nullified or reversed by some arbitrary mechanic.

That (finally) leads me to why i think having an option is the right way to go.

1)  Sometimes players take calculated risks that are good plays when they work out but sometimes don't.  They're not bad or malicious plays, but trying to make the most of a tight situation.  Rocketing behind the OS player in CQC with a teammate for example. Calculate the damage fallout wrong and you kill your teammate. Get it right and its a good play. Grenading past a retreating teammate with no shields is similar.  "Thread the needle" type plays.

2) Accident happen that are the fault of the person that died, not the killer.  An embarrassing example from myself. Buddy has a sniper behind me outside on Eden (Or Empire maybe now that im rereading this?? I haven't played Halo 5 in ages. The bigger, bluer one). I know where he is. He announces he watching the opposite ramp. Opponent comes through the door, i strafe to the right while shooting. I get blained in the back of the head by my own guy.  Sure he was behind me, but it was totally my fault.  I would 100% click the "Forgive" option on that one.  He should not die because I strafed into where i knew sniper fire would be coming from.

3) Ideally, i would just leave FF in ranked as it is, however I understand that some people out there are just straight up shitbags that want to troll people.  For the good of matchmaking itself I certainly see the benefit of having some kind of system in place to prevent issues from lasting for any significant amount of game time which is why i like the idea of a damage-threshold ricochet and boot system.

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2 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Because some kid gets pissy for no reason and is able to just kill me or get me killed, over and over.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that sounds like kick functions are shit, which is a problem that can be averted without ricochet imo. In the past I've heard people whishing Halo recorded individual damage outputs. Maybe if a certain, nonlethal amount of damage is dealt to a teammate, the prompt appears to kick their ass and remunerate all damage to the wounded teammate. In cases where the griefer dumps an assload of damage and ends in a betrayal, the remuneration of damage would be replaced by an instant respawn and the asshole would still get booted. That way griefers are fucked with minimal skin off the victim's nose but an accidental teamkill is largely unchanged in any competitive sense.

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4 minutes ago, L377UC3 said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that sounds like kick functions are shit, which is a problem that can be averted without ricochet imo. In the past I've heard people whishing Halo recorded individual damage outputs. Maybe if a certain, nonlethal amount of damage is dealt to a teammate, the prompt appears to kick their ass and remunerate all damage to the wounded teammate. In cases where the griefer dumps an assload of damage and ends in a betrayal, the remuneration of damage would be replaced by an instant respawn and the asshole would still get booted. That way griefers are fucked with minimal skin off the victim's nose but an accidental teamkill is largely unchanged in any competitive sense.

I was thinking about this a bit and it was harder to come up with a solution than I thought. 

I'm not huge on ricochet damage either. What happens if I stick my teammate and he runs into a room, runs into the hill, or has the oddball. I die and he continues scoring points? I'm terrible at placing nades, its never intentional, and my buddies that I usually play with understand that, but I'm going to have my teammate just wreck the enemy that they are standing next to because my nade didn't hurt them? Its just a weird, un-intuitive system. 

I think what would be ideal is if 343i implemented a system to calculate friendly fire and enemy position, but what would you set the parameters as? Its such a hard system to catch them early without being far too strict. It would also leave you in a 3v4 situation in a lot of cases. I would almost rather they be punished after the game, rank goes down with a warning prompt, or like a 3 strikes and your out of this season of ranking. 

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Now this is a debate I can get behind because I like aspects on both sides of this one.

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Are we really getting baited into one of these agonizing conversations again? This is literally the power weapon argument 2.0. It starts with a complaint that isn't real (griefing in ranked) and turns into a gongshow of micro-analyzing every aspect of a tiny part of the game when the actual conclusion is that both ways could work fine so there's no point in changing it.

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I wonder if Ogre 2 bitches as much as some of you Faux Pros do 

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If it were me I wouldn't change it. It's not a perfect system but really there is no perfect system. Maybe the best route is using a forgive option but that's assuming the forgive option would always work correctly. One instance that it doesn't and now you're wishing that it was a different system again. 

But at this point there isn't anything else being talked about, it's not like we can actually discuss Reach being in MCC or MCC being on PC considering we're already, what 5 months since it's announcement and we have almost nothing still lol. At least it's something different from the old hitscan vs projectile.

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Besides changing the kick threshold from kills to damage and counting "killing a weakened teammate" as a betrayal I wouldn't change anything. Maybe change to ricochet after doing 100% teammate damage could work but honestly that's kinda out there and I definitely wouldn't change it in ranked because of the cheese potential with objectives. 

Also count betraying someone with a power weapon and objective carriers count more than  a "normal" teamkill. 

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guys 343 said mcc is going to have modding. maybe that means we can remove bullet spread and host no bullet spread servers. also something i think would be sick is have a modded pistol that functions exactly like halo ce and we could have pistol starts in addition to normal br starts. in this game type it also plays very similar to halo ce with countdown on power weapons and they are much more powerful. at least im going to try and make a mod like this if no one does

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3 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Are we really getting baited into one of these agonizing conversations again? This is literally the power weapon argument 2.0. It starts with a complaint that isn't real (griefing in ranked) and turns into a gongshow of micro-analyzing every aspect of a tiny part of the game when the actual conclusion is that both ways could work fine so there's no point in changing it.

Except it is real. But nah it's being made up to fit the anti halo agenda. How often do you play ranked btw? Just curious. 

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12 hours ago, Nokt said:

I think what would be ideal is if 343i implemented a system to calculate friendly fire and enemy position, but what would you set the parameters as? Its such a hard system to catch them early without being far too strict. It would also leave you in a 3v4 situation in a lot of cases. I would almost rather they be punished after the game, rank goes down with a warning prompt, or like a 3 strikes and your out of this season of ranking. 

Is it necessary to record enemy position as well? Damage taken by an enemy with any single 'attack' or 'engagement' is already a function of distance and positing so you could probably just pass the ratio of damage done between the enemy and teammate while the game keeps track of what medium the damage comes from (nades, rockets, guns), with some built in 'forgiveness' if an enemy receives any damage in the case of FF but almost instant retribution if that number is 0.

I imagine the damage output of individual explosives would be tracked and calculated as the ratio of aggregate enemy damage vs individual teammate damage (griefing is usually targeted in my experience, it also adjusts the weight of one specific variable more cleanly than aggregate v aggregate) and a certain threshold has to be reached before a prompt appears. If you nuke one teammate but wound two enemies, the algorithm gets that that could have been an okay trade and you just fucked up. If you nuke one teammate as they're just chilling, away from anything, you they get a chance to kick you out of the game and carry on as if nothing ever happened.

For normal FF, I imagine this would be the same but over a time interval, and maybe values from both explosives and FF would be considered when the determining to kick a teammate. These values could probably also stay recorded for the entire game, with previous values added to current FFdamage values adjusted for time elapsed in between. If a player exhibits a pattern of hitting allies, then, they have a much lower threshold for future damage before the prompt appears.

I'm sure this idea is riddled with holes. I literally just woke up and I'm still languishing in my underwear before getting ready for work so I'm not in prime headspace.

49 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Except it is real. But nah it's being made up to fit the anti halo agenda. How often do you play ranked btw? Just curious. 

beast why do you keep griefing ice, she's obvs not into it

 

:kappa:

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