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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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7 minutes ago, Basu said:

People would totes abuse this shit in high level play. 

Almost like that's a problem with nades and not ricochet. And could be fixed with tuning/rebalances/removal. W/e works.

Even at a fundamental level, that's still better than people being able to nuke me when they make a dumb or reckless mistake. Easily.

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Ice here clearly doesn’t remember the halo 4 stick your teammate then walk around the corner technique.

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Play Rumble Pit if you don’t want to worry about teammates screwing you over.

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2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Almost like that's a problem with nades and not ricochet. And could be fixed with tuning/rebalances/removal. W/e works.

Even at a fundamental level, that's still better than people being able to nuke me when they make a dumb or reckless mistake. Easily.

Competitive is about making mistakes. It’s a team game, you don’t deserve to live when I naded you or you walked into my grenade. Your team shouldn’t be chucking grenades when they KNOW you’re right there

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Making teammates immune to bullets but vulnerable to explosives seems like a decent compromise. 

I have zero dog in this race, though. 

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8 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Because an enemy is right next to him and you would rather die yourself so your flag carrier can live.

Can you imagine Hill with where you can’t hurt your teammates with nades?

You're decribing things that good players don't do. Why would you nade your teammates in the hill instead of help teamshoot like a normal person? 

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Just now, TeeJaY said:

You're decribing things that good players don't do. Why would you nade your teammates in the hill instead of help teamshoot like a normal person? 

If good players don’t do it then why are you advocating for something to negate it?  Should the game be designed around the worst players?

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4 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Ice here clearly doesn’t remember the halo 4 stick your teammate then walk around the corner technique.

Imagine assuming I don't remember Halo 4 meta. Imagine making up meta on Halo 4 to argue against my point.

4 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Competitive is about making mistakes. It’s a team game, you don’t deserve to live when I naded you or you walked into my grenade. Your team shouldn’t be chucking grenades when they KNOW you’re right there

So, you're making the dumb play by chucking a nade at me, and acknowledge this, saying you shouldn't throw a nade where your teammates are when they know you're there, BUT I, the person making no actual mistake there, doesn't deserve to live because of it. Perfect logic.

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

If good players don’t do it then why are you advocating for something to negate it?  Should the game be designed around the worst players?

Griefers and trolls obviously. What I'm saying is this: good players very rarely hurt their teammates, so FF hardly ever comes into play at that level. What I'm actually suggesting is the game should be designed around the smart players, not the idiots.

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No.  You’re implementing this mechanic specifically to combat griefers.  Outside of griefing, how would ricochet improve gameplay?

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

No.  You’re implementing this mechanic specifically to combat griefers.  Outside of griefing, how would ricochet improve gameplay?

Look at it this way: a ricochet mechanic would add about as much to the high level meta as friendly fire already does. In other words, not much at all.

Outside of that, ricochet would combat griefers and improve the experience for thousands of players at all sorts of skill levels.

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If a lineman misses a block, the quarterback suffers.  That’s how team games work.  Sometimes your teammates mess up and screw you over.

If we are specifically talking about griefers then improve the booting and reputation systems.  Don’t mess with core gameplay mechanics.

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9 minutes ago, Boyo said:

If a lineman misses a block, the quarterback suffers.  That’s how team games work.  Sometimes your teammates mess up and screw you over.

If we are specifically talking about griefers then improve the booting and reputation systems.  Don’t mess with core gameplay mechanics.

What if this ricochet mechanic only came into play after one betrayal? The victim would be asked if it was intentional or not. If yes, that griefer now has his damage reflected moving forward. If not, it's forgiven and not applied. This is how it works in Siege (and very well, IMO).

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I think it's a good solution in Social, where you are more likely to run into players with poor discretion, and this is a good way to force them to learn it, since they are personally affected by their choices.

However, in ranked, where people tend to know what they're doing and are more likely to play for the win, I think it'd be better to leave the gameplay as is. Yes, it sucks to get naded by a teammate or shot in the back from time to time, but that's the intuitive, logical result for what happened. I think changing it would mess with the purity of the gameplay in a setting where everyone is of similar skill and trying their best to win.

Now, that's not to say that our current system is reaching its potential. It's not. There should be a certain FF damage threshold that triggers a "Forgive?" prompt from the recipient, instead of requiring X amount of betrayals. They both attempt to curb the same behavior, but one is far more effective than the other.

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

So, you're making the dumb play by chucking a nade at me, and acknowledge this, saying you shouldn't throw a nade where your teammates are when they know you're there, BUT I, the person making no actual mistake there, doesn't deserve to live because of it. Perfect logic.

We're talking ranked here.  Nobody has argued against adding ricochet to social.  That argument isn't that you, as an individual, "deserve" what happened or not.  The argument is that the team as a whole does, being the sum of its parts.  If you are not OK with your success being determined by the output of the team as a whole, don't play ranked.  If anything is going to be applied to ranked, it should only be to effect griefers.

43 minutes ago, TeeJaY said:

What if this ricochet mechanic only came into play after one betrayal? The victim would be asked if it was intentional or not. If yes, that griefer now has his damage reflected moving forward. If not, it's forgiven and not applied. This is how it works in Siege (and very well, IMO).

This really sounds like an optimal solution.   prevent griefers from ruining the game, but if you are playing a game where you don't have asshats on your team everybody still needs to be precise and thoughtful with their shots and grenades.

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1 minute ago, Hard Way said:

However, in ranked, where people tend to know what they're doing and are more likely to play for the win, I think it'd be better to leave the gameplay as is. Yes, it sucks to get naded by a teammate or shot in the back from time to time, but that's the intuitive, logical result for what happened. I think changing it would mess with the purity of the gameplay in a setting where everyone is of similar skill and trying their best to win.

Okay, but again, how. How would changing it mess with purity negatively when things like ricochet just shift who gets punished for their shit decisions. As I'll ask, again, why punish the wrong people for other's decisions. And as such, why also enforce things like griefing as a result. And what is the "purity of the gameplay".

6 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

That argument isn't that you, as an individual, "deserve" what happened or not. 

That was literally the point of the post that I quoted, and why I responded how I did. Read it. 

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2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

As I'll ask, again, why punish the wrong people for other's decisions.

Everyone already gets 'punished' in a betrayal situation in Ranked.

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4 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Okay, but again, how. How would changing it mess with purity negatively when things like ricochet just shift who gets punished for their shit decisions. As I'll ask, again, why punish the wrong people for other's decisions. And as such, why also enforce things like griefing as a result. And what is the "purity of the gameplay".

If your whole angle is that you're sick of getting betrayed for power weapons, 1) almost nobody griefs in ranked, and 2) who plays ranked without a party and expects anything good. 

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24 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

That was literally the point of the post that I quoted, and why I responded how I did. Read it. 

It LITERALLY is not.  The quote was given in the context of it being a team game.  ie the team lives or dies as a team. Clearly mentioned bookending the single line you take issue with. Spend less time trying to "win" via semantics.

Quote

Competitive is about making mistakes. It’s a team game, you don’t deserve to live when I naded you or you walked into my grenade. Your team shouldn’t be chucking grenades when they KNOW you’re right there

 

Ricochet is not a zero-sum change.  If I'm trying to score a flag and you are shooting an enemy behind me and you miss and hit me in the face a couple times, you might get injured but you'll probably be fine and no extra damage was done to me.  In competitive, it should be that you unintentionally helped the other team by putting a couple extra shots into me.  Ricochet mitigates the damage that bad plays have in a team game in a meaningful, anti-competitive way. I am in favor of something that effectively curbs griefers given the pitfalls of matchmaking, but having ricochet be the single solution from square one is not it.  I think for social it would be fine.

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35 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Yes, it sucks to get naded by a teammate or shot in the back from time to time, but that's the intuitive, logical result for what happened. I think changing it would mess with the purity of the gameplay 

I was struggling to put this same sentiment into words.

Everything is cause and effect.  In an FPS, the deepest rooted cause and effect is firing a weapon.  Fire, hit.  Hit, damage.  These are the established, intuitive rules.  It’s like gravity.  Rules are necessary so that there can be some knowns in an equation filled largely with unknowns.  I can’t see the benefit in changing such a core element of gameplay, damaging what you shoot, strictly to make griefing more difficult.

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15 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

It LITERALLY is not.  The quote was given in the context of it being a team game.  

The context of a team game, while specifying me as an individual. Either way, it doesn't change the fucking point, SO. The point was on how I deserve the punishment someone else's dumbass plays cause for me. Which I deem to be completely stupid. The team can live or die as a team through other means than being nuked by each other. You know, poor spawn influence, angle holding, etc. For online play, those alone are enough to enforce and punish teams operating poorly. But in said universe, you shouldn't be able to be nuked by your team, at all. I shouldn't be punished for someone else's mistakes directly like that. I would rather be collapsed on because my teammates did something stupid and got themselves killed than be the first to die, not dealing damage, because I get teamnaded and shot at first.

30 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

If your whole angle is that you're sick of getting betrayed for power weapons, 1) almost nobody griefs in ranked, and 2) who plays ranked without a party and expects anything good. 

1.) But it's still a problem that can be fixed. And one that does occur.

2.) Just because you don't have a full party doesn't mean you should expect your experience to be fucking garbage. You should be able to make any experience as good as it can be. Not subpar just because you can full stack, but don't.

My angle isn't just that. I think friendly fire in general is stupid. Not just griefing with it. FF just enables the mentality. Kinda a reason most games tend to remove it bar certain gametypes/tournies.

5 minutes ago, Boyo said:

I can’t see the benefit in changing such a core element of gameplay, damaging what you shoot, strictly to make griefing more difficult.

Well, when what you're shooting or attempting to damage is your fucking teammate, I think the benefit is pretty obvious.

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Halo didn’t get popular by doing what “most games” do.

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16 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Well, when what you're shooting or attempting to damage is your fucking teammate, I think the benefit is pretty obvious.

~~~~

1 hour ago, Apoll0 said:

Nobody has argued against adding ricochet to social.

 

1 hour ago, Hard Way said:

I think it's a good solution in Social, where you are more likely to run into players with poor discretion, and this is a good way to force them to learn it, since they are personally affected by their choices.

~~~~

Griefing solved.

 

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Put the option for a weapon timer HUD widget in Social as well.

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7 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Put the option for a weapon timer HUD widget in Social as well.

Idk how I feel about it being an option. Just have it on if you're going to do it.

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