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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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38 minutes ago, Basu said:

 Thing is you're defending her and her cop-out statements like "I never said that" and using the exact same ad hominems "sideline posts, you're not reading things correctly" etc so yeah it comes off as speaking for her. If you agree with her points that's great and I'd encourage everyone else that does so to also enter the conversation. Sharing opinions and talking for someone else are not the same thing. 

See if IcePrincess could just write things like this things would be much easier. Nothing is left ambiguous and up to interpretation. 

I'm not defending anyone. I'm telling you that the things that were just said by Lemon that you made a remark on were never said. And if you think it was then please quote the paragraph it was mentioned and it can be explained more. Because I have read every post. And the things that she "complained about" were never complained about. 

And she has. We both have literally said this same thing before. But that's not her point. It has nothing to do with her point.  

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Here's a refresher of what Beast and Ice's Halo could look like.

On 9/12/2018 at 11:45 AM, S0UL FLAME said:

Hypothetical Halo w/o contestable items. Incoming wall of text.

 

For this version of Halo to exist, there would need to be changes. The utility weapon would need to be strong, and hard to use. Maps would have to be much more unique in their design to keep players from getting bored of stagnant setups. Grenades, ammo caches, and med-kits (Because recharging health is dumb) would need to be placed in ways that more strongly suggest movement. Skill jumps and strafe would need to be more important. Game Modes would need removal, fixing, or updating.

 

Let's start with the utility.

 

I would personally prefer an updated version of the Evolved Magnum (4 shot kill to the head.) Its aim assist and magnetism would be tweaked. Its sound design would be more in line with CE and Halo 3's. Its look would be similar to Halo Reach's Magnum. m6b___halo_reach_magnum_by_chief_01-d30j

 

This version looks the cleanest and the beefiest out of all the different variants of the gun. Its strength and sound in Reach didn't go well with how wide and strong it looked. maxresdefault.jpg

 

Imagine having that weapon in your hands, with twelve shots in the magazine, and also having it sound like the CE/H3 variants. That's my ideal utility.

 

Slayer would outright no longer exist, but be completely replaced with Strongholds. Holding down three different locations on a map is already a good incentive to move, and collecting grenades, ammo and health would keep players from locking down and camping. Capture the Flag and Assault are already staple gametypes, but what if we also had the one sided versions tweaked as well? In One Flag or One Bomb, one team has six minutes to cap/detonate as many times as they can, and the round restarts with spawns switched. Oddball and King of the Hill wouldn't need to be altered at all. That makes a total of seven modes, each with their own unique playing methods.

 

Imagine this new version of Halo being played on all of the competitive maps in Halo history. People would still move regardless of there being no contestable items, because of the objectives themselves. Positioning and Skill would still be a strong part of the game, but now there is a third category that makes games have even less of a chance of slowing down: Resource Management. Your ammo, health, and grenades will eventually run low, so you'll have to eventually move to grab spoils from dead players and locations where med-kits and grenades respawn. So the cycle of movement will essentially never end because you have to focus on both the objective and your own pool of personal items.

 

This certainly sounds like a much different Halo from what we know today, but you have to remember that the most popular competitive games in the world have their own special method of Positioning, Skill, and Resource Management. Halo as it is now only has two of those things, with Resource Management being replaced with Resource Attainment. You're not worried about ammunition (or health) because you're contesting powerful, easy, items that will unarguably create a scenario where one team has the capacity to collapse on the other. And this is because they obtained something that makes their life easier, not because they made sure they kept their stack full.

 

Halo began with the idea of only having two guns at a time, grenades, melee, and contestable items. But what if it was about having one trusty Magnum, two grenades, and the goal of winning the objective with nothing but your wit and talent?

 

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There still isn't an actual argument living in this discussion. From the beginning, it's been about preference

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Movement abilities could also be managed.  Kills recharge thruster or some such.  Or you gotta pick up a battery like the cod gametype kill confirmed.

Maps could evolve.  On their own or through player interaction, hit a switch or blow something up.  There could even be a pick up that allows the user to modify the map in certain ways.

The Magnum could have different attachments.  Silencer, Flashlight, Extended Mags.  Things that don’t affect damage but give the user certain advantages.  The Magnum could have different ammo types, stun rounds, ricochet rounds, penetration rounds, etc.  Again, nothing that affects damage.

@S0UL FLAME

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Just now, S0UL FLAME said:

No.

Oh go fuck yourself.  I was just throwing out ideas for a one weapon game.

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2 minutes ago, Nokt said:

It seems like all you want is control. You want to be able to control every outcome by sheer skill alone and if your skill isn't enough then you are satisfied that you lost. If you lose the initial battle and people get PU/PW they are rewarded with just that, more control for a certain time anyways.

You lost the battle, therefore not everything is going to be fair anymore. Why should everything be contestable by your team after you lose battles, especially important ones?

Why shouldn't it, is my question. If I lose an initial rush to a power position, and I respawn, in what world past said loss of presence should I be punished harder? Loss of a power position is big, but not insurmountable. But you can't actually outright contest a rocket player on top of that loss in positioning. 

The thing I feel about just PPs too. They're consistent advantages that can remain in your hand for an entire game's length if you're good or coordinated enough. Since you're holding angles and the like. Weirdly enough, power weapons actually hamper your ability to maintain power positions, because something that's one shot like a rocket can just nuke you out of one. Or an OS can tank your bullets and just melee you out. Even if you'd be murdering people for the whole game, being nuked out of power positions by uncontestable stuff is pretty real. So to me it isn't just even being killed and losing the initial rush, it's the real possibility you could lose it after that rush if you regain it because someone got rockets, over dying to a gunfight itself.

Like, yeah, I feel every outcome should boil down to skill. It's why I'm never satisfied when I lose to rockets, or a camo, or a sniper, or OS, etc, lol. Because past "obtaining them" which isn't a skill, I can't do anything more when I encounter them most of the time. Same for losing to someone who'll hide outside of my RRR with a sniper. Or not being able to outright see or lock onto someone with camo. Or having someone just tank my bullets.

But as I said, if I just lose a power position, it's not an insurmountable fight. I can juke players, or bait an angle, or flank, or w/e. I don't worry about being nuked, I worry about positioning myself poorly. I think that should matter more. I shouldn't be afraid of being one shot with no chance to fight back.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

@TheIcePrincess could you please just respond to this? It's just tiring going in circles and having to work with nothing but ambiguous statements. It's not like your opinions are subject to change all the time just lay them out black and white.

Isn't my problem if you can't read. If you're somehow lost while Nokt can engage in a full conversation with me, and two others I know understand every word I say, I think it's a you problem. 

18 minutes ago, Basu said:

See if IcePrincess could just write things like this things would be much easier. Nothing is left ambiguous and up to interpretation. 

Likewise with this. Given I never responded to what I want in a Halo, and never spoke on it, because it's irrelevant. It outright doesn't matter. My point has never hinged on what I wanted in my ideal Halo, either. Just how I think one aspect (advanced movement) worked in current Halo's sandbox. Which is what started this whole debacle. So what I say could be understood regardless of me answering this question.

You're not speaking on my points and moving on to evolve a conversation, you're outright not understanding my points, and then going to something completely unrelated, when it's not gonna help. Stick to square one, then we move up.

2 hours ago, Ethereal Nights said:

Or she was brainwashed by LEAST and her viewpoints are trash as a result.

Yeah, totally can't think for myself. @Shekkles Why does a 1v1 comment I make to Boyo get deleted, but being told I can't think for myself isn't an insta-delete. Purely curious, dude.

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32 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Isn't my problem if you can't read. If you're somehow lost while Nokt can engage in a full conversation with me, and two others I know understand every word I say, I think it's a you problem. 

Likewise with this. Given I never responded to what I want in a Halo, and never spoke on it, because it's irrelevant. It outright doesn't matter. My point has never hinged on what I wanted in my ideal Halo, either. Just how I think one aspect (advanced movement) worked in current Halo's sandbox. Which is what started this whole debacle. So what I say could be understood regardless of me answering this question.

I don't get why you're being so hostile and aggressive about a few simple questions. All @Boyo and I wanted is for you to give more precise answers, but yeah go ahead dodging questions, throwing personal attacks but then turn around and play the victim because evil mods. Literally just being toxic for the sake of it.

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39 minutes ago, Basu said:

I don't get why you're being so hostile and aggressive about a few simple questions. All @Boyo and I wanted is for you to give more precise answers, but yeah go ahead dodging questions, throwing personal attacks but then turn around and play the victim because evil mods. Literally just being toxic for the sake of it.

The key to text, you don't actually know my attitude or mood as I write it. I'm not hostile or aggressive, I'm simply saying you're not reading what I say, and you're applying some attitude to my words outside of it that ultimately means nothing. Didn't attack you, either. Just outright stated you weren't reading. Nowhere did I say you were stupid, dense, etc. It isn't even an implication. And I also know it'd get us nowhere to actually write out "you're a dumbass", over just dismantling arguments, point by point. Of course, we still end up in the place we would've had I just actually insinuated or called you a dumbass. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Of course, as I said too, if you'd just read what I write, we wouldn't be here. If anything, it's more painfully obvious you don't with how this response is. But, again, not my problem. 

The victim thing is funny. Mostly because, if it were my way, I'd be all for letting people hash it out within reasonable limits, and I'd fucking love to. I'm just pissed I wasn't able to in the most basic of ways, but someone can literally tell me I can't think for myself and get away with it. I don't care about the comment and it doesn't offend me, I just wish we lived in a world where I could respond to it full blast without being banned, lol. Alas.

Same for toxicity. Right now, comb my responses, and quote every attack you've think I've made. Prove to me how and where I said things to be mean to people. Or to belittle them, or to be toxic, etc. Guarantee you, you can't. Also guarantee you're just stretching shit, and probably assuming things, or looking too deep into what I say. But seriously. Go nuts. I want you to find them. Implore you to.

And that also pushes us out of any valid discussion, and another point. Toxic or not, my point is still my point. It remains regardless of how I say it. Rather than going "oh, you're toxic", literally make a fool out of me and my point if it's wrong. Ten times better than complaining about how you perceive I say things with no actual substance about why said things are wrong. In short, go back six steps, look at what I've written and argued for, and try and understand it like others have. And then if you want, we can actually discuss it further. And the merits of the point. Again, something Nokt has done in a great manner. Otherwise, this is a waste of time. On that note.

On 7/25/2019 at 8:33 PM, TheIcePrincess said:

On the real there. Good response. I could disagree with you 9 ways to Sunday, and you're still rational, and have a discussion. Nothing personal. Nothing passive aggressive. Just you and I discussing things. It's surprisingly normal. Weird that it's been an outlier.

It's funny that Thursday-era me actually called this happening based on past events, or, rather, acknowledged the one good discussion I had would be the outlier. If Beyond was a book, man.

 

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Can I get a tl;dr?

tl;dr:  bulletpoints 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

The thing I feel about just PPs too. They're consistent advantages that can remain in your hand for an entire game's length if you're good or coordinated enough. Since you're holding angles and the like. Weirdly enough, power weapons actually hamper your ability to maintain power positions, because something that's one shot like a rocket can just nuke you out of one. 

 

What you’re describing is called camping and is generally frowned upon. Weapons on map hampering your ability to maintain power positions is a GOOD thing.

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2 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

What you’re describing is called camping and is generally frowned upon. Weapons on map hampering your ability to maintain power positions is a GOOD thing.

You realize "camping" is the point of Halo, right. Holding power positions. Why is it okay to hamper people's ability to do that if they're good at it with cheese weapons/power ups that make gunskill and positional skill irrelevant?

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2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You realize "camping" is the point of Halo, right. Holding power positions. Why is it okay to hamper people's ability to do that if they're good at it with cheese weapons/power ups that make gunskill and positional skill irrelevant?

To use your lingo... that’s a big fat YIKES.

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1 minute ago, LI Mr X IL said:

To use your lingo... that’s a big fat YIKES.

So winning an engagement and earning map control isn't good. But winning an engagement, earning map control and also getting a one hit kill weapon is great. Makes sense. 

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3 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

What you’re describing is called camping and is generally frowned upon. Weapons on map hampering your ability to maintain power positions is a GOOD thing.

This is literally what power weapons are for, and why they matter. The Rocket Launcher is designed to be strong in order to break setups and to keep players from holding up into the most ideal position all game. And yes, players do that shit, even in objective games. A power position can be problematic or even impossible to break without SOMETHING to force their hands.

Is this a map design issue? Sure. We can try to eliminate these positions, but the reality is even the best laid map designs are going to have positions superior to others. A well placed Rocket Laucher or power up can make a huge difference in how a map plays out, and can be just as integral to the overall map design as the power positions themselves.

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21 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

To use your lingo... that’s a big fat YIKES.

Depthful. 

16 minutes ago, The Tyco said:

This is literally what power weapons are for, and why they matter. The Rocket Launcher is designed to be strong in order to break setups and to keep players from holding up into the most ideal position all game. And yes, players do that shit, even in objective games. A power position can be problematic or even impossible to break without SOMETHING to force their hands.

Is this a map design issue? Sure. We can try to eliminate these positions, but the reality is even the best laid map designs are going to have positions superior to others. A well placed Rocket Laucher or power up can make a huge difference in how a map plays out, and can be just as integral to the overall map design as the power positions themselves.

Okay, so, now we're intentionally throttling what good players can get away with. Why? Why is it problematic if good players have a setup you can't break in terms of pure gunskill. If they're doing that, obviously they're doing something right that you could emulate. If you were coordinated and skilled enough. So much as one pick can result in a good snowball collapse, too. I just don't get the line of thinking.

Furthermore, why is the solution to just be rid of power positions, lol. Solution's how we get garbage like Echelon and Fissure.  Power positions are good for map flow, overall. And add a good sense of rhythm to the game. They're one of the few things Halo does actually need, if not every game in the genre.

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 Ok definitely don't agree with Ice princess on 99.9% of her points but you cannot argue that other Halo games are near Halo 5 in  terms of movement skillgap.

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3 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, totally can't think for myself. @Shekkles Why does a 1v1 comment I make to Boyo get deleted, but being told I can't think for myself isn't an insta-delete. Purely curious, dude.

Because everyone except you and LEAST knows I wasn't being serious about brainwashing. Calm down, kiddo.

Did you challenge Boyo to a 1v1?

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42 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Depthful. 

Okay, so, now we're intentionally throttling what good players can get away with. Why? Why is it problematic if good players have a setup you can't break in terms of pure gunskill.

Because then you get this

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I'm certain she's only talking about obj @Cursed Lemon. Slayer can stagnate like that, but obj probably won't.

Power weapons help obj games because they create interesting priority dilemmas, and they open opportunities that help the game move forward. For certain maps (ie: not midship and warlock), it's actually very important to be able to get kills and open windows of opportunity quickly with little to no shield loss. The same goes for resisting/containing the counter-push after they spawn. Without that ability, it becomes extremely difficult to make successful plays on the objective, when you have to sacrifice most of your HP every time you engage an enemy. It leads to longer, more "stalematey" games because you need your full team present to accomplish the goal. At that point, since you had to commit more resources to the obj itself, you have less map presence to contain afterwards. In CTF that means that spawners can flip the map much more easily, and in Assault that means spawners can just brute force back into their base with much less punishment, since they'll be trading near-equivalent damage. If it were to be put into matchmaking tomorrow, I would bet $1000 that the average score across all MM games would be significantly lower, and that +80% of games would go to the time limit.

Now, that mostly applies to CTF and Assault, but applies to a lesser extent in KotH and Ball too. You could argue that any given amount of control immediately becomes more tenuous without power weapons, since all things are equal outside of needing to hold a disadvantageous position in KotH or being a gun down in Ball. That, in theory, should lead to more changes in control and closer games. But power items are just as often used to retake control as they are used to retain it. The mere fact that they are spawning and must be accounted for creates a sub-objective that temporarily diverts resources. It creates tense, pivotal moments in the game that will likely create momentum in one direction or another for a couple minutes. None of it is random, and all of it hinges on proper execution, which is by no means a given. That, to me and most other Halo players, creates much more interesting gameplay.

That isn't to say that utility-only games can't work. I'd even go as far as saying that if they were in MM on a low weighting, I think they'd be a fun change of pace because they require such a different skillset. But for that to be all of Halo? Fuck no. That'd be boring as shit.

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4 hours ago, Ethereal Nights said:

Because everyone except you and LEAST knows I wasn't being serious about brainwashing. Calm down, kiddo.

Did you challenge Boyo to a 1v1?

Not inclined to believe you, but yes, I did.

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4 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Depthful. 

 

19 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Okay, kiddo.

 

19 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Whatever keeps you asleep at night, Scarecrow.

Ironic

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10 minutes ago, JordanB said:

 

 

Ironic

Big difference between being mid response and doing that, and cutting out the conversation before it even starts because I don't care to converse, lol.

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Just tell us what your ideal Halo looks like so we have some basis to go off for what you believe.

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7 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

@ShekklesW hy does a 1v1 comment I make to Boyo get deleted, but being told I can't think for myself isn't an insta-delete. Purely curious, dude.

You know what I think?

I think the reason you get so much friction on here is not because you're wrong or because you put your opinion across badly, I think it's because the game you talk about isn't Halo.

People try and relate what you say to Halo but can't because the game you want to play isn't Halo. It makes all these walls of text, all these replies and heated discussions totally worthless and I just do not understand why after 3 years it's still happening.

Also I haven't hidden a post in like 7 pages?

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