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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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We went from "people happen to have rockets and camo" to "people happen to shoot me in the back and that's why we need advanced mobility". Also H4 was more even starts than any other game in the series. 

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4 hours ago, Basu said:

 "people happen to shoot me in the back and that's why we need advanced mobility". 

Can't this still happen with "advanced mobility"? 

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TIL - Most player behavior is purely random.

Get hit by a grenade? totally random throw.  They didn't get a call out, or see me, or predict a spawn, or predict an objective route.  They certainly weren't flushing a chokepoint.  Totally random. Granted, random grenades happen in Halo 5 all the time but lets blame the right things here.  Those are random throws because people are using grenades as radar instead of damage dealers.  Get rid of the grenade hit markers and that problem solves itself.

Shot by a rocket? Wow they must have just found that.  They didn't kill someone and take it from them.  Or pick it up off its spawn, the same spawn that everybody knows that's in the same spot every time. They must have just "happened upon it". randomly.

Shot in the back? They had no idea where they were going and just happened to see me.  Totally random.  I was randomly not near any cover. Or they spawned right there randomly. Nobody could have guessed they were coming that way. They couldn't possible have guessed i was going that way and purposefully came up behind me. NO way.

On and on.  Look, some of this shit does happen randomly sometimes. And it feels shitty but I don't think this kind of truly random situation happens all that much. It can feel that way at times, but usually someone was making a decision with some logic behind it. You not being aware of something doesn't make it random and it doesn't make it unfair. The times when player decisions are truly random are from players that are either not paying attention or just terrible in general.  Should we be catering the game to the lowest common denominator? The people that wouldn't know the difference anyway and are generally pretty easy to beat even if they do tag you with a random grenade from time to time? Fuck no.

 

You know what is random 100% of the time? Ordinance drops.  The only "risk" involved with those is that you get shitty stuff sometimes. But you may also get some real baller shit. And drop it right in your lap in a concealed corner with nobody else to challenge you for it. All because the game randomly rolled a 10 and dropped you rockets, while they rolled a 2 and dropped the other team a needler.

 

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11 hours ago, Nokt said:

I'd argue that in competent/high level play grenades are used extremely often and its rare that you'll find them on a dead body. Thats why using one in such a unknown situation is the big risk. You throw it, miss, the opponent still has 1 or 2 nades up their sleeve. Its just another tool and it all depends on how you use it.

I'm not entirely opposed to an impulse grenade being introduced like in Fortnite. Sounds like something @Boyo would cook up.

It's not just height presence, its sight lines, its controlling enemy spawns (to a point), its putting yourself in much more favorable positions. Controlling the possible outcomes in which the enemy can react to your movements. PW/PU can break up a power position, but its never a guarantee, just like sniper won't guarantee me a kill in CQC and rockets won't in a wide open spacious area. For me it just add variety to the gameplay, the possibilities of what can happen, and reacting to them.

I mean this whole thing is mostly a subjective opinion of fun, but honestly.

Watching montages like Office Hyena, Skols, ZRTROOKIO, Evader, or even the older stuff like It Was Luck, Rippon, Gunshot. Watching and competing in tournamenttis over the years MLG, HCS, AGL, Grassroots, Dreamhack, etc. Stuff like that is why I play Halo, it motivates me to want to hit a clip like them, to be able to play at such a high level. Watching and playing in H2A no PU/PW with reduced grenades off spawn just isn't it. There is no motivational factor there even if it did have a ranking system. Single Halo Clips would be lined up with so many similar clips and montages would be too. It removes a lot of what Halo is and its identity even if its not perfect.

 

Yeah, that's the thing about map control. You control every single one of those things, but that still won't put you at an inherent damage advantage. You can push someone to spawn somewhere, like elbow on Coli, but if they outgun you in a fight, they now get that position and the ability to move up, while you're on respawn. Think about mid-map presence, too. Where most power weapons lay. Pit or Coli's rocks. When you get the first squad wipe, or something close enough to grab the rockets, you not only have presence, but near guaranteed kills from the sheer power of rockets. So anyone pushing to you (as they need to) is at your mercy. Whereas if you didn't have those, you'd need to play angles and properly engage to keep your position. And it doesn't boil down to a straight DPS increase.

I can "maybe" see variety as a point, but to me, nothing's more boring than killing someone with, or being killed with power weapons. Not much in the way of takeaways when it happens. Or having the shot of a god, and not being able to contest someone because they have rockets. But hey, yunno. Viewpoints.

6 hours ago, Basu said:

We went from "people happen to have rockets and camo" to "people happen to shoot me in the back and that's why we need advanced mobility". Also H4 was more even starts than any other game in the series. 

Whoosh.

54 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

TIL - Most player behavior is purely random.

Get hit by a grenade? totally random throw.  They didn't get a call out, or see me, or predict a spawn, or predict an objective route.  They certainly weren't flushing a chokepoint.  Totally random. Granted, random grenades happen in Halo 5 all the time but lets blame the right things here.  Those are random throws because people are using grenades as radar instead of damage dealers.  Get rid of the grenade hit markers and that problem solves itself.

Shot by a rocket? Wow they must have just found that.  They didn't kill someone and take it from them.  Or pick it up off its spawn, the same spawn that everybody knows that's in the same spot every time. They must have just "happened upon it". randomly.

Shot in the back? They had no idea where they were going and just happened to see me.  Totally random.  I was randomly not near any cover. Or they spawned right there randomly. Nobody could have guessed they were coming that way. They couldn't possible have guessed i was going that way and purposefully came up behind me. NO way.

On and on.  Look, some of this shit does happen randomly sometimes. And it feels shitty but I don't think this kind of truly random situation happens all that much. It can feel that way at times, but usually someone was making a decision with some logic behind it. You not being aware of something doesn't make it random and it doesn't make it unfair. The times when player decisions are truly random are from players that are either not paying attention or just terrible in general.  Should we be catering the game to the lowest common denominator? The people that wouldn't know the difference anyway and are generally pretty easy to beat even if they do tag you with a random grenade from time to time? Fuck no.

You know what is random 100% of the time? Ordinance drops.  The only "risk" involved with those is that you get shitty stuff sometimes. But you may also get some real baller shit. And drop it right in your lap in a concealed corner with nobody else to challenge you for it. All because the game randomly rolled a 10 and dropped you rockets, while they rolled a 2 and dropped the other team a needler.

To the nades, it can literally be a random toss you make. Be it on any tight hall in Guardian, or Plaza, or Rig, or Adrift, etc etc etc, there will be times you can't have LoS on someone, not know they're there, throw a nade, and nuke them. Especially with airbursting. A chokepoint's a chokepoint, but the action itself is still a cointoss. You're not guaranteeing or aware it'll 100% for sure be a hit. You're tossing in the hopes it is. Getting rid of grenade hitmarkers stops people from flying knowing they hit someone. It doesn't stop them from throwing the nade and banking it off a wall. Because this happens in games outside of Halo 5. We can see it happening, lol.

And again, my point wasn't on how the action of being shot in the back was random, and this is why it's bad. My point was on how you can't turn around half the time, because Halo as a console shooter doesn't enable it. Slow senses and all. It's not about the fact people could flank you, and kill you. It's about the fact that, even if I wanted to, as I do, I'm not gonna be whipping around on a gamepad, able to counter them. And as a result, in some way, I feel advanced movement can mitigate that, and give more player agency in gunfights, as we've seen it can.

As said earlier, never spoke on rockets, never spoke on ordnance. I specifically said nothing on PWs, bar a footnote above as a response, and ordnance was cut out of the loadout equation for Halo 4, as my point was only on starting weapons and map pickups barring them. I didn't say anything on, or argue for half this shit, lol. And the context in which I would differs.

 

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The fact of the matter is that if you get first shot in most Halo games, your opponent has little chance of surviving. I don’t think that’s interesting, but neither is escaping gunfights. Incidentally this was the main reason for the Evolved settings to exist. As was suggested, the root cause of easy weapons should be addressed, in addition to keeping the utility weapon kill time at or below Halo 5’s so people have no reason to run away from a fight. The problems were the inability to tune weapon difficulty and the unfun aiming system.

Though thrust lets you dodge nades that are thrown constantly to probe with hitmarkers, if the explosion radius is increased because of this then you are screwed when you don’t have thrust available. The simple solution is making the explosive radius escapable with walking assuming classic movement. Bringing back Halo 1’s system where the timer only starts when the nade is still would help this, but it’s a departure from Halo 2/3 so it’s “controversial.”

There’s no point in debating if Halo 5’s or 3’s movement takes more skill. Clearly Splyce proved there was a skill gap at a high level. But I think for many people at a high level and at an entry level, the abilities impede what you can do because most of them add no functional additions to what you can do while also handicapping your damage output. Compare this to being able to build 3x base speed in Quake in a few seconds, shoot and move at the same time, and get such a satisfying feeling from moving around that many people play “defrag” just to race around. So instead of arguing which takes more skill, argue whether the positives outweigh the negatives. I would argue they don’t in Halo 5, although some of the positives are really just bandaid fixes for Halo’s long lasting problems with easy weapons and bad strafing.

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15 hours ago, Nokt said:

Halo 2 MCC is the only game I've seen where you can literally jump and have someone spawn directly below you and I agree that isn't how it should be, but thats a byproduct of a bad port. 

I actually vividly recalling this being a thing in the OG version. You could stand in the opposing team's base on Warlock, Jump to negate your spawn "blocking" if you will, and they could spawn right next to/in front of you. There was also an example of Karma playing 1v1 jumping somewhere and seeing the opposing player spawn directly in front of him for the backwack. 

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27 minutes ago, II AdamanT II said:

I actually vividly recalling this being a thing in the OG version. You could stand in the opposing team's base on Warlock, Jump to negate your spawn "blocking" if you will, and they could spawn right next to/in front of you. There was also an example of Karma playing 1v1 jumping somewhere and seeing the opposing player spawn directly in front of him for the backwack. 

Yeah, this is a general failing of Halo 2.  High level 1v1s were often about getting the other player to spawn in the same exact spot not looking at you repeatedly. snooze

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Not knowing something is not the same as randomness. If I am shoving my face into a wall for 2 minutes and get naded from behind that doesn't make it random because I had the opportunity to have that information. I just didn't take it. And if the randomness in question can be negated by simply turning your stick a few degrees it's not random. This is sorta the bane of Siege as a game with a million variables is that you scout out at the start and retrieve all the information you can to make it predictable.

 

Also whether or not Halo 5 style movement takes skill compared to classic movement is not the point or what should be discussed. It's more about what it takes to accomplish that skill gap alongside its other effects on the game. If you can make a comparable skillgap out of 2 actions (stick + crouch) as opposed to.... However many actions in Halo 5 (stick, crouch, clamber, hover, gp, thrust, slide) and have none of the downsides...why wouldn't you. Quake creates arguably the greatest skill gap for movement out of NO additional inputs. That's an even better designed system.

 

If this has all been discussed I'm sorry I'm just jumping in I didn't read that far back

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2 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

It's like a competition to see who can argue more points that were never mentioned. Sheesh.

 

1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Whoosh.

I'm not going to dig through your last 5 essays to "prove" where you said this. And if it was sarcasm good job I guess we've all be trolled.

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14 minutes ago, Basu said:

I'm not going to dig through your last 5 essays to "prove" where you said this.

Then why even bother talking, lmao. Just a waste of breath if you're not actually gonna read, but are just gonna sit there making random jab remarks with no substance.

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Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

Then why even bother talking, lmao. Just a waste of breath if you're not actually gonna read, but are just gonna sit there making random jab remarks with no substance.

Shouldn’t you tell that to your shadow?

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Shouldn’t you tell that to your shadow?

It's not my job to. I'm only doing it here because it's directed to me. 

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10 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Then why even bother talking, lmao. Just a waste of breath if you're not actually gonna read, but are just gonna sit there making random jab remarks with no substance.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying you didn't say that. Just saying the burden of proof for "omg I never said that lol" is on you especially since each of your posts has been at least five paragraphs. Or at least clarify what you actually mean then if I'm not reading between the lines enough lol. As for not reading your posts I've read all of them and don't feel like putting myself through it again.

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We could expedite this.  Tell me what you disagree with here.

Power weapons are cheap and should be removed from play.

Grenades are cheap and should be removed from play.

No weapons should be picked up off the map.

Customizable load outs make the game more fair.

Trading your ability to attack for advanced movement gives the player more agency.

Feel free to add anything I have missed.

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2 minutes ago, Basu said:

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying you didn't say that. Just saying the burden of proof for "omg I never said that lol" is on you especially since each of your posts has been at least five paragraphs. Or at least clarify what you actually mean then if I'm not reading between the lines enough lol. I've read all of them and don't feel like putting myself through it again.

It isn't on me if you're not reading my posts thoroughly, but still responding.

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If someone felt the need to come to my defense on every single one of their posts, I would probably tell them to shut the fuck up and that I could speak for myself.  I would tell them it makes me look bad, like I need defending.

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Damn you for making me do this:

18 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

 Halo 4 had no pickups, and with loadouts as a thing, was closer to "equal starts" than any other Halo.

Oof there she goes saying exactly what I said she did.

18 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

And back to my old point, advanced movement is better for giving players that agency and ability to get out of situations like that. This may sound like a tangent, but I feel you half jumped in onto my point, so I'm sorta adding onto what I originally inferred to others. 

And again

 

On 7/25/2019 at 5:37 AM, TheIcePrincess said:

And equal starts already mean nothing in Halo as long as pickups exist. And of course, again, I think Halo's idea (At least in part) of "natural conclusions" is dumb. Like being shot in the side or back with nothing to counter it, even if you're better than the person shooting you, AND have your gun up.

Didn't even have to go look for this one as in the Beast/Ice universe it's established lore that "player movement is 100% random" (remember that great hitscan vs projective debate everyone) but I found it funny nonetheless. So yeah good job calling me out for lying and being a waste of breath I guess. Now are you going to clarify where 10 different people are going wrong and not understanding your posts or are you going to continue the "I never said that" and "Cring normie haha r/WOOOOOOOSH" route?

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21 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Yea if we could stop complaining about word count on a FORUM that would be pretty cool. 

There's a difference between long posts of well-made arguments and those that just ramble on and on. I read every post in this thread including hers. To ask me to go back and re-read them all because I "just go wooshed" is much weirder to me than complaining about word count. What's also weirder is going full politician and denying statements that were made literally yesterday. Like what the fuck.

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6 minutes ago, Boyo said:

If someone felt the need to come to my defense on every single one of their posts, I would probably tell them to shut the fuck up and that I could speak for myself.  I would tell them it makes me look bad, like I need defending.

Good thing no one comes to my defense.

5 minutes ago, Basu said:

Didn't even have to go look for this one as in the Beast/Ice universe it's established lore that "player movement is 100% random" (remember that great hitscan vs projective debate everyone) but I found it funny nonetheless. So yeah good job calling me out for lying and being a waste of breath I guess. Now are you going to clarify where 10 different people are going wrong and not understanding your posts or are you going to continue the "I never said that" and "omng Cring normie haha r/WOOOOOOOSH" route?

Yeah, look at the timestamps. They're from nearly a day ago, or over a day old. When I've had a specifically recent post in the past few hours speaking on what I say in more "concise" formats. Second, I didn't call you out for lying. At all. I just said you were wasting your breath if you're gonna sit on the sidelines being passive aggressive. Even then, saying you argued shit I never said isn't saying you're lying. At worst, you'd be strawmanning, lol. I don't want to be believe you're being intentionally disingenuous. But that's its own thing.

If you read my later post, you'd see the clarifications, or rather, the narrowing down of what I mean, overall. Like my point on advanced movement. That specific quote came from a paragraph where I wasn't talking about being shot in the back, lol. I was only talking on escape potential. And explained why I felt escape could be okay in some circumstances. With my entire point not just circling around to being shot in the back, even if it's a problem. And my recent post doubled down on it over focusing on being shot in the back. 

Then again, the referring to people saying shit I didn't say didn't entirely apply to you. Applied to Apollo more so, given he's argued points I said nothing on as a rebuttal. 

25 minutes ago, Basu said:

There's a difference between long posts of well-made arguments and those that just ramble on and on. I read every post in this thread including hers. To ask me to go back and re-read them all because I "just go wooshed" is much weirder to me than complaining about word count. What's also weirder is going full politician and denying statements that were made literally yesterday. Like what the fuck.

There's a difference between an argument that is poor rambling, and an argument you disagree with. Obviously it isn't written poorly if I can have a debate with someone who's understanding what I'm saying and responding in good faith and context, but just contrasting me with their own points.

Also didn't deny anything. I only said you didn't read and understand my points. As said prior, you're hinging on the wrong parts of my sentences, and not the collective whole. I said what I said, but how it was taken was improper. Hence "whoosh", not "I didn't say that". You misunderstood me. It isn't ten people misunderstanding, either. It's about 2 people to the 1 I've debated with properly. Not really a massive ratio.

 

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

We could expedite this.  Tell me what you disagree with here.

Power weapons are cheap and should be removed from play.

Grenades are cheap and should be removed from play.

No weapons should be picked up off the map.

Customizable load outs make the game more fair.

Trading your ability to attack for advanced movement gives the player more agency.

Feel free to add anything I have missed.

Why don’t you respond to this?

If you don’t just crave attention, and aren’t trying to hide behind ambiguous ramblings, then why not just plainly state what you believe.  Tell us what your ideal Halo looks like.

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3 hours ago, II AdamanT II said:

I actually vividly recalling this being a thing in the OG version. You could stand in the opposing team's base on Warlock, Jump to negate your spawn "blocking" if you will, and they could spawn right next to/in front of you. There was also an example of Karma playing 1v1 jumping somewhere and seeing the opposing player spawn directly in front of him for the backwack. 

Hm, I wasn't aware at the time, but at the same time I was 14 when it came out so very possible I just blocked that out lol. I never remembered it being that bad.

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6 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, that's the thing about map control. You control every single one of those things, but that still won't put you at an inherent damage advantage. You can push someone to spawn somewhere, like elbow on Coli, but if they outgun you in a fight, they now get that position and the ability to move up, while you're on respawn. Think about mid-map presence, too. Where most power weapons lay. Pit or Coli's rocks. When you get the first squad wipe, or something close enough to grab the rockets, you not only have presence, but near guaranteed kills from the sheer power of rockets. So anyone pushing to you (as they need to) is at your mercy. Whereas if you didn't have those, you'd need to play angles and properly engage to keep your position. And it doesn't boil down to a straight DPS increase.

I can "maybe" see variety as a point, but to me, nothing's more boring than killing someone with, or being killed with power weapons. Not much in the way of takeaways when it happens. Or having the shot of a god, and not being able to contest someone because they have rockets. But hey, yunno. Viewpoints.

It mostly sounds like a difference of opinion. You just don't like damage advantages, not that there is something inherently wrong with them. In a game where seeing another player first gives you a large advantage of getting the kill in battles map control is at the very least equally important. 

I have no stats for this but I don't think PU/PW even take up 1/3 of the kills that occur within a match (maybe in Slayer). Them existing isn't invalidating your gun skill. Its just enough to provide some spice into a match, but not overbearing enough to be an annoyance. 

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1 hour ago, Nokt said:

It mostly sounds like a difference of opinion. You just don't like damage advantages, not that there is something inherently wrong with them. In a game where seeing another player first gives you a large advantage of getting the kill in battles map control is at the very least equally important. 

I have no stats for this but I don't think PU/PW even take up 1/3 of the kills that occur within a match (maybe in Slayer). Them existing isn't invalidating your gun skill. Its just enough to provide some spice into a match, but not overbearing enough to be an annoyance. 

I would say the sniper in the last few games has been more than overbearing.

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