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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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17 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Do you want me to say that movement in Halo 5 takes more skill than Halo 3?  That’s debatable and not an objective fact.  The jump that started this whole discussion is extremely difficult to perform.  Some jumps in Halo 5 are extremely difficult to perform.  Not sure what you want me to say.  But feel free to act like a moody child.

Just because movement in Halo 5 takes more effort, constantly pressing buttons, doesn’t necessarily mean it takes more skill.

Yikes

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Even if we say that movement in Halo 5 takes more skill, the total skill gap is still shrunk by the fact that you can’t move and shoot simultaneously.  Not to mention that it just doesn’t play like a Halo game anymore, regardless of skill gap.

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

The total skill gap is still shrunk by the fact that you can’t move and shoot simultaneously. 

Prove that.

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5 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Prove that.

It’s my opinion girl.  Chill out.

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Just now, Boyo said:

It’s my opinion girl.  Chill out.

I'm just saying prove it. Hold your ground. You're making an absolute statement, I want to know the reasoning behind it.

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Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

I'm just saying prove it. Hold your ground. You're making an absolute statement, I want to know the reasoning behind it.

Because moving and shooting simultaneously takes more skill than moving or shooting like you do in Halo 5.  Plus there were a lot of tac jumps that took a lot of skill to perform under pressure, sometimes backwards and while firing, in classic Halos.  The advanced movement skill gap in Halo 5 is not enough to make up for that. 

Now prove to me Halo 5 takes more skill if you wanna go that route.

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Just now, Boyo said:

Because moving and shooting simultaneously takes more skill than moving or shooting like you do in Halo 5.  Plus there were a lot of tac jumps that took a lot of skill to perform under pressure, sometimes backwards and while firing, in classic Halos.  The advanced movement skill gap in Halo 5 is not enough to make up for that. 

Now prove to me Halo 5 takes more skill if you wanna go that route.

I wasn't making the claim, so, no. Not really something I care to get into "proving".

But okay. Got a slight peek into the noggin. Tis all I needed.

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Also, it’s not just about you moving and shooting simultaneously.  It’s about everyone else doing it too.  How many free kills have you got because you caught someone sprinting or clambering with their gun down?  How many times have you escaped death because of sprinting or clambering?

Any game with sprint where you lower your gun will never truely have “equal starts” in gun battles because one player will almost always get the first shot free.  In classic Halo, all players were always ready to fire and there was no easy escape so it forced engagements to play out to their natural conclusion, right then, right there.

No need to be salty mama.

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It's like watching Ron Swanson and Leslie Knope discuss politics minus all the things that made it entertaining.

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28 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

It's like watching Ron Swanson and Leslie Knope discuss politics minus all the things that made it entertaining.

We need a laugh upvote

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Just now, Boyo said:

Also, it’s not just about you moving and shooting simultaneously.  It’s about everyone else doing it too.  How many free kills have you got because you caught someone sprinting or clambering with their gun down?  How many times have you escaped death because of sprinting or clambering?

Any game with sprint where you lower your gun will never truely have “equal starts” in gun battles because one player will almost always get the first shot free.  In classic Halo, all players were always ready and there was no easy escape so it forced engagements to play out to their natural conclusion.

No need to be salty mama.

How many times have you gotten free kills on people who're moving while looking away that you can just aimtrace because they have no movement mechanics to actually dodge or counter you, and Halo as a console shooter doesn't even allow you to naturally and viably fight back, lol. You'll catch people in dumb/uncounterable situations a lot in either Halo. I'd still vouch for some semblance of individual escapability than just accepting a pure death which could very well be out of your control.

And equal starts already mean nothing in Halo as long as pickups exist. And of course, again, I think Halo's idea (At least in part) of "natural conclusions" is dumb. Like being shot in the side or back with nothing to counter it, even if you're better than the person shooting you, AND have your gun up.

Call me mama again. Best to know who your parent is.

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47 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

How many times have you gotten free kills on people who're moving while looking away that you can just aimtrace because they have no movement mechanics to actually dodge or counter you, and Halo as a console shooter doesn't even allow you to naturally and viably fight back, lol. You'll catch people in dumb/uncounterable situations a lot in either Halo. I'd still vouch for some semblance of individual escapability than just accepting a pure death which could very well be out of your control. 

Thats why we need a good base speed instead of sprint/thrust/dodge so people can actually strafe. High magnetism and slow base speeds have prevented us from even getting close to having a good strafe.

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17 minutes ago, Nokt said:

Thats why we need a good base speed instead of sprint/thrust/dodge so people can actually strafe. High magnetism and slow base speeds have prevented us from even getting close to having a good strafe.

Anything works. Actual strafe, jank ass movement. Just SOMETHING.

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Instead of increasing a players abilityy to escape just make the shooting skillgap wider so there's always a chance to outshoot someone

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4 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

How many times have you gotten free kills on people who're moving while looking away that you can just aimtrace because they have no movement mechanics to actually dodge or counter you, and Halo as a console shooter doesn't even allow you to naturally and viably fight back, lol. You'll catch people in dumb/uncounterable situations a lot in either Halo.

The difference between coming upon a sprinting enemy and coming upon an enemy not looking at you is the sprinting enemy is mechanically prevented by the game from firing back at you.  Not at all comparable but nice try doll.

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12 hours ago, Boyo said:

Any game with sprint where you lower your gun will never truely have “equal starts” in gun battles because one player will almost always get the first shot free.  In classic Halo, all players were always ready to fire and there was no easy escape so it forced engagements to play out to their natural conclusion, right then, right there.

Probably the most succinct explanation of the problem with sprint when 2 combatants come upon one another.

10 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

How many times have you gotten free kills on people who're moving while looking away that you can just aimtrace because they have no movement mechanics to actually dodge or counter you, and Halo as a console shooter doesn't even allow you to naturally and viably fight back, lol. You'll catch people in dumb/uncounterable situations a lot in either Halo. I'd still vouch for some semblance of individual escapability than just accepting a pure death which could very well be out of your control.

And equal starts already mean nothing in Halo as long as pickups exist. And of course, again, I think Halo's idea (At least in part) of "natural conclusions" is dumb. Like being shot in the side or back with nothing to counter it, even if you're better than the person shooting you, AND have your gun up.

In order for "free kills" like that to happen in classic movement halo, one or a combination of things needs to happen:

  1. The person killed lacked the awareness to know where someone could be coming from
  2. They took a route with limited/no cover
  3. The attacker took a creative or flanking route that was hard to anticipate in the first place

Those are all one player making a decision that gives them an advantage over the other player, so i fail to see the issue with it. They don't usually "just happen".  The times when they do "just happen" are 2 players blissfully unaware that these are mental calculations that can even be made.  Add advanced mobility into the mix with the differential movement speeds and stretched maps and things get a lot messier.  I would much prefer properly tuned projectile weapons and competent strafe to solve the "Caught with my pants down and now i have no chance" problem.

Equal starts still exist with pickups as long as there is either an equivalent pickup on either side of the map, or said pickup is placed equidistant from both starting spawn locations.  Static timers keep this true throughout the entire duration of the match. You start to run into trouble with the Halo 2 and 3 dynamic spawns which H5 mercifully fixed (at least for power weapons.......).

5 hours ago, Boyo said:

The difference between coming upon a sprinting enemy and coming upon an enemy not looking at you is the sprinting enemy is mechanically prevented by the game from firing back at you.  Not at all comparable but nice try doll.

Sometimes you make a good point then add some salty oof at the end and just undo everything.

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11 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Like being shot in the side or back with nothing to counter it, even if you're better than the person shooting you, AND have your gun up.

The fact that you are persistently trying to manufacture a balance problem out of the idea that sometimes you get shot while you're not looking is really bizarre. 

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16 hours ago, OG Nick said:

Instead of increasing a players abilityy to escape just make the shooting skillgap wider so there's always a chance to outshoot someone

On a console, I doubt it's ever happening. Doesn't prevent things like nades, or spawn circumstance, etc, too.

9 hours ago, Apoll0 said:

In order for "free kills" like that to happen in classic movement halo, one or a combination of things needs to happen:

  1. The person killed lacked the awareness to know where someone could be coming from
  2. They took a route with limited/no cover
  3. The attacker took a creative or flanking route that was hard to anticipate in the first place

Those are all one player making a decision that gives them an advantage over the other player, so i fail to see the issue with it. They don't usually "just happen".  The times when they do "just happen" are 2 players blissfully unaware that these are mental calculations that can even be made.  Add advanced mobility into the mix with the differential movement speeds and stretched maps and things get a lot messier.  I would much prefer properly tuned projectile weapons and competent strafe to solve the "Caught with my pants down and now i have no chance" problem.

Equal starts still exist with pickups as long as there is either an equivalent pickup on either side of the map, or said pickup is placed equidistant from both starting spawn locations.  Static timers keep this true throughout the entire duration of the match. You start to run into trouble with the Halo 2 and 3 dynamic spawns which H5 mercifully fixed (at least for power weapons.......).

First, the three points don't counter my issue. My issue is partially with inherent console aiming and how even if you are aware, or know someone is behind you (By say, soundwhoring a short time before the engagement), you can't turn around to fight them before they can put you down in older Halos. Nor can you actually escape, even if it's a situation that outright isn't your fault. It's not always about a lack of awareness or somebody making the flank plays. Sometimes you can spawn or have someone spawn behind you. Or any number of pure circumstantial things. Like being naded around a corner when someone can't see you, or may not even hear you/know of your presence. But they get a pretty free kill on you, or at the least stop your movement, because you can't escape or react to it properly in older Halos. My one example was a lack of turning around, it's only one issue I have, and every other is compounded by rigid movement. 

My entire point here being, free kills happen a lot more when your movement is more rigid as a result of how it's designed. You're naded? Well, shit, it's not like you can immediately juke and dodge away, or slide off. So on, so forth.

Even with advanced movement as an example, you're not really catching people with their sprint pants down, as per the original example. Because at any high, or competent level, people aren't sprinting to that point where they're constantly being shot at/getting into engagements while sprinting. If a nade's thrown, you can also thrust back five feet before it hits the ground to hit you. So you can actually dodge a random nade, and scuttle off, even if you're struck. Which you should be able to. I don't think every time you die is totally fair and a result of user error, inherently. And back to my old point, advanced movement is better for giving players that agency and ability to get out of situations like that. This may sound like a tangent, but I feel you half jumped in onto my point, so I'm sorta adding onto what I originally inferred to others. 

And no, what I mean is equal starts literally doesn't matter with pickups existing. It's a buzzword essentially. Even if there's equivalent pickups, not every single player will have a DMR/BR to pick up off spawn in relation to their AR, or w/e, and every single player isn't staying with their spawn weapon 100% of the time. Because, yunno, we can't put 8 of them on these maps, logistically (so it's never actually equal), and as a result, some people will pick up have shit others don't that can kick your ass off spawn. Like Maulers, or a PR, or a Boltshot, etc. And obviously they have to be good or better in some way to warrant them being pickups that you want to pick up. CE had its stun-lock that absolutely stops you in your tracks, H2 had a supppper dumb plasma pistol, H3 had... Maulers, H5 had fucking everything, so on, so forth. Halo 4 had no pickups, and with loadouts as a thing, was closer to "equal starts" than any other Halo. Take a solid guess as to how it did it. And why it was surprisingly intuitive. 

Past that, at a base, some people are gonna be at an advantage that is straight up DPS/performance based with their weapons over an advantage stemming from map flow and positioning. That neuter the fact you all start with equal weapons. Because it isn't equal weapons that are always ending these fights. 

Equal starts means nothing when that exists and is pushed for. 

9 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

The fact that you are persistently trying to manufacture a balance problem out of the idea that sometimes you get shot while you're not looking is really bizarre. 

Don't even understand what you mean by balance problem, lol. Elaborate.

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27 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

First, the three points don't counter my issue. My issue is partially with inherent console aiming and how even if you are aware, or know someone is behind you (By say, soundwhoring a short time before the engagement), you can't turn around to fight them before they can put you down in older Halos. Nor can you actually escape, even if it's a situation that outright isn't your fault. It's not always about a lack of awareness or somebody making the flank plays. Sometimes you can spawn or have someone spawn behind you. Or any number of pure circumstantial things. Like being naded around a corner when someone can't see you, or may not even hear you/know of your presence. But they get a pretty free kill on you, or at the least stop your movement, because you can't escape or react to it properly in older Halos. My one example was a lack of turning around, it's only one issue I have, and every other is compounded by rigid movement. 

My entire point here being, free kills happen a lot more when your movement is more rigid as a result of how it's designed. You're naded? Well, shit, it's not like you can immediately juke and dodge away, or slide off. So on, so forth.

Even with advanced movement as an example, you're not really catching people with their sprint pants down, as per the original example. Because at any high, or competent level, people aren't sprinting to that point where they're constantly being shot at/getting into engagements while sprinting. If a nade's thrown, you can also thrust back five feet before it hits the ground to hit you. So you can actually dodge a random nade, and scuttle off, even if you're struck. Which you should be able to. I don't think every time you die is totally fair and a result of user error, inherently. And back to my old point, advanced movement is better for giving players that agency and ability to get out of situations like that. This may sound like a tangent, but I feel you half jumped in onto my point, so I'm sorta adding onto what I originally inferred to others. 

Spawn manipulation has existed in every Halo, Halo 5 actually has some of the easiest spawn manipulation in the series imo. Sprint and thrust don't inherently help you out of that situation either. Halo 2 MCC is the only game I've seen where you can literally jump and have someone spawn directly below you and I agree that isn't how it should be, but thats a byproduct of a bad port. 

Sure you as a player did nothing wrong, but neither did the other player. They used the grenade and took the risk in that "I'm going to prenade this corner in hopes that someone comes around". Risk/reward situation and you are completely invalidating it. It might be fair for you, but its not fair to the other player who took that chance. Its exactly like prefiring a corner because you believe someone is going to poke out. Should you be able to dodge those bullets too?

As far as spawning into a rocket/grenades I've never had this become a serious issue outside of HCE 4's because of how easy spawn guessing is, but its not nearly as prevalent in H2 and even less so in H3. How do you balance this anyways? Are you just going to thrust off spawn every time you spawn? 

This sounds more like spawn settings need to be manipulated/corrected more than using sprint or thrust to avoid these situations. 

27 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

And no, what I mean is equal starts literally doesn't matter with pickups existing. It's a buzzword essentially. Even if there's equivalent pickups, not every single player will have a DMR/BR to pick up off spawn in relation to their AR, or w/e, and every single player isn't staying with their spawn weapon 100% of the time. Because, yunno, we can't put 8 of them on these maps, logistically (so it's never actually equal), and as a result, some people will pick up have shit others don't that can kick your ass off spawn. Like Maulers, or a PR, or a Boltshot, etc. And obviously they have to be good or better in some way to warrant them being pickups that you want to pick up. CE had its stun-lock that absolutely stops you in your tracks, H2 had a supppper dumb plasma pistol, H3 had... Maulers, H5 had fucking everything, so on, so forth. Halo 4 had no pickups, and with loadouts as a thing, was closer to "equal starts" than any other Halo. Take a solid guess as to how it did it. And why it was surprisingly intuitive. 

Past that, at a base, some people are gonna be at an advantage that is straight up DPS/performance based with their weapons over an advantage stemming from map flow and positioning. That neuter the fact you all start with equal weapons. Because it isn't equal weapons that are always ending these fights. 

Equal starts means nothing when that exists and is pushed for. 

I think when most people here think of equal starts its literally just the beginning of the game and nothing else. Besides spawning left/right (because everyone can't spawn in the exact same spot) and asym maps Halo is for the most part equal starts. It sounds like you want equal spawns 100% of the time, which seems pretty hard to balance because you still have to deal with power positions. You'll never have equal starts outside of the initial spawn. Unless you want to play gametypes like octagon 24/7, which is fine if you do, but I think majority of people don't. 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

 Halo 4 had no pickups, and with loadouts as a thing, was closer to "equal starts" than any other Halo.

Wrong.

Halo 4, when it started out, had random Power Weapons spawn on the map, in random locations, for the whole match. Along with that, everyone had the ability to obtain more random Power Weapons with kills. Objective modes didn't fare any better, because even if the ability to obtain ordnance was turned off, the loadouts themselves proved to be entirely pointless. If your loadout didn't have a DMR, Boltshot, extra Frags/Plasmas, and Promethian Vision, you weren't playing the game right. There was a clear hierarchy of strongest/weakest, and it remains the same even with the patch and the retuned maps.

You can fact check me, but I am very confident that Snowballing was much higher in Halo 4 than any other Halo in current history, along with the ability to swing the match at an all time low. There was less opportunity for people to succeed if they got a bad dice roll, instead of having bad teamwork. Let's not forget the fact that Sprint made it even harder to fight back, because by the time it took you to draw your weapon after you trekked across the planes of Holy-Fuck-This-Map's-Huge, you were pretty much dead.

I would rather have the opportunity to succeed through much less random factors, which is something the other Halos can provide. You yourself would prefer having the least amount of factors possible, and both of us got to do that in Halo 5 Magnum Only settings. Halo 4 was the extreme on one side, and the mentioned settings was the other. You can enjoy what you want to enjoy, but don't lie about what it is you enjoy.

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10 minutes ago, Nokt said:

Spawn manipulation has existed in every Halo, Halo 5 actually has some of the easiest spawn manipulation in the series imo. Sprint and thrust don't inherently help you out of that situation either. Halo 2 MCC is the only game I've seen where you can literally jump and have someone spawn directly below you and I agree that isn't how it should be, but thats a byproduct of a bad port. 

Sure you as a player did nothing wrong, but neither did the other player. They used the grenade and took the risk in that "I'm going to prenade this corner in hopes that someone comes around". Risk/reward situation and you are completely invalidating it. It might be fair for you, but its not fair to the other player who took that chance. Its exactly like prefiring a corner because you believe someone is going to poke out. Should you be able to dodge those bullets too?

As far as spawning into a rocket/grenades I've never had this become a serious issue outside of HCE 4's because of how easy spawn guessing is, but its not nearly as prevalent in H2 and even less so in H3. How do you balance this anyways? Are you just going to thrust off spawn every time you spawn? 

This sounds more like spawn settings need to be manipulated/corrected more than using sprint or thrust to avoid these situations. 

I think when most people here think of equal starts its literally just the beginning of the game and nothing else. Besides spawning left/right (because everyone can't spawn in the exact same spot) and asym maps Halo is for the most part equal starts. It sounds like you want equal spawns 100% of the time, which seems pretty hard to balance because you still have to deal with power positions. You'll never have equal starts outside of the initial spawn. Unless you want to play gametypes like octagon 24/7, which is fine if you do, but I think majority of people don't. 

1.) I don't feel risk/reward exists with grenades. There is no real risk to a grenade throw, here. The animation isn't long. And if we're talking this circumstance. Where we're prenading, you're not in inherent danger as you do it. Your one risk is to lose the nade... Which you can replenish. And your reward is getting a free nuke on someone. That can't/couldn't have fought back. But of course I'm invalidating it, it's a shit result of grenades existing as they do, punishing players improperly, and rewarding them improperly. God forbid we talk sticky trading. Walking into a bullet is another matter. You need line of sight, and you actually need to aim. I could bank a nade off the wall, ceiling, or floor for an airburst and be rewarded. Stark contrast.

2.) I wasn't talking spawning into rockets and nades. If we wanna talk current games, just for the sake of an example, Halo 3 on MCC has an issue with teamspawning. Meaning you can fight someone, and have a respawning enemy drop on their figurative shoulders mid-fight. Out of your control. Things like this. Not spawning in a projectile's LoS.

3.) Yep. "At the beginning of the game" is exactly my issue. It's just the beginning. Past that intro five seconds, if there are pickups, people are using them. Because they are an advantage. So it's equal starts in the most arbitrary manner.

Equal starts 100% of the time isn't hard to balance. We've done it before in customs just off the cuff. It's not a problem. Power positions remain the same, but more so mean more when you're not gonna be murdered by pickups that are extraneous to your starting weapon.

But for the real love of god.

Can we stop likening non-pickup/PW Halo to Octagon. Because they play nothing alike. And we know this. Not to come off as condescending/angry, or whatever, huge emphasis there, because, teehee, text, but the amount of times I hear this really bad comparison just irks me. It's really not true. We could play it right now, and I could real-time show you how it isn't.

On the real there. Good response. I could disagree with you 9 ways to Sunday, and you're still rational, and have a discussion. Nothing personal. Nothing passive aggressive. Just you and I discussing things. It's surprisingly normal. Weird that it's been an outlier.

Just now, S0UL FLAME said:

If your loadout didn't have a DMR, Boltshot, extra Frags/Plasmas, and Promethian Vision, you weren't playing the game right. There was a clear hierarchy of strongest/weakest, and it remains the same even with the patch and the retuned maps.

THIS is literally word for word, my point, and why there isn't anything wrong with loadouts in that sense. Which is all I spoke on. Never said anything about power weapons. Just an on map pickup basis, and your starting weapons.

Obviously, ideally, we'd just want starting weapon loadouts. But from the pure concept of equal starts and promoting them, Halo 4 by this hierarchical design promotes it more than past Halos ever did. At a high level, you're able to choose what you spawn with, and if the best happens to be those pieces of equipment, then you can PICK them for optimal play. You're not forced to pick them up from a specific area of the map one person will be able to access compared to 7 others. You're not being outgunned because someone else has a Boltshot and you don't. YOU can have a Boltshot. Same for everything else.

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50 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

1.) I don't feel risk/reward exists with grenades. There is no real risk to a grenade throw, here. The animation isn't long. And if we're talking this circumstance. Where we're prenading, you're not in inherent danger as you do it. Your one risk is to lose the nade... Which you can replenish. And your reward is getting a free nuke on someone. That can't/couldn't have fought back. But of course I'm invalidating it, it's a shit result of grenades existing as they do, punishing players improperly, and rewarding them improperly. God forbid we talk sticky trading. Walking into a bullet is another matter. You need line of sight, and you actually need to aim. I could bank a nade off the wall, ceiling, or floor for an airburst and be rewarded. Stark contrast.

2.) I wasn't talking spawning into rockets and nades. If we wanna talk current games, just for the sake of an example, Halo 3 on MCC has an issue with teamspawning. Meaning you can fight someone, and have a respawning enemy drop on their figurative shoulders mid-fight. Out of your control. Things like this. Not spawning in a projectile's LoS.

3.) Yep. "At the beginning of the game" is exactly my issue. It's just the beginning. Past that intro five seconds, if there are pickups, people are using them. Because they are an advantage. So it's equal starts in the most arbitrary manner.

Equal starts 100% of the time isn't hard to balance. We've done it before in customs just off the cuff. It's not a problem. Power positions remain the same, but more so mean more when you're not gonna be murdered by pickups that are extraneous to your starting weapon.

But for the real love of god.

Can we stop likening non-pickup/PW Halo to Octagon. Because they play nothing alike. And we know this. Not to come off as condescending/angry, or whatever, huge emphasis there, because, teehee, text, but the amount of times I hear this really bad comparison just irks me. It's really not true. We could play it right now, and I could real-time show you how it isn't.

On the real there. Good response. I could disagree with you 9 ways to Sunday, and you're still rational, and have a discussion. Nothing personal. Nothing passive aggressive. Just you and I discussing things. It's surprisingly normal. Weird that it's been an outlier.

I don't think just because you are able to replenish it means that there isn't any risk. Grenades spawns really aren't on the map all that often and you either replenish them by killing someone or respawning. You are risking it by not using it in a more guaranteed situation. Maybe the better alternate would be to make grenades a slightly longer animation or maybe they have a timer so you have to cook it otherwise it is easy to avoid. That way its still dependent on you the player rather than a mechanic invalidating your risk. 

I think most of the issues with any kind of spawning really boil down to spawn issues (like H2A spawning you in plain sight), MCC being a bad port, or just an imperfect system. I guess you could make the argument that movement mechanics help divert those issues, but I feel its a bandaid fix that introduces more problems than it fixes. 

Thats my argument though, is that because of power positions it isn't fair. Its the same as running for a power weapon or power up. Octagon was used because there is no power position or power weapon in the mode. There is other gametypes out there that exist, but I don't ever remember what they are called (like the small arena that has a flag on both sides with two pillars to help block spawns). I guess you could create larger maps that don't have power positions or at least as strong of power positions.

I played probably 5 or so games with beast and I think soul, then they went off and played H3BTB, so I have some brief experience with the mode. 

I don't know you outside of anything thats said on this forum so I have no reason to be hostile. Honestly its one of the more annoying thing when I come to this forum.

EDIT: The more I think about it, it feels like you just want to remove the effect PW/PU can have on snowballing, but not remove snowballing entirely. Just reduce it enough that you can stand your ground when in a less than ideal situation. 

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44 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I don't think just because you are able to replenish it means that there isn't any risk. Grenades spawns really aren't on the map all that often and you either replenish them by killing someone or respawning. You are risking it by not using it in a more guaranteed situation. Maybe the better alternate would be to make grenades a slightly longer animation or maybe they have a timer so you have to cook it otherwise it is easy to avoid. That way its still dependent on you the player rather than a mechanic invalidating your risk. 

I think most of the issues with any kind of spawning really boil down to spawn issues (like H2A spawning you in plain sight), MCC being a bad port, or just an imperfect system. I guess you could make the argument that movement mechanics help divert those issues, but I feel its a bandaid fix that introduces more problems than it fixes. 

Thats my argument though, is that because of power positions it isn't fair. Its the same as running for a power weapon or power up. Octagon was used because there is no power position or power weapon in the mode. There is other gametypes out there that exist, but I don't ever remember what they are called (like the small arena that has a flag on both sides with two pillars to help block spawns). I guess you could create larger maps that don't have power positions or at least as strong of power positions.

I played probably 5 or so games with beast and I think soul, then they went off and played H3BTB, so I have some brief experience with the mode. 

I don't know you outside of anything thats said on this forum so I have no reason to be hostile. Honestly its one of the more annoying thing when I come to this forum.

EDIT: The more I think about it, it feels like you just want to remove the effect PW/PU can have on snowballing, but not remove snowballing entirely. Just reduce it enough that you can stand your ground when in a less than ideal situation. 

1.) No, but you spawn with them, too. And bodies drop them when you don't use them. The animation time won't matter with this case. If you're banking a nade off a wall to someone who can't see you/you can't see, you're still not in danger. I'd rather just have you spawn with one. And nades have to settle before blowing up, over airbursting.

OR, in an ideal world, just make them impulse nades. Again, I could take being blasted out of my position if it added some fun movement to it and didn't act as a braindead nuke. Or if a nade tossed at me in a hallway randomly just pushed me back. Could maybe even work it against your opponent. If they throw a nade and expect you to be thrown to the right from behind a pillar, jump on the nade so you're pushed to the left. Make the physics consistent based on direction so it isn't just randomly launching you anywhere. Beep. Good fix to nades being stupid.

2.) Power positions are nothing like running for power weapons/ups. The reward entirely differs. One gives you a dominant map presence that you can counter with basic gunskill (In my example of nothing existing), but power weapons boost your ability to output damage with ease of use alongside them. Map presence gives you height advantage. It isn't boosting your ability to output damage itself. So it isn't "unfair" in the sense you're just being shit on with no counter. Because you can still reshit on someone in a higher angle. 

3.) I don't have a problem with snowballing. If people dominate me in straight gunfights, and it isn't just boiling down to circumstantial shit (In this sense), I don't care if I get snowballed on. What I care about is how it occurs. Because if you're just straight up better, you're gonna be balling on people.

FINALLY, yeah, that's exactly it. You don't know me outside of this forum. No inherent reason to be hostile. Or passive aggressive. Ya just talk, get your points out, and move on. Simple. 

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2 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

1.) No, but you spawn with them, too. And bodies drop them when you don't use them. The animation time won't matter with this case. If you're banking a nade off a wall to someone who can't see you/you can't see, you're still not in danger. I'd rather just have you spawn with one. And nades have to settle before blowing up, over airbursting.

OR, in an ideal world, just make them impulse nades. Again, I could take being blasted out of my position if it added some fun movement to it and didn't act as a braindead nuke. Or if a nade tossed at me in a hallway randomly just pushed me back. Could maybe even work it against your opponent. If they throw a nade and expect you to be thrown to the right from behind a pillar, jump on the nade so you're pushed to the left. Make the physics consistent based on direction so it isn't just randomly launching you anywhere. Beep. Good fix to nades being stupid.

I'd argue that in competent/high level play grenades are used extremely often and its rare that you'll find them on a dead body. Thats why using one in such a unknown situation is the big risk. You throw it, miss, the opponent still has 1 or 2 nades up their sleeve. Its just another tool and it all depends on how you use it.

I'm not entirely opposed to an impulse grenade being introduced like in Fortnite. Sounds like something @Boyo would cook up.

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2.) Power positions are nothing like running for power weapons/ups. The reward entirely differs. One gives you a dominant map presence that you can counter with basic gunskill (In my example of nothing existing), but power weapons boost your ability to output damage with ease of use alongside them. Map presence gives you height advantage. It isn't boosting your ability to output damage itself. So it isn't "unfair" in the sense you're just being shit on with no counter. Because you can still reshit on someone in a higher angle. 

It's not just height presence, its sight lines, its controlling enemy spawns (to a point), its putting yourself in much more favorable positions. Controlling the possible outcomes in which the enemy can react to your movements. PW/PU can break up a power position, but its never a guarantee, just like sniper won't guarantee me a kill in CQC and rockets won't in a wide open spacious area. For me it just add variety to the gameplay, the possibilities of what can happen, and reacting to them.

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3.) I don't have a problem with snowballing. If people dominate me in straight gunfights, and it isn't just boiling down to circumstantial shit (In this sense), I don't care if I get snowballed on. What I care about is how it occurs. Because if you're just straight up better, you're gonna be balling on people.

FINALLY, yeah, that's exactly it. You don't know me outside of this forum. No inherent reason to be hostile. Or passive aggressive. Ya just talk, get your points out, and move on. Simple. 

I mean this whole thing is mostly a subjective opinion of fun, but honestly.

Watching montages like Office Hyena, Skols, ZRTROOKIO, Evader, or even the older stuff like It Was Luck, Rippon, Gunshot. Watching and competing in tournaments over the years MLG, HCS, AGL, Grassroots, Dreamhack, etc. Stuff like that is why I play Halo, it motivates me to want to hit a clip like them, to be able to play at such a high level. Watching and playing in H2A no PU/PW with reduced grenades off spawn just isn't it. There is no motivational factor there even if it did have a ranking system. Single Halo Clips would be lined up with so many similar clips and montages would be too. It removes a lot of what Halo is and its identity even if its not perfect.

 

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