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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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4 hours ago, Apoll0 said:

Sorry, double post (how do you edit and move a quote into an existing post around these parts...).

In the old version of this site, you could see just how it worked. Without spaces, [ quote ] paste text here [ / quote ] makes a quote box. You add name = “ Boyo” to get it to tag him, but I can’t remember. And there is also a timestamp value.

Here is what it looks like for an old post I was responding to: [ quote name="Apoll0" post="1033441" timestamp="1532283330" ] blah blah blah [ / quote ]

 

Good post. 2 main things i would like to respond to.

 

1) one of the reasons I argue for the 1 - 1.2 second kill time is because of my experience in Halo 5.  The issue in H5 with escapability really comes from thrust and sprint, not the kill time.  If you get first shot and don't miss and the other guy doesn't thrust and sprint away, he's not going to get away at base movement speed.  If they are hugging corners and sticking to cover like glue then obviously they can, but that's true with any kill time longer than 0. 

 

This next part is very subjective so take that for what you will but one of the reasons that i love halo is because even in a fair, 1v1 perfect fight you are guaranteed a longer engagement than the numerous CoD-esque shooters of the world.  I would like even perfect engagements to be as long as possible without causing an overemphasis on teamshot or escapability problems (like every hero shooter on the planet).  I have also stuck with the 1 - 1.2 second kill time because when I compare the CE and H5 fire rates to say the H2 BR fire rate, i like the H2 BR fire rate better. But i also like to be able to string together engagements instead of spending a ton of time on just one, inviting too much teamshot, something that in the absence of button glitches was a problem with H2.  This is also why I have usually been qualifying my responses with "1 - 1.2 seconds".  I know i want a 4 shot primary, i know i want kill times longer than CE, i know i want a fire rate a little slower than CE but faster than H2/3/Reach, and i know that magnum battles in H5 absent of abilities and sprint feel really fucking good, if  a bit spammy at times.  All that together = 1 - 1.2 second 4-shot, but with a wider perfect/max TTK so you're not always ending your engagements close to death and can move to the next one immediately.  If i loved the CE or H5 magnum fire rate, i would probably agree with you and extend my "wish list" kill time to fall somewhere between .9 and 1.2 seconds.

 

Also, correct me if i'm wrong here but i believe the math for fire rate would be (Perfect Kill Time in Seconds)/(Shots for Perfect Kill - 1), since its the first shot that starts the clock at 0 so you don't count that when dividing.  Been a long time since i have done anything besides money math...

 

H1 magnum = 0.6/(3-1) = .3 s/shot

H2 BR = 1.4/(4-1) = .46

H3 BR = 1.5/(4-1) = .5

Reach DMR = 1.6/(5-1) = .4

H5 Magnum = 1.2/(5-1) = .3

 

What this chart tells me is that i need to go play some zero bloom reach to see how the DMR feels since its possible that the burst-nature of the BR makes it feel a little different and the Reach DMR fire rate (or a little quicker) is about what I would be shooting for but 4 shot kill instead of 5.  

 

2) My comment about having a skill gap so high with the weapon that it would end up raising the skill floor is really only meant for extreme examples.  Like 0 aim assist, slow projectile with small hitboxes using a controller.  That experience on a console would be considered by some to be the "Most skillful" with the widest skill gap, but its really to such an extreme that playing with a controller would be terribly un-fun.  I totally agree that balancing weapons based in large part on their difficulty is the way to go but if you go too extreme with it, it just becomes a chore and un-fun to use with controller.  Also in my reply here i purposefully didn't list bullet magnetism because i dont see the need for it.  Bullets shouldn't bend toward a target just because "you were close",  unless the tracking of targets is a specific feature of that specific weapon in which case the projectile needs to be slow and the damage relatively low.

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

Montage kids love it and people who are too bad at timing weapons to ever get a sniper, that's about it. It's a fun niche gametype, but we don't have ranked Griffball either.

Lol.

45 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

party modes like Snipers, Swat, BtB, or H4 ranked.  

One of these things is not like the other.

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

What do you mean by out of ranked? Did the Slayer kids win and get objective removed from H3 Arena? Besides that, thank you for continuing to fix these awful settings we've been playing for over a decade. 15 second flag return times on small maps just should not be a thing.

It may not have actually happened yet, but it's definitely coming, likely on Wednesday. And honestly, given how trash H3 obj settings are, it's not a big loss.  Duck seems open to revising them and putting them in Match Composer. Maybe once they're in the wild in their new form, we'll get some feedback and see if people want to add them back into ranked.

Your average twitter/reddit commenter hates objective, but they're probably thinking about H3 obj when they say that, and H3 has horrendous obj MM settings. For some reason these people don't draw a distinction between hating King of the Hill as a whole, and hating what is specifically making it bad. That lack of discretionary taste makes me skeptical that they'll even notice the differences, and therefore skeptical that they'll have much support to return to ranked.  Either way, H3's obj has needed an overhaul for 12 years. I'm glad we're finally f'n doing it.

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3 hours ago, Hard Way said:

It may not have actually happened yet, but it's definitely coming, likely on Wednesday. And honestly, given how trash H3 obj settings are, it's not a big loss.  Duck seems open to revising them and putting them in Match Composer. Maybe once they're in the wild in their new form, we'll get some feedback and see if people want to add them back into ranked.

Your average twitter/reddit commenter hates objective, but they're probably thinking about H3 obj when they say that, and H3 has horrendous obj MM settings. For some reason these people don't draw a distinction between hating King of the Hill as a whole, and hating what is specifically making it bad. That lack of discretionary taste makes me skeptical that they'll even notice the differences, and therefore skeptical that they'll have much support to return to ranked.  Either way, H3's obj has needed an overhaul for 12 years. I'm glad we're finally f'n doing it.

It’s not like they’re smart individuals, like you said they’re not realizing what’s making KOTH bad, and not the mode itself. They’re not capable of realizing the details or changes. To this day I’ll play many games that get a TU or some patch and there’ll be that guy who didn’t read the patch notes and say “I didn’t realize they changed said gun, mechanic, etc when it should be clearly obvious. 

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7 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Lol.

One of these things is not like the other.

Yeah, Three of them suck and the other is BTB. 

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15 hours ago, Boyo said:

You would think that since the competitive community gets shit on by the majority of the playerbase, that you of all people would have respect for other communities like SWAT or Snipers.  But you turn around and shit on them.  Your stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

the regular playlists dont have enough people to support em to max rank, a niche playlist isn't going to have enough no matter what. it has nothing to do with shitting on any community. 

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17 hours ago, Boyo said:

You would think that since the competitive community gets shit on by the majority of the playerbase, that you of all people would have respect for other communities like SWAT or Snipers.  But you turn around and shit on them.  Your stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

If people really want to play SWAT I don't care, but it doesn't need to be ranked. It was a gametype people made in Halo 2 to get easy multikills.

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12 minutes ago, Jake Teh Nub said:

If people really want to play SWAT I don't care, but it doesn't need to be ranked. It was a gametype people made in Halo 2 to get easy multikills.

And in Halo Reach, SWAT became a legitimately competitive gametype.  Sprint and Bloom both worked very well in a one shot kill gametype.

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10 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Lol.

One of these things is not like the other.

Hah, wasn't a jab at you. I just know from experience people always fight for the sniper and if they don't get it they betray, rage down the mic and quit. Team Snipers allows them to skip that and just go straight to working on their sick noscope montages.

10 hours ago, Hard Way said:

It may not have actually happened yet, but it's definitely coming, likely on Wednesday. And honestly, given how trash H3 obj settings are, it's not a big loss.  Duck seems open to revising them and putting them in Match Composer. Maybe once they're in the wild in their new form, we'll get some feedback and see if people want to add them back into ranked.

Your average twitter/reddit commenter hates objective, but they're probably thinking about H3 obj when they say that, and H3 has horrendous obj MM settings. For some reason these people don't draw a distinction between hating King of the Hill as a whole, and hating what is specifically making it bad. That lack of discretionary taste makes me skeptical that they'll even notice the differences, and therefore skeptical that they'll have much support to return to ranked.  Either way, H3's obj has needed an overhaul for 12 years. I'm glad we're finally f'n doing it.

Man that's just stupid and disheartening. They should've collected feedback and fix them in the next update instead of removing them, setting the fucking stupid precedent of "onLy SlAyEr iS CoMpEtiTiVe" and then re-adding them.  Some of the settings were ass but none of the objective gametypes were completely broken (like H2A's score limit and return time shenanigans lol) and stuff like 1 Flag / Bomb and CTF on Narrows/Pit was a blast to play. I really really hope these get fixed and put back into Team Arena (that was one of the best things 343 did hands down) and the Match Composer because objective is all I play nowadays given that 1) I can 2) Slayer can still get you AR starts and 3) Slayer is fucking boring.

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Ranked Slayer is for people who could not possibly fit any more information in their head after memorizing power weapon spawns, and Halo 5 does that shit for you. 

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21 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Keep it civil please. We're at the tipping point...

No

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In defense of those that wanted H3 Arena to go TS only, 

1. The obj settings are shit

2. The party matching gives a massive advantage to to3's.

The line of thinking was that solo's and duo's have a better chance against to3's in TS, and they're not wrong. That said, it's likely we'll see a change to H3 Arena soon that will only match to3's against to3's and to4's. With that in place, and some refined obj settings, hopefully we can make that playlist fulfill its potential soon.

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16 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

That said, it's likely we'll see a change to H3 Arena soon that will only match to3's against to3's and to4's. With that in place, and some refined obj settings, hopefully we can make that playlist fulfill its potential soon. 

Doing gods work.

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17 hours ago, Basu said:

Hah, wasn't a jab at you. I just know from experience people always fight for the sniper and if they don't get it they betray, rage down the mic and quit. Team Snipers allows them to skip that and just go straight to working on their sick noscope montages

Wasn't treating it like a jab. I'm just wondering to this day whether or not timing is a skill or not, lol.

18 hours ago, Boyo said:

And in Halo Reach, SWAT became a legitimately competitive gametype.  Sprint and Bloom both worked very well in a one shot kill gametype.

Excuse me, lmao. How the fuck does random bloom help a gametype with a one shot gun.

What about SWAT as a gametype is competitive. 

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In a one shot kill gametype, missing shots makes your gun less accurate.  That is how it helps.  Bloom punishes players who miss shots.

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

In a one shot kill gametype, missing shots makes your gun less accurate.  That is how it helps.  Bloom punishes players who miss shots.

So, rather than decreasing AA/bullet magnetism, you'd introduce random weapon bloom to counteract the game's one shot nature. Pretty counterproductive, dude.

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5 minutes ago, Boyo said:

In a one shot kill gametype, missing shots makes your gun less accurate.  That is how it helps.  Bloom punishes players who miss shots.

No.

 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually agree with IcePrincess on this one.

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What other way is there to punish players who miss shots in a one shot kill gametype?

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If you like bloom you like bad game mechanics, punish them by them losing not with some b.s.

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8 minutes ago, Boyo said:

In a one shot kill gametype, missing shots makes your gun less accurate.  That is how it helps.  Bloom punishes players who miss shots.

For the first shot. But after the first shot, it gets even more random. Instead of having the full shield health to basically "Spread the risk" of the random spread and (hopefully) give the better player more time to be more accurate and win the fight, the very next random headshot wins.

 

Edit:  The way to punish players that miss the first shot is to simply have fair hitboxes, minimal bullet magnetism and aim assist and use a projectile weapon. ie. generic good weapon design with an overlay of randomness.

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

What other way is there to punish players who miss shots in a one shot kill gametype?

Well they probably die because its a one shot gametype for fucks sake, and then if both players miss the last thing you need to implement is an element of randomness.

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Just now, Apoll0 said:

For the first shot. But after the first shot, it gets even more random. Instead of having the full shield health to basically "Spread the risk" of the random spread and (hopefully) give the better player more time to be more accurate and win the fight, the very next random headshot wins.

The time it takes to line up a second kill is usually enough for bloom to fully reset.  In SWAT, bloom only punishes players who make mistakes.

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12 hours ago, Vyrst said:

No

jxAWHjK.gif

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8 minutes ago, Boyo said:

The time it takes to line up a second kill is usually enough for bloom to fully reset.  In SWAT, bloom only punishes players who make mistakes.

"Usually enough time for bloom to fully reset".  That doesn't actually make any sense.  Player A and player B both shoot at each other and miss the head. Player A starts spamming away while aiming at your nuts.  Player B waits for bloom to reset and carefully aims at the head.  Right as player B is about to pull the trigger, the second shot from Player A, centered on B's balls, randomly blooms north and hits him in the forehead.  

That kind of shit happens in vanilla Reach all the time.  Its frustrating as fuck.  How about we just have a 100% accurate, max firerate and the first player to get the reticle on the head and pull the trigger wins?

 

You don't have to purposefully try to punish worse players.  Let the game be fair based on their individual skill with aiming the weapon 100% of the time, and the rest will sort itself out.

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