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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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2 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

If a veto system is in place, then there needs to be weighting in each lobby player's past maps/gametypes. If one map or gametype is overplayed for the players that have matched up, then it falls off the list and they have to choose from other combinations. 

This could probably easily be implemented given that H5 already has such a system. At the same time though, this is such a non-issue that it blows my mind that people REEE at Menke on Waypoint just because they played a certain gametype twice in a row. It's a little boring but not the end of the world and I don't understand the attitude that the developer has to somehow make sure this NEVER happens.

As to your point that this might result in good gametypes getting vetoed and therefore flagged as "bad", wouldn't this just even out across all the available map/gametypes? It would hurt the significance level when comparing gametypes sure, because they would all have a certain baseline level of vetoes, but then again this exist already given that some people will always dislike certain maps/gametypes no matter how objectively good they are. Plus, comparing #of vetoes is still way better than looking at shit statistics like quit rates and listening to Pro feedback or even worse Waypoint/reddit's opinion on the matter.

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50 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

If the developer is too inept to put map/gametype combinations into rotation that don't suck ass, then this whole conversation is a non-starter because we have to work that issue out firstly and separately. 

The idea is to let the veto system clue developers in on "less desired" gametypes. Not "complete and utter abortion" gametypes. 

Yeah but a lot of the times as history has given us with this company, there's not just like one bad map, there's always several. They kept Snowbound, Orbital, and Epitaph (for example) and the like in rotation for all the playlist they applied to for pretty much the duration of the game -- and on top of that there are actually people who thoroughly enjoy the Snowbound AR start just as much as people loved Armor Lock camping on top of Sword Base for whatever reason; hence why they never removed them. If we reduce the amount of times "good" map/gametypes occur based on how much we veto the bad types of combinations, eventually you'll get to the point during your session where it's nothing but a pool of horrid map/gametype combinations.

However, I will agree that the veto system should be stat tracked and monitored in some sort of database. I've reiterated this sentiment dozens of times during our Halo 3 era, because I was willing to bit my limbs that above level 30, anything AR start was vetoed almost instantly except by a choice few teams who loved to pick those gametypes for a cheese strategy -- Which were very few and far between.

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36 minutes ago, Basu said:

This could probably easily be implemented given that H5 already has such a system. At the same time though, this is such a non-issue that it blows my mind that people REEE at Menke on Waypoint just because they played a certain gametype twice in a row. It's a little boring but not the end of the world and I don't understand the attitude that the developer has to somehow make sure this NEVER happens.

As to your point that this might result in good gametypes getting vetoed and therefore flagged as "bad", wouldn't this just even out across all the available map/gametypes? It would hurt the significance level when comparing gametypes sure, because they would all have a certain baseline level of vetoes, but then again this exist already given that some people will always dislike certain maps/gametypes no matter how objectively good they are. Plus, comparing #of vetoes is still way better than looking at shit statistics like quit rates and listening to Pro feedback or even worse Waypoint/reddit's opinion on the matter.

The system will never be flawless. But if the central point of disagreement is that "playing Heretic five times in a row is better than playing Orbital once", then I don't see why the solution doesn't start with "nuke Orbital completely" rather than implement a matchmaking system that doesn't rotate all available gametypes in somewhat evenly. However, if my choices in H2 are Sanc Flag, Middy Slayer, Lockout Ball, and Creek KOTH - all extremely functional map/gametype combos - and I end up playing Middy Slayer five times in a row because kids only want to play a slayer gametype where they don't have to think, then something is wrong with the system. 

7 minutes ago, -DeucEy- said:

Yeah but a lot of the times as history has given us with this company, there's not just like one bad map, there's always several. They kept Snowbound, Orbital, and Epitaph (for example) and the like in rotation for all the playlist they applied to for pretty much the duration of the game -- and on top of that there are actually people who thoroughly enjoy the Snowbound AR start just as much as people loved Armor Lock camping on top of Sword Base for whatever reason; hence why they never removed them. If we reduce the amount of times "good" map/gametypes occur based on how much we veto the bad types of combinations, eventually you'll get to the point during your session where it's nothing but a pool of horrid map/gametype combinations.

However, I will agree that the veto system should be stat tracked and monitored in some sort of database. I've reiterated this sentiment dozens of times during our Halo 3 era, because I was willing to bit my limbs that above level 30, anything AR start was vetoed almost instantly except by a choice few teams who loved to pick those gametypes for a cheese strategy -- Which were very few and far between.

That's just one more argument for the separation of social and ranked playlists. Let the bad kids play their bad kid gametypes where there are no stakes.

It's also an argument for a new developer. Heyoooo. 

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50 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

The system will never be flawless. But if the central point of disagreement is that "playing Heretic five times in a row is better than playing Orbital once", then I don't see why the solution doesn't start with "nuke Orbital completely" rather than implement a matchmaking system that doesn't rotate all available gametypes in somewhat evenly. However, if my choices in H2 are Sanc Flag, Middy Slayer, Lockout Ball, and Creek KOTH - all extremely functional map/gametype combos - and I end up playing Middy Slayer five times in a row because kids only want to play a slayer gametype where they don't have to think, then something is wrong with the system.

Ok I see your point. Thing is there are always gametypes that seem good on paper but without rigorous testing (which historically has rarely been a thing outside of MLG settings) there are always sub-par gametypes that make it into MM that people just don't want to play. So while I agree that "nuke Orbital" is the way to go, not every map and map/gametype combo is so terrible that you know from the start that it's gonna be ass. Especially if Infinite has an actually big map and gametype pool (good one I know) Team Arena could end up having tons and tons of map/gametype combos in Team Arena and it would certainly help separate the Middies from Foundations if veto stats were a thing.

And I fully agree with you that it should actually rotate through all gametypes equally and we need to stop favoring Team Slayer so none of this "objective gametypes always skipped on veto" nonsense. The "FuCk ObjeCtiVe" crowd somehow continues to exists after all these years and people are actually complaining that the H3 Arena playlist in MCC isn't Slayer only. The autism is unbelievable yet real so I can def see your point that this could potentially result in the scenario you described.

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I would add that if someone wants to play specific gametypes with that much frequency...well bucko, that's what customs are for. 

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On 7/6/2019 at 4:12 PM, Apoll0 said:

The uncertainty of what the next gametype could be means that by default, people tend to not veto things that are at least OK, increasing variety.  While nobody wants to play shit, you should play things that are "Meh" every once in a while.  Variety for variety's sake is a good thing. It allows the really good shit to never get stale.

Hmm. AR and SMG starts are always fun to get for the sake of variety. I don't always wanna play BR starts. Gets stale a lot of the time. Totally a good thing to get ARs. Totally. Not bad. At all.

By that, I mean, variety for the sake of variety isn't good as an argument. It's all emotional. Because I could just turn around and say "the good shit never gets stale because it's good". I would rather play just Coli, Fathom, Truth CTF, or Guardian, Midship, Pit shit on Halo 3 and 5 than have any of the surrounding garbage the games shovel out. Because they're actually good. Quality over quantity. I don't give a shit about variety when the variety sucks pure dick. If anything, I get more annoyed I have to deal with bullshit and the good stuff is in the minority.

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I'd rather play 3 A's and 4 B's than just 3 A's forever. I think most people would agree.  As long as the slightly less good stuff is weighted lower, I'm fine with it. But if it's actually bad, then it needs to go.  The definition of actually bad will vary from person to person, but veto stats don't lie.

That said, if the map/gametype pool became trimmed so tightly that there were no bad gametypes, eventually the veto system would start making good gametypes look bad, because people would veto them to get a great gametype.  There needs to be an end at some point or we'll be left with another H2A type situation where you play 3 maps.  Look no further than the H3 or Reach MLG playlist. Stuff like Guardian Ball or Nexus KotH hardly ever got voted for, even though they're really fun, bc people wanna play Pit TS for the millionth time.

We can cross that bridge when we come to it though. That would be a fantastic problem to have. Ideally the game would launch with every gametype on every map, and veto would be used to cull playlists in the first 6 months. But once we figure out what's at least good, I'd prefer random selection with a heavier weight on whatever map/gametype it's been the longest since you've played.

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Sorry to double post, but I finally got to meet @SMARTAN 427 today! He was one of my first Youtube subscribers way back in 2013, and gave me support when I needed it most. He came over to my place to play some OG CE 2v2's for his first time on LAN. We had some awesome games and it was great to meet in person :)

I think my favorite part was teaming with him in his first few games, and him shooting the pistol on host for the first time and hitting FOUR TSK's in row. He was like, "So this is what it's supposed to feel like!" No overshooting or anything. Just 12 bullets and 4 kills. After dealing with so much MCC bs, I was glad I got to be there when he got to play the real thing.

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11 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

I'd rather play 3 A's and 4 B's than just 3 A's forever. I think most people would agree.  As long as the slightly less good stuff is weighted lower, I'm fine with it. But if it's actually bad, then it needs to go.  The definition of actually bad will vary from person to person, but veto stats don't lie.

That said, if the map/gametype pool became trimmed so tightly that there were no bad gametypes, eventually the veto system would start making good gametypes look bad, because people would veto them to get a great gametype.  There needs to be an end at some point or we'll be left with another H2A type situation where you play 3 maps.  Look no further than the H3 or Reach MLG playlist. Stuff like Guardian Ball or Nexus KotH hardly ever got voted for, even though they're really fun, bc people wanna play Pit TS for the millionth time.

We can cross that bridge when we come to it though. That would be a fantastic problem to have. Ideally the game would launch with every gametype on every map, and veto would be used to cull playlists in the first 6 months. But once we figure out what's at least good, I'd prefer random selection with a heavier weight on whatever map/gametype it's been the longest since you've played.

I agree, this would be one of those "good" problems. In the Halo 2 Hardcore playlist on MCC, me and my team literally never voted for a game because EVERY gametype is extremely fun to play and it didn't matter which gametype the other team wanted to play; which I believe is the crux of the concept @Cursed Lemon was alluding to. We could just play games and enjoy ourselves in the competitive mindset we set out for. We were only forced to start voting when Halo 3 invaded the playlist.

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3 minutes ago, -DeucEy- said:

I agree, this would be one of those "good" problems. In the Halo 2 Hardcore playlist on MCC, me and my team literally never voted for a game because EVERY gametype is extremely fun to play and it didn't matter which gametype the other team wanted to play; which I believe is the crux of the concept @Cursed Lemon was alluding to. We could just play games and enjoy ourselves in the competitive mindset we set out for. We were only forced to start voting when Halo 3 invaded the playlist.

Yep. 

The point is that all the gametypes in the playlist (i.e. and in our case, a competitive/ranked playlist) are viable and none of them are groaners, much less quit-worthy. Then simple weighting could allow for people to play gametypes that they haven't played in a while, ensuring that the experience is always fresh and rounded. 

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39 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

There needs to be an end at some point or we'll be left with another H2A type situation where you play 3 maps. 

Not really a bad scenario, lol. H2A is optimal. 3 welcome maps on generally good gametypes. Again, I don't really want the garbage in there if I HAVE the good shit. There should really be no reason to have it. Of course this dives more so into "remove X shit", but I just want some good stuff to play, lol. I don't wanna settle for less.

29 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

I think my favorite part was teaming with him in his first few games, and him shooting the pistol on host for the first time and hitting FOUR TSK's in row. He was like, "So this is what it's supposed to feel like!" No overshooting or anything. Just 12 bullets and 4 kills. After dealing with so much MCC bs, I was glad I got to be there when he got to play the real thing.

Is the pistol really that hard, then? 

5 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I would add that if someone wants to play specific gametypes with that much frequency...well bucko, that's what customs are for. 

Yeah, if only people would play. Was hard as dicks trying to get them going with optimal population. Can tell you from experience people don't want to play customs, let alone with refined gametypes/settings.

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18 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, if only people would play. Was hard as dicks trying to get them going with optimal population. Can tell you from experience people don't want to play customs, let alone with refined gametypes/settings.

This is a culture problem that's resulted from Halo trying to be something that it isn't for years - other shooting games never had an emphasis on custom lobbies at all, much less to the degree that Halo did, and what you're seeing today is the result of Halo trying to pander to other shooters' crowds that never went in on that concept. 

Also the population drop, obviously. 

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Custom games died starting with Reach because people wanted to play MM so they could play dressup with their Spartan and get useless XP.

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My Spartan looked damn good too.

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

 

Is the pistol really that hard, then? 

 

There is a reason why 4 TSKs in a row is worth mentioning.

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In my experience, the people who would either veto or not vote for non-objective gametypes are also the people who don't play that often and just want to run and gun. Objective gametypes of course have a bit of learning curve compared to slayer, making slayer the preferred option of noobs everywhere.

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3 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Not really a bad scenario, lol. H2A is optimal. 3 welcome maps on generally good gametypes. Again, I don't really want the garbage in there if I HAVE the good shit. There should really be no reason to have it. Of course this dives more so into "remove X shit", but I just want some good stuff to play, lol. I don't wanna settle for less.

Is the pistol really that hard, then? 

You're in the minority there. People want more than 3 maps. Sorry.

And obvious bait is obvious.

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9 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Not really a bad scenario, lol. H2A is optimal. 3 welcome maps on generally good gametypes. Again, I don't really want the garbage in there if I HAVE the good shit. There should really be no reason to have it. Of course this dives more so into "remove X shit", but I just want some good stuff to play, lol. I don't wanna settle for less.

If everything outside those 3 maps are shit, sure. But if there are other viable maps, why would we exclude those? More so, why is 3 the optimal number of maps then? Why not just spend all dev time creating 1 perfect map so there are no more variables. 

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7 hours ago, OG Nick said:

There is a reason why 4 TSKs in a row is worth mentioning.

Arguably, but I'm just saying, if the same Smartan who played with us in Evolved and MCC later can get 4 TSKs in a row in CE, is the pistol really that hard. We all know how the dude played with an "easier" pistol. Let alone the fact this was his first LAN, and he's doing this. With the self-proclaimed hardest weapon in the series. In one of the hardest games in the series.

5 hours ago, Hard Way said:

You're in the minority there. People want more than 3 maps. Sorry.

Except I'm not saying we need just 3 maps. Or that I want just 3 maps. But if only 3 maps happen to be good (More often than not, given Halo.) I'd rather just play those in comp than any garbage that arises alongside it. If 7 maps happen to be good, that's great too. I only want the good stuff in HCS. If it happens to be relegated to one gametype/map, okay. If it happens to be sixteen? Okay-dokay. As long as it's good.

2 minutes ago, JordanB said:

If everything outside those 3 maps are shit, sure. But if there are other viable maps, why would we exclude those? More so, why is 3 the optimal number of maps then? Why not just spend all dev time creating 1 perfect map so there are no more variables. 

I didn't say 3 was optimal. I just said H2A was optimal because it's one of the few, if not only Halo games that doesn't have a shit map to play on in its comp lineup. It just happens to have 3. Could have 7 god-tier maps. Could have 2. Could have 1. As long as I'm really only playing the good, truly viable shit. And not garbage.

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27 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Arguably, but I'm just saying, if the same Smartan who played with us in Evolved and MCC later can get 4 TSKs in a row in CE, is the pistol really that hard. We all know how the dude played with an "easier" pistol. Let alone the fact this was his first LAN, and he's doing this. With the self-proclaimed hardest weapon in the series. In one of the hardest games in the series.

Pretty shitty thing to say about someone that doesn’t deserve it, especially when you have no context. Sounds like you’re just reaching to me. But if you’re that curious, I’d suggest you simply try it for yourself sometime.

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2 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Pretty shitty thing to say about someone that doesn’t deserve it, especially when you have no context. Sounds like you’re just reaching to me. But if you’re that curious, I’d suggest you simply try it for yourself sometime.

I'm not just kicking a dude for no reason, I'm just saying he was nowhere near the best player in Evolved. Thus, I'm just questioning how someone who obviously isn't a god at the game can suddenly quad-3 people. In a row. Without missing a shot. On the "hardest" game. With the "hardest" utility. Getting a back to back perfect kill is something I personally find to be a big deal with an easier pistol in Halo 5, let alone four perfies. Again, in a row. Without missing a shot, or shooting past three shots. Just hilariously skeptical the game's actually hard if someone of his caliber can do that in his first LAN. Of course, the LAN group could just be bad and somehow enable this, on top of the prior points.

Don't need to try it, either. Have already played it. Game's of no interest to me. 

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I wish I could be this proud of being good at Halo 5 customs and feel the need to somehow shoehorn it into every argument.

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17 minutes ago, Basu said:

I wish I could be this proud of being good at Halo 5 customs and feel the need to somehow shoehorn it into every argument.

Well, good thing I never brought up my skill at any point, lol.

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Would an average sized rowboat support your skill without capsizing?

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