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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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6 minutes ago, TI Inspire said:

There are some particularities with Reach that make me hesitant to endorse TU over vanilla.

Basically...

  1. In Reach gametypes with bloom, crouching reduces its effect. In TU, crouch shooting is very common because bloom is essentially nonexistent while crouching. As a result, the meta for high-levelish games on TU settings heavily incorporates strats involving when and where to do this. In case your wondering, it's not particularly fun to execute or go against. Vanilla mostly alleviates this by making crouch shooting not valuable enough to use frequently.
  2. You lose the ability to parry sword attacks on TU settings. For claustrophobic maps with Energy Swords and sprint, this is unideal.
  3. In vanilla, believe it or not, pacing your shots (provided that you can aim at a high level of proficiency) is actually viable at most ranges. Some weapons, like the Magnum, are almost unusable beyond near point blank range unless you are willing to pace your shots. In TU OTOH, incentives for pacing are heavily reduced with bloom's reduction, encouraging the sort of spamming that made Reach feel so random to most players.

FYI:

Pacing is when you when you wait for the reticle to shrink back to normal size before shooting again, spamming is when you shoot as quickly as the game allows. Some posters may not like the usage of these terms due to their opposition of bloom as a mechanic, believing that their habits to shoot as quickly as possible should not be punished as a matter of principle for their preference of faster killing and always accurate utilities. I don't fundamentally disagree with these views, but it should be noted that the usage of these terms is wholly necessary to explain how bloom works within Reach.

For clips to demonstrate what I'm talking about what regard to the viability of pacing in Reach's vanilla settings, look at the clips below.

https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/ti-inspire/video/74101798

https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/ti-inspire/video/73579578

In the first clip, starting from 0:16, I hit a clean 5 shot out of scope from a very long distance while appropriately pacing. Obviously, this a more impressive example of what I am talking about, hence why i clipped it. But it should be made clear that pacing is entirely viable in Reach. The second clip is a more practical example of my play style.

I still play Reach pretty frequently, so I felt the need to express my concerns here.

I'm failing to see why someone wouldn't apply the crouch strat in Vanilla vs TU. Its providing you with an advantage either way as it reduced bloom in Vanilla does it not?

I don't really have a convincing argument for sword blocking. I never liked it, but I've never heard a compelling reason to keep it either. 

For me the your 5 shot just validates my distaste for 100% bloom. The first shot hits outside of the original range of the reticule because of the bloom expanding beyond those original bounds. Had it gone any other direction you would have missed and there is absolutely no way to control that. You would have lost the battle on chance alone. 75% bloom doesn't fix this issue, but it makes it a lot less likely to happen. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I'm failing to see why someone wouldn't apply the crouch strat in Vanilla vs TU. Its providing you with an advantage either way as it reduced bloom in Vanilla does it not?

I don't really have a convincing argument for sword blocking. I never liked it, but I've never heard a compelling reason to keep it either. 

For me the your 5 shot just validates my distaste for 100% bloom. The first shot hits outside of the original range of the reticule because of the bloom expanding beyond those original bounds. Had it gone any other direction you would have missed and there is absolutely no way to control that. You would have lost the battle on chance alone. 75% bloom doesn't fix this issue, but it makes it a lot less likely to happen. 

 

The crouch strat in vanilla still reduces bloom, but because it doesn't nullify it entirely, its less potent and therefore less utilized than in TU. Trust me, I'm right about this.

Sprint makes the sword insanely powerful, and sword blocking somewhat mitigates the problem. Removing it in TU was a bad decision because it left the Energy Sword in an incredibly powerful state with sprint and very limited counterplay.

With regards to your comment on my 5 shot. You clearly don't understand how bloom works (edit: I don't mean to be mean here). The bloom only takes effect after the shot is fired; the first shot I fired was not in any way affected by bloom. If you slow down the first clip (there is an option to slow it down to 0.25x btw), you'll see that for my first shot, the center of my reticle was over the side of the player which is why I got a body shot. The last shot was a little weird, but I still got it because the edge of center circle of the reticle was touching the other player's head.

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24 minutes ago, TI Inspire said:

The crouch strat in vanilla still reduces bloom, but because it doesn't nullify it entirely, its less potent and therefore less utilized than in TU. Trust me, I'm right about this.

Sprint makes the sword insanely powerful, and sword blocking somewhat mitigates the problem. Removing it in TU was a bad decision because it left the Energy Sword in an incredibly powerful state with sprint and very limited counterplay.

With regards to your comment on my 5 shot. You clearly don't understand how bloom works. The bloom only takes effect after the shot is fired; the first shot I fired was not in any way affected by bloom. If you slow down the first clip (there is an option to slow it down to 0.25x btw), you'll see that for my first shot, the center of my reticle was over the side of the player which is why I got a body shot. The last shot was a little weird, but I still got it because the edge of center circle of the reticle was touching the other player's head.

I'm sure you more than likely have played a lot more Reach than I have, but speaking from personal experiences I never really was matched with a team that utilized crouch shooting and recognized those players as "good" or even winning the match most of the time. I definitely could see it being more prevalent in something like BTB or on larger maps, but I mostly stuck to Team Slayer, Arena, MLG, etc. 4v4 matches.

Again thats not a super compelling argument for keeping it. There isn't a counter for a lot of power weapons. Double pummels are just as bad as a sword with sprint to me.

I'm fully willing to admit that I don't know exactly how bloom works. I did indeed slow down the clip to .25x before I made that response. Between the 30fps and the quality of the clip is not extremely easy to flip between frames without downloading it (I'm at work and I can't). The frame I land before the first shot is fired is your reticule is off to the right with the left edges of your reticule barley touching the spartan. In the next frame I can stop at the reticule is over the spartan, the DMR has the muzzle flash, the inner reticule has expanded beyond the dimmer blue circle in the middle and the shot (as far as visually) hits outside of the dim blue circle. 

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Crouch shooting is admittedly more of a fringe strat even in TU settings, but I have seen it used to great effectiveness by some very good players.

The sword with sprint is dumb, TU makes it dumber. I'll just leave it at that.

The compression is unfavorable in my first clip, and getting it paused at the proper frame is potentially tricky, but I did legitimately hit that first shot.

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8 minutes ago, TI Inspire said:

The compression is unfavorable in my first clip, and getting it paused at the proper frame is potentially tricky, but I did legitimately hit that first shot.

That's fine. I'll take your word for it either way that's how bloom works. 

I feel like most people on this forum understand that pacing will win you most battles. That doesn't eliminate randomness from the battles and how common of an occurrence that spammers were winning battles on smaller maps (even if it wasn't majority of the time) was frustrating enough that you lost a battle completely by chance. 

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One problem TU brought was it didn’t buff any other weapons. This is one complaint I’ve seen people(SCRUBS) talk about because the autos weren’t changed. You know this is why I was cool with the h4 sandbox. The autos were strong but my precision weapon was stronger, and because I’m a skilled player it’s even more powerful. I know some of y’all think it’s a big deal how an auto user can leave you half shields but y’all need to stfu.

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7 minutes ago, Nokt said:

That's fine. I'll take your word for it either way that's how bloom works. 

I feel like most people on this forum understand that pacing will win you most battles. That doesn't eliminate randomness from the battles and how common of an occurrence that spammers were winning battles on smaller maps (even if it wasn't majority of the time) was frustrating enough that you lost a battle completely by chance. 

That's fair, bloom does have some fundamental issues as a mechanic. I've lost some completely ridiculous fights where the other player got extremely lucky.

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2 hours ago, TI Inspire said:

There are some particularities with Reach that make me hesitant to endorse TU over vanilla.

Basically...

  1. In Reach gametypes with bloom, crouching reduces its effect. In TU, crouch shooting is very common because bloom is essentially nonexistent while crouching. As a result, the meta for high-levelish games on TU settings heavily incorporates strats involving when and where to do this. In case your wondering, it's not particularly fun to execute or go against. Vanilla mostly alleviates this by making crouch shooting not valuable enough to use frequently.
  2. You lose the ability to parry sword attacks on TU settings. For claustrophobic maps with Energy Swords and sprint, this is unideal.
  3. In vanilla, believe it or not, pacing your shots (provided that you can aim at a high level of proficiency) is actually viable at most ranges. Some weapons, like the Magnum, are almost unusable beyond near point blank range unless you are willing to pace your shots. In TU OTOH, incentives for pacing are heavily reduced with bloom's reduction, encouraging the sort of spamming that made Reach feel so random to most players.

FYI:

Pacing is when you when you wait for the reticle to shrink back to normal size before shooting again, spamming is when you shoot as quickly as the game allows. Some posters may not like the usage of these terms due to their opposition of bloom as a mechanic, believing that their habits to shoot as quickly as possible should not be punished as a matter of principle for their preference of faster killing and always accurate utilities. I don't fundamentally disagree with these views, but it should be noted that the usage of these terms is wholly necessary to explain how bloom works within Reach.

For clips to demonstrate what I'm talking about what regard to the viability of pacing in Reach's vanilla settings, look at the clips below.

https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/ti-inspire/video/74101798

https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/ti-inspire/video/73579578

In the first clip, starting from 0:16, I hit a clean 5 shot out of scope from a very long distance while appropriately pacing. Obviously, this a more impressive example of what I am talking about, hence why i clipped it. But it should be made clear that pacing is entirely viable in Reach. The second clip is a more practical example of my play style.

I still play Reach pretty frequently, so I felt the need to express my concerns here.

1. not sure if not being able to kill people is worse than promoting camping. 

2. Okay... so a power weapon is now a power weapon instead of a niche wep. this is ideal.

3. no1 said pacing is unviable or viable. it's that it's all RNG in the end. even if you have the best statistical pacing, you're gunna lose fights where you did nothing wrong and your opponent chose a low RNG and won. Or you both picked the same, aimed the same, except one of you won. 

 

for analysis. 0:16 clip. the fight took 2.1seconds, the ttk in h3 is 1.5, and it's 0.6 in ce. like 2.1seconds the guy only died because he chose to. he was literally mid bridge and he wasn't in danger of dying to a 1v1. The first shot could have hit because of spread and not bloom (there is spread on the halo reach dmr too, how fun!), but i think it was close enough for the bm. the last shot could have been spread though

also ur teammate snipes a nade that woulda killed you lol

 

 its not all about winning the battle. if i have the first 2 shots, the guy can turn and beat me because RNG or he statistically is more likely to land 4 body shots before i land my final headshot through pacing. so now i go into the next battle 1 shot instead of 2shot in any other halo game. 

 

and just upload shit to gfycat so we can frame advance. as long as its <15 seconds you can have up to 60fps

 

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1 hour ago, Riddler said:

1. not sure if not being able to kill people is worse than promoting camping. 

2. Okay... so a power weapon is now a power weapon instead of a niche wep. this is ideal.

3. no1 said pacing is unviable or viable. it's that it's all RNG in the end. even if you have the best statistical pacing, you're gunna lose fights where you did nothing wrong and your opponent chose a low RNG and won. Or you both picked the same, aimed the same, except one of you won. 

 

for analysis. 0:16 clip. the fight took 2.1seconds, the ttk in h3 is 1.5, and it's 0.6 in ce. like 2.1seconds the guy only died because he chose to. he was literally mid bridge and he wasn't in danger of dying to a 1v1. The first shot could have hit because of spread and not bloom (there is spread on the halo reach dmr too, how fun!), but i think it was close enough for the bm. the last shot could have been spread though

also ur teammate snipes a nade that woulda killed you lol

 

 its not all about winning the battle. if i have the first 2 shots, the guy can turn and beat me because RNG or he statistically is more likely to land 4 body shots before i land my final headshot through pacing. so now i go into the next battle 1 shot instead of 2shot in any other halo game. 

 

and just upload shit to gfycat so we can frame advance. as long as its <15 seconds you can have up to 60fps

 

1. My first point had nothing to do with camping.

2. I don't think you understand just how awful the sword is in TU Reach. People hide around corners with a weapon that is absurdly dumb when paired with sprint.

3. It can be random, but the thing is that TU doesn't fix the issue at all. And if anything, it makes the issue worse by increasing the probability that someone will just get randomly lucky. If you want to fix that, then you'd have to get rid of bloom entirely.

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What website am I on right now? Lmao. There is nothing worse in the entire series than default Reach. Nothing. Rockets on Chiron TL34 is better. Of course it still has a lot wrong with it on TU settings. If you're actually interested in playing anything worth a damn on Reach you're in the competitive playlist or playing some weird forge custom.

Anywhere else and you've got strange tastes at best (at least imo obviously) and should probably prepare to spawn with the magnum/AR and play on Swordbase in most cases. Fuck 100% and 85% bloom. Forever. 

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Just now, Snipe Three said:

What website am I on right now? Lmao. There is nothing worse in the entire series than default Reach. Nothing. Rockets on Chiron TL34 is better. Of course it still has a lot wrong with it on TU settings. If you're actually interesting in playing anything worth a damn on Reach you're in the competitive playlist or playing some weird forge custom.

Yeah. Vanilla Reach was 100% the worst way to play Halo seriously. I think most people have just forgotten how ass full bloom, vanilla AL/sprint and no melee bleedthroughs were. If I remember right they made grenades less OP as well.

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Am I seeing correctly? Are people defending bloom in Reach on Teambeyond? 

I know my vision is not as good as it used to be, but...

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I hope those hints at mod support weren't a joke because the Reach sandbox could be pretty damn good with a few tweaks. Default Reach is ass but there's a good game hidden underneath all that bloom and motion blur.

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47 minutes ago, Basu said:

I hope those hints at mod support weren't a joke because the Reach sandbox could be pretty damn good with a few tweaks. Default Reach is ass but there's a good game hidden underneath all that bloom and motion blur.

They need to fix these horrid viewmodels first.

splashdamage1-f550e03ab0ef47e8a91b02756b

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Does the weapon have to also expand when increasing the FOV? I swear I've played games before where increasing the FOV didn't reveal the player model's elbows.

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Vanilla Reach is by far the worst. Just recently went back to get reacquainted with it before the update, can re confirm it’s hot trash. People using AL offensively, sprint is ridiculously fast, bloom is and always will be awful, no bleed through on melees., and no power ups on map. Almost everything just feels clunky and wrong. The spawning was nice though, have to give reach that..

NBNS and the anniversary update are the only viable settings. If I had to be honest, anniversary Reach is up there in fun factor and viability. If it were more fleshed out I’d put it above H3 tbh, serious shame that it was connected to Reach and was overshadowed by the CE remake controversy. 

 

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Does the weapon have to also expand when increasing the FOV? I swear I've played games before where increasing the FOV didn't reveal the player model's elbows.

I believe that issue more comes from the centered reticle. They raised the weapon model along with it to compensate. They could also just have a separate weapon FOV, both Halo PC modding and ElDewrito did this.

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8 hours ago, TI Inspire said:

1. My first point had nothing to do with camping.

2. I don't think you understand just how awful the sword is in TU Reach. People hide around corners with a weapon that is absurdly dumb when paired with sprint.

3. It can be random, but the thing is that TU doesn't fix the issue at all. And if anything, it makes the issue worse by increasing the probability that someone will just get randomly lucky. If you want to fix that, then you'd have to get rid of bloom entirely.

2. Gunna need examples of how the reach sword is more powerful than the h2 sword. I think you are confused and thats its more of the case that the maps/settings suck. Like grav hammer is not the best wep in h3 but stick it on epitaph in h3 and ur a god. If someone is camping a corridor with sword, i dont see how its different than say with rockets or shotgun. U have sprint sword for less delay, which still aint as good as rockets and for shotty u get damage off if u dont secure the kill. 

3. Its why bloom is bad. Ik thats not ur argument. But playing in this shit situation, finding kills a lot more is worth losing the rng battle a little more if even true. 

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Does the weapon have to also expand when increasing the FOV? I swear I've played games before where increasing the FOV didn't reveal the player model's elbows.

It's entirely possible to program a game that way.  Random example, here's DUSK at 75 and DUSK at 150.

IIRC in TF2 you can completely customize weapon model location and scale as well.

I think most older games just didn't really separate the two because there was no real point as players weren't going to be able to adjust FoV anyways.

But I couldn't tell you whether doing so in Reach would be possible or not.

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Great, now I just want to play more Dusk. That game was so sick.

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8 minutes ago, Ramirez77 said:

It's entirely possible to program a game that way.  Random example, here's DUSK at 75 and DUSK at 150.

IIRC in TF2 you can completely customize weapon model location and scale as well.

I think most older games just didn't really separate the two because there was no real point as players weren't going to be able to adjust FoV anyways.

But I couldn't tell you whether doing so in Reach would be possible or not.

It's a thing in Serious Sam, too. A game that has splitscreen on PC.

 

Spoiler

ib2IrdI.jpghaFCcr5.jpg

 

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7 hours ago, Stoppabl3 said:

Vanilla Reach is by far the worst. Just recently went back to get reacquainted with it before the update, can re confirm it’s hot trash. People using AL offensively, sprint is ridiculously fast, bloom is and always will be awful, no bleed through on melees., and no power ups on map. Almost everything just feels clunky and wrong. The spawning was nice though, have to give reach that..

NBNS and the anniversary update are the only viable settings. If I had to be honest, anniversary Reach is up there in fun factor and viability. If it were more fleshed out I’d put it above H3 tbh, serious shame that it was connected to Reach and was overshadowed by the CE remake controversy. 

 

To be fair it’s probably  a lot worse because the average game is bad connection which makes bloom far worse. 

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The bloom as implemented in Reach is terrrrrible. Take a scenario where a flag carrier is about to round a corner, and if they do, they win the game. It's all up to you, and they're positioned in such a way that you don't have time to take all paced shots, but if you spam at max ROF they might die. In that case the ONLY play is to spam, and whether you kill them or not it's bullshit either way.

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Vanilla Reach makes me want to swallow magma. There were so many things that prevent you from winning engagements with shield remaining. Everything in the game seemed to conspire to leave you shieldless and incapable of fighting another one until you've waited for it to regen.

But that's ok, a jetpacker or sprinter will come and wipe you out whilst you're waiting to recharge.

Or a hand-held nuke will bounce around the corner.

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