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Anyone that prefers vanilla deserves to suffer tbh. They can cross their arms and pout as long as they need to until they see the error of their ways. While I probably won't even be playing anything other than v7, making the majority of Reach TU is undeniably a good call.

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1 hour ago, Larry Sizemore said:

What are you talking about? I never once even suggested that ZB should be the standard across all of Reach matchmaking. I know there's no chance of that.It doesn't matter if TU is "objectively better" than vanilla by some meaningless, microscopic amount.

Lol so is it "microscopically different" or "so drastically different it will scare all the poor vanilla fanboys away"? Let's be real, the people who liked vanilla won't even notice that bloom is different or the other minor tweaks made to the game. They never played TU because 343 like the idiots they have always been shoved TU settings into SUpeR SlaYeR and left default Team Slayer vanilla. Reverse the names and people would've flocked to the TU variant. BTB was still extremly popular and guess what? The entire playlist was TU. There aren't millions of people out there waiting to play vanilla and nothing but vanilla Reach, stop with this nonsense assumption already. The only exceptions are Invasion because it would upset the game. for example Elites would wreck Spartans with the patched Needle Rifle (it has zero bloom in TU) and stuff like Infection and Grifball are apparently better with vanilla. I don't know why and frankly I don't care.

 

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Bloom and armor abilities, the two main culprits behind all the backlash Reach got in the first place, are still present and still every bit as much of a drag on the game as they were before the TU (again, go ahead and wave the patch notes in my face until your arm falls off - it's window dressing, the game itself plays no better with slightly nerfed versions of each). The difference is (again...), the people who actually liked Reach and played it extensively for the first year-plus of its life cycle, before TU settings were rolled out (which is a lot, many multiples more than Halo 4 was getting a year after launch), are now getting a watered down version of what they loved, because ticky tack concessions are being made to people like you and 90% of this board, who still won't fuck with Reach for more than a few days after it launches because the game still blows for the aforementioned reasons. Yet you insist on it anyway because TU IS OBJECTIVELY BETTER BRO!

Again show me where all these people longing for Vanilla Reach are, because outside of a very small number of Waypoint idiots I've never seen anyone say they want to play Vanilla over TU. The kids that quit Reach in 2010 before the patch are not going to remember intricate details like the bloom expansion rate and the armor lock recharge time.

 

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This reminds me of the stupid-ass conversation here from wayyy back where people insisted that Halo 4 should be Halo 2/Halo 3-ized for the MCC to "unify the experience" or some bullshit, even though a H4 that's been made to cheaply imitate H2 or H3 is still a cesspool and anyone who actually enjoyed the original H4 gets screwed, but fuck them, right?

And yet 343 removed most if not all the Infinity bullshit in H4 MCC and stuff like Legendary BRs without loadouts showed up regularly the last time I played. Never saw a single complaint about that. And something tells me the "Vanilla Reach is better" crowd is about as big and outspoken as the "H4 was better when all gametypes had loadouts and killstreaks" crowd.

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27 minutes ago, Basu said:

Lol so is it "microscopically different" or "so drastically different it will scare all the poor vanilla fanboys away"? Let's be real, the people who liked vanilla won't even notice that bloom is different or the other minor tweaks made to the game. They never played TU because 343 like the idiots they have always been shoved TU settings into SUpeR SlaYeR and left default Team Slayer vanilla. Reverse the names and people would've flocked to the TU variant. BTB was still extremly popular and guess what? The entire playlist was TU. There aren't millions of people out there waiting to play vanilla and nothing but vanilla Reach, stop with this nonsense assumption already. The only exceptions are Invasion because it would upset the game. for example Elites would wreck Spartans with the patched Needle Rifle (it has zero bloom in TU) and stuff like Infection and Grifball are apparently better with vanilla. I don't know why and frankly I don't care.

1) That's a whole lot of conjecture to try and explain away the post-TU population drop. Franklez would be proud.

2) There aren't millions, or thousands, or even hundreds of people longing to play 85% bloom with sprint and armor lock and nothing but 85% bloom with sprint and armor lock. It's being spoonfed to them and their attitude is whatever.

3) I never said anybody would be scared away (well they might, who knows), I said that the product they're looking forward to would be a compromised version of what they remember. For no good reason, since none of the TU advocates are actually going to searching Reach for more than a week or two. That's not fair to them. It's akin to me strolling into the Battlefield community (a game I have never played once and have no plans to) and demanding that it be remade into something that more resembles a game that I play, on the grounds that it's "objectively better." They would tell me go shit in a hat, and rightfully so. Or walking into a restaurant, ordering a Coke, and receiving a Diet Coke instead because the waiter thinks it's "objectively better."

Be honest with yourselves for just one second - none, NONE, of you plan on playing any Reach at all (outside of ZBNS), but you insist that matchmaking should be all TU anyway, because... reasons (HURR DURR MUH OBJEKTIVLEE BETTR). Because you said so. That's a bit scummy. You guys are really no better than the kids who used to cry that MLG settings are offensive to humanity should be deleted from matchmaking. The lack of self-awareness on this forum just blows my mind. You'll post and mock the opinions of 343 and Waypoint Billy then turn around and do the exact same shit they're doing.

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Again show me where all these people longing for Vanilla Reach are, because outside of a very small number of Waypoint idiots I've never seen anyone say they want to play Vanilla over TU. The kids that quit Reach in 2010 before the patch are not going to remember intricate details like the bloom expansion rate and the armor lock recharge time.

Show me where the people longing for the TU are, that actually plan on playing the game.

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And yet 343 removed most if not all the Infinity bullshit in H4 MCC and stuff like Legendary BRs without loadouts showed up regularly the last time I played. Never saw a single complaint about that. And something tells me the "Vanilla Reach is better" crowd is about as big and outspoken as the "H4 was better when all gametypes had loadouts and killstreaks" crowd.

Really? Because I have. And the game is a ghost town, which kind of proves my point. It was overhauled and remade for no reason, and not a single soul enjoys or goes out of their way to play it. (At least half the remaining MCC playerbase probably uninstalled it).

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

I’m replying to the underlined text: there’s plenty of us who will play reach far more than a few days. Reach after TU still had thousands! I don’t play reach today simply because 30fps plus mexi host is unplayable! 

Reach before TU had hundreds of thousands. Whoops.

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1 hour ago, Larry Sizemore said:

1) That's a whole lot of conjecture to try and explain away the post-TU population drop. Franklez would be proud.

2) There aren't millions, or thousands, or even hundreds of people longing to play 85% bloom with sprint and armor lock and nothing but 85% bloom with sprint and armor lock. It's being spoonfed to them and their attitude is whatever.

3) I never said anybody would be scared away (well they might, who knows), I said that the product they're looking forward to would be a compromised version of what they remember. For no good reason, since none of the TU advocates are actually going to searching Reach for more than a week or two. That's not fair to them. It's akin to me strolling into the Battlefield community (a game I have never played once and have no plans to) and demanding that it be remade into something that more resembles a game that I play, on the grounds that it's "objectively better." They would tell me go shit in a hat, and rightfully so. Or walking into a restaurant, ordering a Coke, and receiving a Diet Coke instead because the waiter thinks it's "objectively better."

1) the game died a pretty natural death over time and the TU came out super fucking late and actually gave the game new life. No idea where this "post TU drop" nonsense is coming from

2) haha funny you turned around the argument, you're so smart. The "whatever attitude" is exactly why no one is going to cry that vanilla settings aren't in MM, as I already said. You keep saying people who want TU will abandon the game after two weeks, what makes you think Vanilla has better staying power?

3) I played hundreds of hours of TU Reach and so have many posters here. I seriously don't know where your anger about TU Reach is coming from. Your battlefield analogy is also completely terrible.

 

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You guys are really no better than the kids who used to cry that MLG settings are offensive to humanity should be deleted from matchmaking.

Yeah because I think it's better if we use the MOST RECENT OFFICIAL SETTINGS for the Reach remaster I'm on the level of 2008 b.net idiots. Dude, the settings are already there. People who have played Reach in the last five years are familiar with TU, not Vanilla and the rest won't even remember what Vanilla was like to begin with. The TU settings are the settings the developers came up with to improve the game, not some niche fan made rebalance mod. This isn't about shoving shit settings down people's throats, it's about choosing the right settings and fixing the past mistake (thanks Frankie) of not applying the update to the entire game.

 

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Really? Because I have. And the game is a ghost town, which kind of proves my point. It was overhauled and remade for no reason, and not a single soul enjoys or goes out of their way to play it. (At least half the remaining MCC playerbase probably uninstalled it).

It's a ghost town because H4 never had a population to begin with. Doesn't "prove your point" in the slightest.

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2 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Reach before TU had hundreds of thousands. Whoops.

Reach during the TU had at best 150k online. 

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4 hours ago, Basu said:

1) the game died a pretty natural death over time and the TU came out super fucking late and actually gave the game new life. No idea where this "post TU drop" nonsense is coming from

With Halo's life cycle I don't think a year into its release is really that late. Halo 4 did have its announcement trailer at the same time though. 

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8 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

3) I never said anybody would be scared away (well they might, who knows), I said that the product they're looking forward to would be a compromised version of what they remember. For no good reason, since none of the TU advocates are actually going to searching Reach for more than a week or two. That's not fair to them. It's akin to me strolling into the Battlefield community (a game I have never played once and have no plans to) and demanding that it be remade into something that more resembles a game that I play, on the grounds that it's "objectively better." They would tell me go shit in a hat, and rightfully so. Or walking into a restaurant, ordering a Coke, and receiving a Diet Coke instead because the waiter thinks it's "objectively better."

I understand your perspective, but I think its weird to think of the TU as some sort of zero-sum game between two camps of players. I consider the TU is a refinement of the core Reach gameplay more than I consider it some kind of compromise for the comp players. The actual "compromise" that came out of the TU was letting us make ZB gametypes for own separate gametypes.

 

8 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Be honest with yourselves for just one second - none, NONE, of you plan on playing any Reach at all (outside of ZBNS), but you insist that matchmaking should be all TU anyway, because... reasons (HURR DURR MUH OBJEKTIVLEE BETTR). Because you said so. That's a bit scummy. You guys are really no better than the kids who used to cry that MLG settings are offensive to humanity should be deleted from matchmaking. The lack of self-awareness on this forum just blows my mind. You'll post and mock the opinions of 343 and Waypoint Billy then turn around and do the exact same shit they're doing.

I'm literally buying Reach on PC for the sole purpose of armor locking vehicles to death in an Invasion playlist, as well as playing the campaign. I think TU makes the game somewhat more enjoyable casually while still maintaining the core Loadout/Bloom/AA experience.

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7 hours ago, Basu said:

1) the game died a pretty natural death over time and the TU came out super fucking late and actually gave the game new life. No idea where this "post TU drop" nonsense is coming from

Gave the game new life? Don't tell the population numbers that.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

2) haha funny you turned around the argument, you're so smart. The "whatever attitude" is exactly why no one is going to cry that vanilla settings aren't in MM, as I already said. You keep saying people who want TU will abandon the game after two weeks, what makes you think Vanilla has better staying power?

Reach having had more population before the TU was released, for starters (b-b-but muh natural death!). There's also the principle of respecting what actual fans of Reach want, instead of what people who vocally hated the game want.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

3) I played hundreds of hours of TU Reach and so have many posters here. I seriously don't know where your anger about TU Reach is coming from. Your battlefield analogy is also completely terrible.

My Battlefield analogy is dead on.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

Yeah because I think it's better if we use the MOST RECENT OFFICIAL SETTINGS for the Reach remaster I'm on the level of 2008 b.net idiots.

Yup.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

People who have played Reach in the last five years are familiar with TU, not Vanilla

Yeah, I'm sure there have been tons of unique Reach players since summer 2014.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

and the rest won't even remember what Vanilla was like to begin with.

Kind of like how you apparently don't even remember 85%/slightly nerfed armor lock being meme-tier back in the day?

7 hours ago, Basu said:

The TU settings are the settings the developers came up with to improve the game, not some niche fan made rebalance mod.

MFW they didn't improve the game at all. Random bloom is still random, armor lock is still press-X-to-not-die, armor abilities are still front and center. B-B-BUT LOOK AT THESE PATCH NOTES D00D!!!1

7 hours ago, Basu said:

This isn't about shoving shit settings down people's throats, it's about choosing the right settings and fixing the past mistake (thanks Frankie) of not applying the update to the entire game.

What makes these the "right" settings? What a pompous load of shit.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

It's a ghost town because H4 never had a population to begin with. Doesn't "prove your point" in the slightest.

Anyone who liked the original Halo 4 got screwed for nothing, since the supposed target audience of Halo 4 being Halo 3-ized couldn't possibly give less of a crap. B-B-BUT HURR DURR ANY1 WHO LIKED THE ORIGINAL HALO 4 DESERVES TO BE SLAPPED AND RE-EDUCATED HERPADERPADERPADERP

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6 minutes ago, Ling Ling said:

I understand your perspective, but I think its weird to think of the TU as some sort of zero-sum game between two camps of players. I consider the TU is a refinement of the core Reach gameplay more than I consider it some kind of compromise for the comp players. The actual "compromise" that came out of the TU was letting us make ZB gametypes for own separate gametypes.

 

I'm literally buying Reach on PC for the sole purpose of armor locking vehicles to death in an Invasion playlist, as well as playing the campaign. I think TU makes the game somewhat more enjoyable casually while still maintaining the core Loadout/Bloom/AA experience.

How is TU "refined" over vanilla? Random bloom is still random bloom. Armor lock is still press-X-to-not-die and still blows up vehicles for no reason. Sprint and jetpack still break all the maps. Everything that makes the game undesirable for someone who doesn't enjoy a chaotic CoD ripoff is still there. The people who actually did enjoy that get less of what they want, since they can't use their AR as effectively or sit in armor lock for the full six seconds anymore.

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6 hours ago, Arlong said:

Reach during the TU had at best 150k online. 

Reach before the TU had at least twice that.

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8 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

How is TU "refined" over vanilla? Random bloom is still random bloom. Armor lock is still press-X-to-not-die and still blows up vehicles for no reason. Sprint and jetpack still break all the maps. Everything that makes the game undesirable for someone who doesn't enjoy a chaotic CoD ripoff is still there. The people who actually did enjoy that get less of what they want, since they can't use their AR as effectively or sit in armor lock for the full six seconds anymore.

I'm not sure how less random bloom isn't better than large random bloom? Are they both random? Yes. Are they both the same? No.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

How is TU "refined" over vanilla? Random bloom is still random bloom. Armor lock is still press-X-to-not-die and still blows up vehicles for no reason. Sprint and jetpack still break all the maps. Everything that makes the game undesirable for someone who doesn't enjoy a chaotic CoD ripoff is still there. 

That's...literally the point. It's fundamentally the same, but slightly different. "Refined" as in "not totally destroyed from the ground up to make way for my vision of the game". Tweaked would be a better description.

13 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

The people who actually did enjoy that get less of what they want, since they can't use their AR as effectively or sit in armor lock for the full six seconds anymore.

Again, you're deep in an "us vs them" mindset. Would an opposite stat-change work? What if the TU made armor lock last 12 seconds? 12 minutes? Infinite minutes? Is there a linear relationship between the length of the armor lock ability and the enjoyment it has for these players you're attempting to defend? We both know the answer is no. Maybe some players like the concept of loadouts, but want them to be balanced relative to each other. That's a pretty clear example of someone who doesn't want "competitive" Halo, but might also want the TU. In the case of Invasion specifically, those are my genuine beliefs. I do not want Invasion to be like competitive Halo, I want loadouts and bloom and AA's and elites in that mode. I think the TU makes the mode better. The best version of "loadout Halo" is not necessarily the one that appeared at the game's launch. You attempt to defend the idea that there are players who would enjoy the default experience better than the competitive vision of Halo, which is an appreciable point of view, but simultaneously do not acknowledge that these players might enjoy the default experience for more reasons than those settings simply being what they were first exposed to.

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Not sure if anyone from 343 still comes to these forums but It would be awesome if there was a ranked no bloom no sprint FFA playlist on mcc PC for us lonely mother fkrs with no friends that still wanna grind lol

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4 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Reach before the TU had at least twice that.

Probably because by the time 343 got around to releasing the TU everyone got sick of Reach's shit and didn't want to come back. I remember playing Reach at launch for a month, and not touching it once after that until the TU.

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6 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Gave the game new life? Don't tell the population numbers that.

Oh look more unsubstantiated claims.

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Reach having had more population before the TU was released, for starters (b-b-but muh natural death!). There's also the principle of respecting what actual fans of Reach want, instead of what people who vocally hated the game want.
 

And another one. You have failed at least three times now not show where this SiLenT MaJoRiTY of vanilla-lovers is hiding. Are they in a decade-long hibernation? Tell these millions of people to wake up because vanilla Reach is coming back soon!

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My Battlefield analogy is dead on.

Do I really have to explain this to you? Come on now.

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Kind of like how you apparently don't even remember 85%/slightly nerfed armor lock being meme-tier back in the day?

MFW they didn't improve the game at all. Random bloom is still random, armor lock is still press-X-to-not-die, armor abilities are still front and center. B-B-BUT LOOK AT THESE PATCH NOTES D00D!!!1

Lol you're literally spelling out your flawed argumentation again:

  • "The patch is useless it doesn't do anything"
  • "The patch changes the game too much, those poor vanilla Reach fans!"

So which is it?

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What makes these the "right" settings? What a pompous load of shit.

Anyone who liked the original Halo 4 got screwed for nothing, since the supposed target audience of Halo 4 being Halo 3-ized couldn't possibly give less of a crap. B-B-BUT HURR DURR ANY1 WHO LIKED THE ORIGINAL HALO 4 DESERVES TO BE SLAPPED AND RE-EDUCATED HERPADERPADERPADERP

Are you having a meltdown? Looks like it. Again: I've never seen a single complaint about H4 MCC besides the missing content from the last DLC. I guess we should also revert the H4 TU according to your logic, because most people quit H4 after like two weeks and the TU came out 6 months later therefore more people like vanilla H4 with the 5 shot BR right? More popular = more better therefore H4 vanilla >>> TU H4. Strong logic.

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I hated Vanilla Reach. I tried it for like a month and then played Battliefield BC2 for all of 2011. The TU brought me back, and I dumped hundreds and hundreds of hours into the game. The TU made all the difference for me, and all the people I played with. It's a big deal.

Also, someone needs to look up when the TU came out, and compare the XBL charts from the months prior and the months after the TU. I would but I gtg to work.

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9 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Reach before the TU had at least twice that.

No it didnt lol. Reach was in decline and TU jumped the pop for it to decline just the same afterwards. The population chart of h3 v reach v h4 has been posted dozens of times here but on mobile so cbf. Search the thread for chart probably. 

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14 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Reach before the TU had at least twice that.

No it did not. Reach TU came out late 2011, and reach pop started to dwindle as all the h3 fans went back to h3 and other games like the black ops series.

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Halo reach saw the population dwindle(but lmao definitely nothing like the h4 drop, and in h5s case we don’t know because 343 are too scared to give us a population counter) . Most people praised the TU, fun fact squad slayer had a super high population similar to team slayer but then this ridiculous name called super Slayer came out and that playlist dwindled. A bad names playlist can definitely screw over something’s. 

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So is the PC version going to be like the shitty Reach that launched? I thought I read a tweet that it would have no bloom

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19 minutes ago, Strikah said:

So is the PC version going to be like the shitty Reach that launched? I thought I read a tweet that it would have no bloom

No. It will have 15% less bloom. Aka still bad but expected

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There are some particularities with Reach that make me hesitant to endorse TU over vanilla.

Basically...

  1. In Reach gametypes with bloom, crouching reduces its effect. In TU, crouch shooting is very common because bloom is essentially nonexistent while crouching. As a result, the meta for high-levelish games on TU settings heavily incorporates strats involving when and where to do this. In case your wondering, it's not particularly fun to execute or go against. Vanilla mostly alleviates this by making crouch shooting not valuable enough to use frequently.
  2. You lose the ability to parry sword attacks on TU settings. For claustrophobic maps with Energy Swords and sprint, this is unideal.
  3. In vanilla, believe it or not, pacing your shots (provided that you can aim at a high level of proficiency) is actually viable at most ranges. Some weapons, like the Magnum, are almost unusable beyond near point blank range unless you are willing to pace your shots. In TU OTOH, incentives for pacing are heavily reduced with bloom's reduction, encouraging the sort of spamming that made Reach feel so random to most players.

FYI:

Pacing is when you when you wait for the reticle to shrink back to normal size before shooting again, spamming is when you shoot as quickly as the game allows. Some posters may not like the usage of these terms due to their opposition of bloom as a mechanic, believing that their habits to shoot as quickly as possible should not be punished as a matter of principle for their preference of faster killing and always accurate utilities. I don't fundamentally disagree with these views, but it should be noted that the usage of these terms is wholly necessary to explain how bloom works within Reach.

For clips to demonstrate what I'm talking about what regard to the viability of pacing in Reach's vanilla settings, look at the clips below.

https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/ti-inspire/video/74101798

https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/ti-inspire/video/73579578

In the first clip, starting from 0:16, I hit a clean 5 shot out of scope from a very long distance while appropriately pacing. Obviously, this a more impressive example of what I am talking about, hence why i clipped it. But it should be made clear that pacing is entirely viable in Reach. The second clip is a more practical example of my play style.

I still play Reach pretty frequently, so I felt the need to express my concerns here.

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