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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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28 minutes ago, Arlong said:

No I wouldn’t say so, but the casuals and new players won’t be delighted to find their starting weapon which is an auto is utter crap, and only useful in niche circumstances. Most people I’ve realized assume the weapon they spawn with(primary gun I’ll add) is the strong weapon were meant to use. Perhaps halo should spawn us EVERY TIME with the precision weapon than the auto. I’m not the biggest fan myself of guns being useful only in niche styles. I didn’t mind h5s earlier weapon balance, I honestly felt the pistol just needed to be 4sk and everything would of been fine. The other weapons would still be useful to grab because they’re easier to aim with, but my pistol/starting tool would still be super good via TTK/damage. It also would please the lesser skilled players. 

I don't feel too strongly about which weapon is primary or secondary jn your starting loadout.

Let's keep tweaking my suggestion, but I do want to touch on other things you said. H5 AR primary and pistol secondary but the pistol is changed to four shots for social playlists, DMR and SMG take H1 pistol and AR properties and are pickups on map. Competitive playlist is DMR primary and SMG seconday starts. Social players have used those weapons as pickups, and while they may think the SMG is useless especially compared to the DMR, they definitely understand that the DMR should be used. Is this better or worse than my other suggsstion?

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm dismissing your point about casual players liking strong autos, it's definitely not my intention. I just like exploring ideas.

Speaming of exploring ideas, what do you not like about niche weapons?

 

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24 minutes ago, Silos said:

I don't feel too strongly about which weapon is primary or secondary jn your starting loadout.

Let's keep tweaking my suggestion, but I do want to touch on other things you said. H5 AR primary and pistol secondary but the pistol is changed to four shots for social playlists, DMR and SMG take H1 pistol and AR properties and are pickups on map. Competitive playlist is DMR primary and SMG seconday starts. Social players have used those weapons as pickups, and while they may think the SMG is useless especially compared to the DMR, they definitely understand that the DMR should be used. Is this better or worse than my other suggsstion?

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm dismissing your point about casual players liking strong autos, it's definitely not my intention. I just like exploring ideas.

Speaming of exploring ideas, what do you not like about niche weapons?

 

I think you should take into account no game dev is going to make different weapon functionings for different playlist. Example would be where in social precision weapons are hitscan and in the comp mode projectile. It sounds cool on paper to have though.

i don’t like niche weapons because they’re more of something I feel is hardly needed. I don’t mind picking up a weapon and it basically being an upgrade. Sure I wouldn’t mind niche weapons I just don’t mind what h5 did. I felt like the only nerfs needed were auto nerfs(the current autos are fine) but the precision weapons needed an AA nerf, and the BR a range Nerf that’s it.

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9 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I think you should take into account no game dev is going to make different weapon functionings for different playlist. Example would be where in social precision weapons are hitscan and in the comp mode projectile. It sounds cool on paper to have though.

don’t like niche weapons because they’re more of something I feel is hardly needed. I don’t mind picking up a weapon and it basically being an upgrade. Sure I wouldn’t mind niche weapons I just don’t mind what h5 did. I felt like the only nerfs needed were auto nerfs(the current autos are fine) but the precision weapons needed an AA nerf, and the BR a range Nerf that’s it.

Maybe I explained myself poorly, I'm not expecting them to change gun balance per playlist. But use the existing sandbox to do the things I describe. Like the DMR kills in three shots instead of five, has low aim assist, and it's like this in every playlist. It just happens to be the primary weapon in competitive, and is an on map pickup in social. The pistol on the other hand kills in four bullets, has more aim assist, it's like this in every playlist, and it does not appear in the competitive playlist because we already have the DMR.

And that's interesting regarding your take on niche weapons. I don't know if we'll ever agree there, I like when weapons aren't upgrades, but I'd compromise for social. I appreciate your explanation, thanks.

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39 minutes ago, Silos said:

Maybe I explained myself poorly, I'm not expecting them to change gun balance per playlist. But use the existing sandbox to do the things I describe. Like the DMR kills in three shots instead of five, has low aim assist, and it's like this in every playlist. It just happens to be the primary weapon in competitive, and is an on map pickup in social. The pistol on the other hand kills in four bullets, has more aim assist, it's like this in every playlist, and it does not appear in the competitive playlist because we already have the DMR.

And that's interesting regarding your take on niche weapons. I don't know if we'll ever agree there, I like when weapons aren't upgrades, but I'd compromise for social. I appreciate your explanation, thanks.

I simply just don’t want to pick up a gun that can’t kill. Sure there’s exceptions like ths plasma pistol that works as a combo, but other than that I’m not a fan. 

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Microsoft stores are creating events to watch the E3 conference in their store, the description says a closed beta version of Reach for PC will be available to play there. We may be getting close to the flighting program launching.

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5 hours ago, Arlong said:

DUDE listen. The entire game can’t afford to be super skillful. There’s a reason for a competitive playlist. Halo is the only game where autos and precision weapons have such a high dislike and love. So many confuse the precision weapons as OP(they take skill to use but most hardly care)  and it’s because autos usually are so dogshit. In the average shooter autos are used by most people it’s just what’s easiest and just feels right. 

As long as the precision weapon is dominant we can afford to have decent autos. You’re selfish as heck to believe autos should be super weak just because you believe this is the way halo should be played. This is one thing that’s really ruined halos reputation. Just because your battle ends with you half of 3/4 shields doesn’t mean the auto is too strong. See here’s what will happen if autos are too weak. They’re not going to switch to the pistol the utility, they’re going to a new game where autos aren’t dogshit. Please understand this is the best way to balance things appropriately. A decent auto but a still dominant utility/precision weapon. If anything the autos need less aim assist, but still have that big reticule that makes it easy.  H4s weapon balance wasn’t bad at all. Autos were good but the utility weapons(precision) were dominant. That’s perfect balance for halo if you ask me.

Low-skill players don't like fighting against precision weapons because of the constant pressure. You're always under the threat of being melted by a "laser beam" pistol or rifle. The same feeling can be produced with an AR that is too effective. If low-skill players are complaining about the precision weapons being too powerful relative to automatics, the solution is not to buff the AR but to make the precision weapons more difficult to use. The ideal way to "balance" the starting weapons to maximize player happiness would be to tune weapon win rate to be approximately equal to weapon usage rate for a particular skill percentile. The boundary conditions are to satisfy the potato thumb crowd with enough ease of use for the AR and the MLG pro crowd with the ability to kill people effectively.

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If you equated damage output to sweatiness, which people only want in small doses, then the sweatiness of a match with even-skilled players might look like this (green line). I'm assuming that the worst player uses the AR 100% of the time and the best player uses it never. To do this properly, you would need to study the actual weapon usage rate vs skill (which is tricky because skill is dependent on the weapon balance) and tune the damage and difficulty curve of each weapon to reinforce the behavior you observe. It's kind of silly to have this conversation because everything is relative and we're not talking about damage/spread/autoaim values, that's why I thought it would be funny to make a graph of it. In the end, the main thing that needs to be balanced is how effective something is for the requisite skill--and any weapon in the game could violate that balance.

 

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Why is it splitgate feels more like a halo game than h5 does? 

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5 minutes ago, HeX Reapers said:

lol nice dodge

I more or less don’t want to reply anymore since it’s just another back and forth convo of agree to disagree so it’s time for me to end it.

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

Why is it splitgate feels more like a halo game than h5 does? 

Can't say I agree with that. The both have crappy shiny visuals, loads of worthless armor permutations, sprint, strong autos, base abilities (Spartan Abilities, Jetpack/Portals for SG), easy no scopes. 

It has favorable things going for it like FoV slider, low TTK pistol, low autoaim & bullet mag, but those things don't necessarily make it more of a Halo game. 

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1 hour ago, Nokt said:

Can't say I agree with that. The both have crappy shiny visuals, loads of worthless armor permutations, sprint, strong autos, base abilities (Spartan Abilities, Jetpack/Portals for SG), easy no scopes. 

It has favorable things going for it like FoV slider, low TTK pistol, low autoaim & bullet mag, but those things don't necessarily make it more of a Halo game. 

The jet pack works more like a double jump and doesn’t break the set up like halos jetpack in the past did. It’s portals are an addition to the game whom supports it very well. Easy no scopes are debatable since it’s not that easy when someone is strafing because of the fast strafe accel. It plays far more like a halo game in my opinion, feels a thousand times better than h5. 

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The only real way you'd ever be able to balance the AR and make it feel good for casuals at all is if you give and take a little. You can't just structure an automatic weapon "Wel Itz a sHit gun for sHit Nuubz" People WONT play your game. The best thing to do here is to make the AR absolutely Nasty in CQB and have horrible range. literally unviable range. make it loud and feel impactful like the H1 AR. its like lesser to the shotgun at that point. and it won't interrupt your precious 4 shot bursts as easily. Alternatively to that would be to make the AR a pebble shooter with some suppression purpose. let that thing scrape and grate away at shields like the joke that it is, but let it be nearly cross small map. and make it projectile. and make it feel impactfull still like the H1 AR. none of the H3 Airsoft sponge impact shit. let Fucks and Kids poke at you with their little ratatatata from a least a respectable distance and people won't even at least be as peeved when you still blast the fuck out of them with your precious 4 shot burst. When i was small kid i didn't even really care that the H2 Smg H3 AR wasn't very powerful because its a starting tool. but the fact that it feels like it actually has almost Zero effect anywhere any distance anytime at all. the Perfect Airsoft gun to make Competition Porn addicts feel right safe at home with their BR. And that's just not Fun. Rapid fire guns are some of the most entertaining kinetic feedback in general for people.

Maybe that's why extreme Low TTK is so much more popular

there will always be a striking friction between people who Play games for pick up and play gratification and those who treat said software as their skill progressive entertainment career. its never going away. What skill gap is acceptable to you is grotesque to someone else. And I'll still get stared at weird for suggesting alternate Guns even tho Halo Online has this and it kind of works out. 

Make 2 fucking Assault Rifles. For heavens. One that's a Campaign starting weapon so you're not op, the other that ends up being a campaign upgrade pick up weapon. One that's in Social playlists default. The other that substitutes in a comp environment and takes skill gap seriously. 

Remember, there are JUST as many people who don't care about skill gap, as there are who do. a Real problem i see here with people thinking that Competitive Skill gap is Backwards compatible. its really not. people will either submit themselves to the skewed methodologies of competition or they will play or complain around your meta, or worse, avoid your game. You have to deeply care about skill gap to endulge skill gap. You may have grown up in the atmosphere of literally wanting to do good and progress in Halo, but that Contrast has always been there. the Starker it is the more popular the series gets.

im honestly posting this garbage because i've recently had some Dudes VICIOUSLY Defend Halo 5 meta to me, down to the H1 Pistol. down to like a fucking calculative science, defensive. it was very shocking. they get that theater doesnt work and 343 are incompetent and shit, but my god were they plugged in. and I was just like... You fucking know what? perspectives man.

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Here’s how to fix the Assault Rifle.  Give it a 1.5x scope and make it fire in tight-ish, 5 round bursts while scoped in.  20 shot kill.

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6 minutes ago, Arlong said:

The jet pack works more like a double jump and doesn’t break the set up like halos jetpack in the past did. It’s portals are an addition to the game whom supports it very well. Easy no scopes are debatable since it’s not that easy when someone is strafing because of the fast strafe accel. It plays far more like a halo game in my opinion, feels a thousand times better than h5. 

That doesn't really tell me how it plays or feels more like a Halo game. 

I compared the jetpack to spartan abilities and not Halo's jetpack for that reason. Its a base ability, everyone has it, and its not a loadout.
I guess the sniper comparison is bad because they function differently. Halo 5 (and 4) suffer from high bullet magnetism and auto aim, SG is because a Halo type Sniper functions differently on PC compared to console. You might have a much better strafe, but you also have much more control over your aiming. 

Their maps really aren't reminiscent of anything in Halo with the exception of the one that I can only compare to swordbase.

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13 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Here’s how to fix the Assault Rifle.  Give it a 1.5x scope and make it fire in tight-ish, 5 round bursts while scoped in.  20 shot kill.

I'm still in favor of Destiny's slow fire achetype AR. Slow ROF, smaller reticule, headshot multiplier. You'd have to change the TTK to make it higher because auto's can and have been the meta for certain seasons of Destiny. 

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2 hours ago, Nokt said:

That doesn't really tell me how it plays or feels more like a Halo game. 

I compared the jetpack to spartan abilities and not Halo's jetpack for that reason. Its a base ability, everyone has it, and its not a loadout.
I guess the sniper comparison is bad because they function differently. Halo 5 (and 4) suffer from high bullet magnetism and auto aim, SG is because a Halo type Sniper functions differently on PC compared to console. You might have a much better strafe, but you also have much more control over your aiming. 

Their maps really aren't reminiscent of anything in Halo with the exception of the one that I can only compare to swordbase.

Mostly the gameplay. The way you fight in this game feels pretty halo’y. It’s not a frustrating change like the spartan abilities. Honestly I could accept this jet pack in halo. This game makes me think a change like that could work with classic halo. Being tied to our jump works nice and fine. 

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28 minutes ago, Mythik Nick said:

Nerf AR TTK to half what it was in Reach. Perfect.

Didn’t know we were allowed to post porn on this forum

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I still think we wouldn’t be having this debate if bungie defaulted with the pistol in CE and a BR in H2. No one would ever believe auto starts would be the way the game should play and the autos would be regulated to the niche situation weapons they always should’ve been.

So much time and resources wasted on balancing autos because there’s still this believe that they should be on the same level of importance as the precisions. I just have to be straight up and say auto battles are not fun in halo. The current melee system would always encourage a smart player to hide around the corner and shoot/melee. No one likes being on the receiving end of this tactic because there is no counter. You can’t respond or dodge unless you already know the player is there. It’s just how the autos are utilized in halo post CE. I’m convinced that there’s nothing you can do to autos to make them starting weapon worthy, unless you fundamentally change the melee system. 

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I'll take any ar that doesn't sound like the ear cancer that is h4s ar.

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21 hours ago, Squatting Bear said:

Let me clarify, I meant ranked playlist specifically, the Match Composer is wonderful.  Even if it took 4 years of constant feedback for us to get it.  

 

Other than the rotational playlists and h2/h2a being dead past level 10, the playlists are perfect considering the playerbase. we can't have h2 dubs or h3 btb because of population issues. unless ur logic is to get rid of h3 arena because we have h3 mlg, then that sentiment is not alone, but h3 arena is too popular for the dev team to remove. 

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My ideal AR:

TTK is 50% longer than the utility rifle at the range where you'd realistically use a h3 plasma rifle. Say 10m (br RRR is ~30m in all halo games unscoped).

Make it have less spread so its actually consistent. No headshot multiplier. 2ndary starting weapon. 

 

AR is not hard to balance regarding the sandbox, it's just the AR is not a weapon you want to see used in halo because of its nature; that is its typically impossible to miss with and it's average kill time is about 90% of its ttk. Technically an AR with the same ttk outside of spread as the utility weapon is balanced. The problem is people will use the AR in situations where they need a kill on a weakened player or just need to damage a guy somewhat to win the scenario. This is bad because it removes the ability for outplays. If im 60% shields, i can't win a battle vs a person with an AR on halo5. But if he used the pistol, I stand somewhat of a chance. 

What happens in an equal skilled game is that good players will just use the utility rifle and the bad players will switch to the ARs and AR each other into beatdown trades. 

The major problem is matchmaking and smurfs. as long as bad kids match bad kids, it's fine. 

 

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10 hours ago, Mythik Nick said:

Nerf AR TTK to half what it was in Reach. Perfect.

Halving TTK would be a buff. I assume you mean to double it?

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Maybe what they need to do is make the AR harder to use? Give it moderate levels of recoil. 

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