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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Just now, Shekkles said:

Give me some slack, I have to read everything upside down.

I wanna be serious, and very real for a second. As a moderator, how do you ban someone and actually turn around and pretty obviously passive aggressively mock them, or the way they write to other people. Not only are you mocking someone who straight up can't defend themselves, but you're doing exactly what he was accused of that resulted in his ban, partially, even if it was "intended" as a joke. Not good conduct. You'd be banned off the rip by your own standards. But you get a pass in doing it, because you're supposedly a "leader" of the forums, holding the power to push out bans. Someone who is meant to enforce rules, and maintain a mature, unbiased stance on things. Sure isn't what was seen here. You could do better.

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Moderators influenced by Russian bots, more at 11

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37 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I wanna be serious, and very real for a second.

1) As a moderator, how do you ban someone and actually turn around and pretty obviously passive aggressively mock them, or the way they write to other people.

2) Not only are you mocking someone who straight up can't defend themselves, but you're doing exactly what he was accused of that resulted in his ban, partially, even if it was "intended" as a joke.

3) Not good conduct. You'd be banned off the rip by your own standards. But you get a pass in doing it, because you're supposedly a "leader" of the forums, holding the power to push out bans. Someone who is meant to enforce rules, and maintain a mature, unbiased stance on things. Sure isn't what was seen here. You could do better.

I'll respond seriously. For that purpose I have broken your post into three sections.

1) The first part of my post was genuinely true. I went through the pages and pages of posts and saw that there were multiple posts on a certain page that really started derailing the conversation. The issue is that there seem to be two "factions" that have forms and then a bunch of people in the middle. With the purpose of the debate put aside, the method that it is being conducted varies. I decided to remove the posts that caused the issue, then I have to remove replies to those posts. This snowballed out of control and I realised that the same thing that happened a few weeks ago will happen again (where the thread just went to absolute hell). People were repeating themselves over and over again. However, it went from a normal discussion to a debate then finally an absolute shitshow. I tried to find the cause and found it: a series of reactionary posts by the discord crew. Like it or not, but they were the catalyst of taking it out of control.

2) I wasn't hiding what I was doing, I was making a hyperbolic post that shows how those posts "lmao" posts come across. As for him not being able to defend himself, the squad is here to defend their mate.

3) I won't disagree about the conduct. I am not a leader of the forums, however I am in charge of standards and being hypocritical -deliberate or not- is a failing in those standards, so I have removed that part.

From a personal POV, the debate that keeps circling in this thread is incredibly frustrating to moderate. There are two clans that have formed and for some reason they both keep going at it. I feel most for the people that come into the thread with no horses in races and immediately leave. The issue then becomes "Do I moderate the thread or do I moderate the debate?". I chose to moderate the debate before but because of timezones I usually miss it when it's live. This results in blanket-hides at the end and this can get fatiguing, particularly when there is so much repetition (tell me your stance... you still haven't told me your stance... it's not consistent. It is consistent. It's not consistent.).

I actually don't mind getting called out on if I'm doing a bad job or not. That applies to everyone, if you think someone is out of line and wonder why I can't see it, PM me. Your post definitely flicked a switch in my brain that made me see myself more objectively and I have since removed that part of my post. I do, however, stick by my statement that his posts were the catalyst that derailed the thread. Keep in mind he has had 37 warnings previously, all for similar behavior and none of them by me. 

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1 minute ago, Shekkles said:

I'll respond seriously. For that purpose I have broken your post into three sections.

1) The first part of my post was genuinely true. I went through the pages and pages of posts and saw that there were multiple posts on a certain page that really started derailing the conversation. The issue is that there seem to be two "factions" that have forms and then a bunch of people in the middle. With the purpose of the debate put aside, the method that it is being conducted varies. I decided to remove the posts that caused the issue, then I have to remove replies to those posts. This snowballed out of control and I realised that the same thing that happened a few weeks ago will happen again (where the thread just went to absolute hell). People were repeating themselves over and over again. However, it went from a normal discussion to a debate then finally an absolute shitshow. I tried to find the cause and found it: a series of reactionary posts by the discord crew. Like it or not, but they were the catalyst of taking it out of control.

2) I wasn't hiding what I was doing, I was making a hyperbolic post that shows how those posts "lmao" posts come across. As for him not being able to defend himself, the squad is here to defend their mate.

3) I won't disagree about the conduct. I am not a leader of the forums, however I am in charge of standards and being hypocritical -deliberate or not- is a failing in those standards, so I have removed that part.

From a personal POV, the debate that keeps circling in this thread is incredibly frustrating to moderate. There are two clans that have formed and for some reason they both keep going at it. I feel most for the people that come into the thread with no horses in races and immediately leave. The issue then becomes "Do I moderate the thread or do I moderate the debate?". I chose to moderate the debate before but because of timezones I usually miss it when it's live. This results in blanket-hides at the end and this can get fatiguing, particularly when there is so much repetition (tell me your stance... you still haven't told me your stance... it's not consistent. It is consistent. It's not consistent.).

I actually don't mind getting called out on if I'm doing a bad job or not. That applies to everyone, if you think someone is out of line and wonder why I can't see it, PM me. Your post definitely flicked a switch in my brain that made me see myself more objectively and I have since removed that part of my post. I do, however, stick by my statement that his posts were the catalyst that derailed the thread. Keep in mind he has had 19 warnings previously, all for similar behavior and none of them by me. 

1.) I don't really care if a debate is gonna be ended over annoyance. It's my own personal gripe, but it's a case by case thing, varying by platform. It's w/e. I get where it comes from, even if I wouldn't do it. Was never really my issue.

2.) I didn't say you were hiding it. It's still in poor taste. Besides, his mates aren't him. The fact at best someone else would have to be a mouthpiece is an issue. You shouldn't have to be. You should simply keep it on the downlow, and just be neutral. Not to be patronizing, you removed it, obviously, so you know, but, yunno. 

3.) As a moderator, you're a leader to us. You may not see it, but you're literally a person in charge of handing out judgement calls. We as a whole look to you for proper conclusions on potential issues. 

However, as such, I wanna open up another question. You were able to edit your post when I first wrote that response out. Why wasn't he. This could very well be out of your control, maybe by site policy standards but why in any hell is someone who is going to be banned never given a chance to correct themselves prior to a ban. There was no warning, or anything, and it occurred well after the last post, so they didn't know ANYTHING was wrong until they got banned, which is huge. Someone shouldn't be confused when they get banned. This doesn't just go for him, either. I'd assume this is a standard with how it occurred pretty freely. That seems pretty shifty, to me. No "hey, you're doing [X], we noticed it, cut it out, or you get a ban of [X length] if you continue". Where I come from, that's a basic thing. If it's not up to you, I definitely think it's something the team as a whole should look into. It's fairer for the users in general, and allows both sides to have a voice before the ban is handed. Goes hand in hand with appeals, which also don't exist. 

 

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7 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

This could very well be out of your control, maybe by site policy standards but why in any hell is someone who is going to be banned never given a chance to correct themselves prior to a ban. There was no warning, or anything, and it occurred well after the last post, so they didn't know ANYTHING was wrong until they got banned, which is huge. Someone shouldn't be confused when they get banned. 

I actually really like this as a concept. I'll have a chat to him. Moving forwards, I'll start this method because I'm more comfortable with the transparency behind that method of moderating.

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@Hard Way

I would really appreciate Valhalla, Ragnarok, Last Resort, Stonetown, and Zanzibar not being maps for 4v4 Slayer in Social. Last three can still be used for One Flag, but just get them out of Slayer.

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1 hour ago, S0UL FLAME said:

@Hard Way

I would really appreciate Valhalla, Ragnarok, Last Resort, Stonetown, and Zanzibar not being maps for 4v4 Slayer in Social. Last three can still be used for One Flag, but just get them out of Slayer.

Good call. I think Zanzibar and it’s remakes have already been removed for slayer. I think I remember reading that in an update. But yeah I totally agree.

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Let's put all these disagreements behind us. Piss up at my place tomorrow, just can you please RSVP with my mum first so she can get enough snacks. 

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11 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Think about it, as the mechanic is implemented currently, if you lead a target and they simply stop moving or turn another direction, you'll literally miss, regardless of your aim skill, or the like, as you have no feedback until your bullet hits. Someone could realistically outwalk your bullet, and you can't account for it until it happens, and as such it's out of your control. Couple this with a strafe, jumping, etc in a real game and any long range engagement will turn into a crapshoot. 

Okay? And if it was hitscan and I had my reticle on him and he strafed the opposite way as me, or jumps, or whatever, I also miss. 

Edit if this discussion is over with, please ignore sorry

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29 minutes ago, JordanB said:

Okay? And if it was hitscan and I had my reticle on him and he strafed the opposite way as me, or jumps, or whatever, I also miss. 

Edit if this discussion is over with, please ignore sorry

That’s depending only if when he did said movement you moved outside his/her reticule.

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Do button combos enhance or detract from gameplay?  What button combos should be in the game?

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5 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Do button combos enhance or detract from gameplay?  What button combos should be in the game?

They detract from the game when they're fuck-easy to perform, fuck-awful for consistency, and have no drawback. 

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5 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Do button combos enhance or detract from gameplay?  What button combos should be in the game?

This question is actually worth discussing, Boyo. I'm disappointed in you.

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24 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

They detract from the game when they're fuck-easy to perform, fuck-awful for consistency, and have no drawback. 

There was a member of this forum that created a frame by frame breakdown video of all the Halo 2 button combos and how to perform them.  Does anyone remember this video?  It’s probably a few years old at this point.

 

By drawback, do you mean a drawback if you fail to perform the combo correctly or drawback if you do perform the combo correctly?

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

By drawback, do you mean a drawback if you fail to perform the combo correctly or drawback if you do perform the combo correctly?

I suppose both, technically. In the former case you'd be open to getting killed by your target, in the latter you'd be open to getting killed by someone else. 

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5 minutes ago, Boyo said:

There was a member of this forum that created a frame by frame breakdown video of all the Halo 2 button combos and how to perform them.  Does anyone remember this video?  It’s probably a few years old at this point.

 

By drawback, do you mean a drawback if you fail to perform the combo correctly or drawback if you do perform the combo correctly?

You might be thinking of Kurtiz. 

 




Also I find it funny how button combos work almost flawlessly in CE and H2 but ever since ~07 they have been considered taboo, easy to perform, having no drawback, etc, etc.  Just seems so silly to me if you've ever watched and paid attention to high level play of those two games.

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21 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

You might be thinking of Kurtiz. 

 




Also I find it funny how button combos work almost flawlessly in CE and H2 but ever since ~07 they have been considered taboo, easy to perform, having no drawback, etc, etc.  Just seems so silly to me if you've ever watched and paid attention to high level play of those two games.

Double shotting is a tech from heaven. Bxr...debatable. 

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33 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Double shotting is a tech from heaven. Bxr...debatable. 

And I'll take anyone up on that debate.  I've said this many times before but if you get BXR'd (Assuming there's 8 decent players on a competitive map); you didn't lose the interaction because of as cheap gimmick, you lost map control and were out spaced.  The BXR is just just the method your opponent chose to kill you with.  You could just as easily have gotten stuck, get assassinated, double melee'd, RRBX'd, etc, etc.  If you mess up the inputs you are punished by being stuck in a reload animation and force yourself into an un-actionable state.  If you think someone is gonna BXR you, just hold back and start shooting or throw a damn grenade.  There are counters and option for everything that can be done in H2. 

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3 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

And I'll take anyone up on that debate.  I've said this many times before but if you get BXR'd (Assuming there's 8 decent players on a competitive map); you didn't lose the interaction because of as cheap gimmick, you lost map control and were out spaced.  The BXR is just just the method your opponent chose to kill you with.  You could just as easily have gotten stuck, get assassinated, double melee'd, RRBX'd, etc, etc.  If you mess up the inputs you are punished by being stuck in a reload animation and force yourself into an un-actionable state.  If you think someone is gonna BXR you, just hold back and start shooting or throw a damn grenade.  There are counters and option for everything that can be done in H2. 

Well even holding back is negated by melee lunge and faster forward walk speed than backwards but that's small fry.  My issue is that it can only be done on a full magazine, which more often than not means that the player who was actually shooting the enemy just ends up getting BXR'd because the enemy just walked up to them and shield popped first. I suppose it's more of an issue with no-shield-bleedthrough than it is BXR itself but they work in tandem.  In a world with shield bleed through in H2 and being able to BXR outside of a full mag I could see myself liking it more. I don't like that I'm being punished because I shot at the dude and he didn't shoot back.

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5 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

The BXR is just just the method your opponent chose to kill you with. 

But the mechanic is specifically what's being debated. 

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I'm going to make a slight detour on the button combo debate, let's say we're remaking Halo 1 and 2, we want to keep button combos in but we're thinking of implementing them as an actual feature. Do we really need some of those extra buttons?

Halo 1. Instead of BLB, would it be okay as BB. Instead of XXY, what about XY or maybe even just automatically initiate it when you switch weapons, so just Y.

I don't know, in Halo 1 I feel the cool part is that you have to aim two melees in a row and avoid a grenade, not that you have a trigger pull in the middle although that does help with clarity for why a grenade is coming out. For backpack reload, the cool part is that you don't have to leave the action not that you hit reload twice before switching weapons. Also for backpack reload, there's not really any "meaningful depth" since you basically want to initiate a backpack reload every time you switch weapons so I either feel we need to make it harder, initiate some sort of penalty for messing it up, or something otherwise I feel we might as well make it automatic or close to it

For Halo 2, I feel the BXB and BXR have the same issue as backpack reload. They're easy to execute (not necessarily easy to kill with, but the button combo itself is easy to do) so do we really need the X button in there? I'm thinking melee speed is increased if you chain melees together when you're short bullets in a clip, shooting immediately cancels a melee if you have a full clip.

I don't think you can make the double shot easier without ruining the double shot. Like just pulling the trigger twice quickly to shoot twice quickly is not hard compared to the power you get, also you would never fail it so the penalty for messing up would go away.

--

Maybe I'm crazy. I'm not trying to debate whether all of the button combos are good or bad yet, I want to jump in on that later. But I want to pose the question: For most of the button combos we've seen so far, can we remove some of the button pushes and still have it be cool or does removing the "extra" button pushes make the button combos worse?

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3 minutes ago, Silos said:

I'm going to make a slight detour on the button combo debate, let's say we're remaking Halo 1 and 2, we want to keep button combos in but we're thinking of implementing them as an actual feature. Do we really need some of those extra buttons?

Halo 1. Instead of BLB, would it be okay as BB. Instead of XXY, what about XY or maybe even just automatically initiate it when you switch weapons, so just Y.

I don't know, in Halo 1 I feel the cool part is that you have to aim two melees in a row and avoid a grenade, not that you have a trigger pull in the middle although that does help with clarity for why a grenade is coming out. For backpack reload, the cool part is that you don't have to leave the action not that you hit reload twice before switching weapons. Also for backpack reload, there's not really any "meaningful depth" since you basically want to initiate a backpack reload every time you switch weapons so I either feel we need to make it harder, initiate some sort of penalty for messing it up, or something otherwise I feel we might as well make it automatic or close to it

For Halo 2, I feel the BXB and BXR have the same issue as backpack reload. They're easy to execute (not necessarily easy to kill with, but the button combo itself is easy to do) so do we really need the X button in there? I'm thinking melee speed is increased if you chain melees together when you're short bullets in a clip, shooting immediately cancels a melee if you have a full clip.

I don't think you can make the double shot easier without ruining the double shot. Like just pulling the trigger twice quickly to shoot twice quickly is not hard compared to the power you get, also you would never fail it so the penalty for messing up would go away.

--

Maybe I'm crazy. I'm not trying to debate whether all of the button combos are good or bad yet, I want to jump in on that later. But I want to pose the question: For most of the button combos we've seen so far, can we remove some of the button pushes and still have it be cool or does removing the "extra" button pushes make the button combos worse?

You're right. One of the worst aspects of many button combos (and ultimately controller design in general) is that you have to take your thumb off of the analog stick to perform them, even though they're combat oriented. That means you either have to deal with not being able to aim while performing them, switching your button config to something potentially undesirable, or having to do some crazy carpal tunnel-ass shit like clawing. It would be far more intuitive to map the combo buttons to the bumpers for example. 

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11 hours ago, Hard Way said:

So anyways, about those MM changes? Maybe we have something different to talk about and actually agree on something for once. Might be a nice change of pace from constantly being adversarial all the God damn time.

It's a dead playlist so it probably doesn't matter, but for the H2A hardcore playlist Bomb Warlord has the very very tiny bomb arm zone rather than the larger one that allowed you to arm in front of the flag shield and made it harder to get bumped out of. Just a fan of H2A comp settings putting in his two cents :) 

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2 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Well even holding back is negated by melee lunge and faster forward walk speed than backwards but that's small fry.  My issue is that it can only be done on a full magazine, which more often than not means that the player who was actually shooting the enemy just ends up getting BXR'd because the enemy just walked up to them and shield popped first. I suppose it's more of an issue with no-shield-bleedthrough than it is BXR itself but they work in tandem.  In a world with shield bleed through in H2 and being able to BXR outside of a full mag I could see myself liking it more. I don't like that I'm being punished because I shot at the dude and he didn't shoot back.


Walking backward is a fine counter strategy to a BXR.   If you dont have the space, time, or accuracy to get 4 headshots off before your opponent has the time to get close and lunge than maybe consider developing your awareness so players aren't sneaking up close and killing you for free?  And you can do something called a mid clip BXR (RRBX) which allows you to insta kill a player without a full BR clip.  You're being punished in the game because you lose map control and you lost the neutral game; stop blaming a single button combo out of 20.  Bleed through has absolutely no relevancy here.  

 

2 hours ago, Silos said:

I'm going to make a slight detour on the button combo debate, let's say we're remaking Halo 1 and 2, we want to keep button combos in but we're thinking of implementing them as an actual feature. Do we really need some of those extra buttons?

Halo 1. Instead of BLB, would it be okay as BB. Instead of XXY, what about XY or maybe even just automatically initiate it when you switch weapons, so just Y.

I don't know, in Halo 1 I feel the cool part is that you have to aim two melees in a row and avoid a grenade, not that you have a trigger pull in the middle although that does help with clarity for why a grenade is coming out. For backpack reload, the cool part is that you don't have to leave the action not that you hit reload twice before switching weapons. Also for backpack reload, there's not really any "meaningful depth" since you basically want to initiate a backpack reload every time you switch weapons so I either feel we need to make it harder, initiate some sort of penalty for messing it up, or something otherwise I feel we might as well make it automatic or close to it

For Halo 2, I feel the BXB and BXR have the same issue as backpack reload. They're easy to execute (not necessarily easy to kill with, but the button combo itself is easy to do) so do we really need the X button in there? I'm thinking melee speed is increased if you chain melees together when you're short bullets in a clip, shooting immediately cancels a melee if you have a full clip.

I don't think you can make the double shot easier without ruining the double shot. Like just pulling the trigger twice quickly to shoot twice quickly is not hard compared to the power you get, also you would never fail it so the penalty for messing up would go away.

--

Maybe I'm crazy. I'm not trying to debate whether all of the button combos are good or bad yet, I want to jump in on that later. But I want to pose the question: For most of the button combos we've seen so far, can we remove some of the button pushes and still have it be cool or does removing the "extra" button pushes make the button combos worse?

That all sounds well and nice, but that's not reality is it?  CE and H2 are played a certain way and 343 will never, ever include button combos in Halo.

 

2 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

You're right. One of the worst aspects of many button combos (and ultimately controller design in general) is that you have to take your thumb off of the analog stick to perform them, even though they're combat oriented. That means you either have to deal with not being able to aim while performing them, switching your button config to something potentially undesirable, or having to do some crazy carpal tunnel-ass shit like clawing. It would be far more intuitive to map the combo buttons to the bumpers for example. 

So this is all just silly when we have a plethora of modern controllers that have paddles, extra buttons, remapping, etc.  Being able to Claw on an OG S type or Duke controller was a skillset all on its own that added to what separates good players from lesser players.  I didn't claw for years and still destroyed most kids in H2 with button combos.  Being able to aim with the analog stick AND input the commands for a combo is what makes the game so special.   I personally play with an Elite controller with paddles and some remapping so I can sweep my reticule when I RRX on MCC or Project Cartographer.  


Ya'll boys got any better arguments?  


 

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