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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 minute ago, OG Nick said:

CE magnum with no spread. So, the NHE one. 

I wouldn't mind a smaller reticle, or at least a circle inside the reticle, to better reflect how projectile can affect your shots.

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2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, sad reality. Very. Very. Sad.

The CE clip is funny cause it's be said before that the magnetism on the magnums reticule is stronger at the edge and not dead center. 

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39 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Pretty obvious I disagree with you given I'm arguing the polar opposite with you. Just because I said spread wasn't the magnum opus to my point doesn't mean it isn't an issue. The CE magnum is worse than the H5 magnum because of its spread, among other factors that have been listed, and shown off.

What are your 15 issues with it besides spread? You keep saying "don't strawman me, it's not just spread" so what is it?

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4 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, sad reality. Very. Very. Sad.

I don't know what point you're trying to make but if you're actually desensitized to how brutally easy even the Halo 5 Pistol is to use, its kill time, multi-kill potential, and tech is then I don't know what to tell you. That is a much stronger detriment to the game that is "Halo 5" as a whole than the CE Pistol's spread will ever be.


Doesn't matter what is said tbh, the legacy of Halo CE will speak for itself.  And Halo 5 is the most recent title and already forgotten and buried. And the utility weapon is the heart of every Halo game so, have at it. I feel sorry for anyone who genuinely thinks what we have now is anything besides serviceable.  

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3 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Can you post a video of this? I've 4 shot people at max BR range in Halo 2 when testing out for the clip to see if it was hitscan.

I'll do you one better. I went ahead and recorded every Halo with a BR and a Carbine (except H3, because the bullet holes disappear :(). Check it out.

H2 https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74276925

H2A https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74276909

H4 https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74276868

H5 https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74278384

What's hilarious is the H2 BR in Halo 5 is actually more accurate than the OG.

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3 minutes ago, OG Nick said:

The CE clip is funny cause it's be said before that the magnetism on the magnums reticule is stronger at the edge and not dead center. 

 

1 minute ago, Basu said:

What are your 15 issues with it besides spread? You keep saying "don't strawman me, it's not just spread" so what is it?

 

1 minute ago, MultiLockOn said:

I don't know what point you're trying to make but if you're actually desensitized to how brutally easy even the Halo 5 Pistol is to use, its kill time, multi-kill potential, and tech is then I don't know what to tell you. That is a much stronger detriment to the game that is "Halo 5" as a whole than the CE Pistol's spread will ever be.

12 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

So, in a game on analogue sticks, with aim assist, lead, sway, and spread, not accounting for player movement currently, it's also possible that being a pixel off will make bullet magnetism in red reticle a literal cointoss to where 3 bullets in a row can hit, and 3 others can miss. Seems pretty inconsistent outside of a literal test vacuum.

Also, lmao. "Brutally easy". You and I goosed in a game without thrust, and a faster killing pistol, when we played Evolved. You can't say it's easy, and then just goose against players who have tangibly better shots than you do WITHOUT gimmicks on their side.

 

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6 minutes ago, Boyo said:

@S0UL FLAME  I was talking about the BR on OG Halo 2

CE apparently has the same exact Magnum spread across OG and MCC, if it's not the same case for H2 then I'll be surprised

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32 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

I'll do you one better. I went ahead and recorded every Halo with a BR and a Carbine (except H3, because the bullet holes disappear :(). Check it out.

H2 https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74276925

H2A https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74276909

H4 https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74276868

H5 https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/o-s0ul-flame-o/video/74278384

What's hilarious is the H2 BR in Halo 5 is actually more accurate than the OG.

Nice.  Good footage.  I always thought the H2 BR was pinpoint, weird to see it's not.  

30 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

 

 

Also, lmao. "Brutally easy". You and I goosed in a game without thrust, and a faster killing pistol, when we played Evolved. You can't say it's easy, and then just goose against players who have tangibly better shots than you do WITHOUT gimmicks on their side.

 

So your best argument is to post a random scoreboard card for a custom match, from 2 years ago, with custom settings to prove that the Halo 5 Pistol is difficult.

I've lost a match of tic tac toe before as well, guess that implies skill gap. Evolved with 130% strafe acceleration on top of Halo 5's shit aiming, mind you.  This is one of the weakest arguments I've seen from you, and I know you know that as well.  I suppose it's easier to divulge into stat posting than it is to actually argue on merit. The Halo 5 pistol would absolutely dominate in any Halo game's sandbox and not because of the absence of .2 degree spread. But because it's easy.

 

EDIT: A 3 minute flag match on a 2base-2tower where our team totaled 1 kill.  Good reference.

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4 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

CE apparently has the same exact Magnum spread across OG and MCC, if it's not the same case for H2 then I'll be surprised

I just remember something in a patch changing the BR spread if I’m not mistaken.  Not sure if that carried over to MCC.  Thanks for the footage though.  Good shit.

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

I just remember something in a patch changing the BR spread if I’m not mistaken.  Not sure if that carried over to MCC.  Thanks for the footage though.  Good shit.

Not sure if I'll have time tonight, but I'll get some original H2 footage just in case. I believe I can get it pre and post patch as well.

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Just now, MultiLockOn said:

So your best argument is to post a random scoreboard card for a custom match, from 2 years ago, with custom settings to prove that the Halo 5 Pistol is difficult.

I've lost a match of tic tac toe before as well, guess that implies skill gap. Evolved with 130% strafe acceleration on top of Halo 5's shit aiming, mind you.  This is one of the weakest arguments I've seen from you, and I know you know that as well.  I suppose it's easier to divulge into stat posting than it is to actually argue on merit. The Halo 5 pistol would absolutely dominate in any Halo game's sandbox and not because of the absence of .2 degree spread. But because it's easy.

No, it's just proving it isn't braindead, not that it's super difficult. Big difference. As others have said too, we all dealt with the strafe and "shit" aiming. Essentially equal playing fields. Yet, you and I still fucking tanked. I wonder why. Couldn't be because people were better than us at shooting with their movement options removed.  

You can't just go around, spouting out how shit is easy, and then just failing hardcore. Because obviously in that event, it's not. Obviously there is a gap, and a tangible way to improve, and become better than others. It's not just a game of tradzies and fives. Some become better, some falter. 

And yeah, it would dominate outside of its sandbox. Because most other Halo's sandboxes are garbage, lmao. I don't get this point. Other shit being designed poorly doesn't prove the pistol is easy. It just proves other shit sucks in comparison.

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2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

No, it's just proving it isn't braindead, not that it's super difficult. Big difference. As others have said too, we all dealt with the strafe and "shit" aiming. Essentially equal playing fields. Yet, you and I still fucking tanked. I wonder why. Couldn't be because people were better than us at shooting with their movement options removed.  

You can't just go around, spouting out how shit is easy, and then just failing hardcore. Because obviously in that event, it's not. Obviously there is a gap, and a tangible way to improve, and become better than others. It's not just a game of tradzies and fives. Some become better, some falter. 

And yeah, it would dominate outside of its sandbox. Because most other Halo's sandboxes are garbage, lmao. I don't get this point. Other shit being designed poorly doesn't prove the pistol is easy. It just proves other shit sucks in comparison.

My personal skill has absolutely 0 bearing on this conversation on whether a weapon is too easy.  It shouldn't matter if I'm Snipedown or xxSn1p3rW0lF, the reasoning should stand on its own in any discussion.    That's like, day 1 of a community college course on logic and reasoning. Why is that so hard ti understand.

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TIL having to account for various factors during gunfights leads to dumb luck. Legend & Patch exposed as LUCKY CUNTS. Seriously though, aiming with the CE magnum may be unintuitive, but once you're properly experienced with the nuances of its aiming mechanics (like using the edge of the reticle) it becomes just as consistent as anything else. Or I should say, consistent enough where it's literally a non-issue. Even with the spread (which is removed for NHE), it's still more lethal than any other utility. Even keeps power weapons in check better than the H5 magnum. That should be a big plus for y'all. Doesn't matter that the H5 magnum is 100% consistent if it still kills slow as balls. It's not more lethal and it's definitely not more skillful.

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8 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

My personal skill has absolutely 0 bearing on this conversation on whether a weapon is too easy.  It shouldn't matter if I'm Snipedown or xxSn1p3rW0lF, the reasoning should stand on its own in any discussion.    That's like, day 1 of a community college course on logic and reasoning. Why is that so hard ti understand.

It literally does. If you, I, or someone else sucks, then obviously it's not a braindead weapon. I'm not saying we need to take everyone's points on their skill alone. I'm just saying that by the simple fact people can over or underperform consistently shows that it's not just braindead, and you can't just five off the rip. And you can tangibly show why as a result of the pistol's consistency. 

You can't say "oh, it's so easy", in settings where the weapon's more lethal, but not be able to use it, lmao. It's obviously not easy.

6 minutes ago, TeeJaY said:

TIL having to account for various factors during gunfights leads to dumb luck. Legend & Patch exposed as LUCKY CUNTS. Seriously though, aiming with the CE magnum may be unintuitive, but once you're properly experienced with the nuances of its aiming mechanics (like using the edge of the reticle) it becomes just as consistent as anything else. Or I should say, consistent enough where it's literally a non-issue. Even with the spread (which is removed for NHE), it's still more lethal than any other utility. Even keeps power weapons in check better than the H5 magnum. That should be a big plus for y'all. Doesn't matter that the H5 magnum is 100% consistent if it still kills slow as balls. It's not more lethal and it's definitely not more skillful.

I don't believe this. Again, this is the same game where we've shown you can miss while fine tuning your aim at a target standing still. I don't think anyone's saying anyone who plays the game at a high level is just lucky. We're saying, it can be tangibly inconsistent. Which I don't think is good, or wanted in a comp shooter.

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1 minute ago, MultiLockOn said:

No one has denied that it's the most consistent, at least in terms of bullet spread.  Everyone here accepts that, I was responding to a claim that it was the best utility weapon we've ever had.  I don't think consistency on its own merits what is 'best'.

Okay I'm not gonna respond to your other thing because it's just gonna keep going back and forth on a topic that wasn't even my main point. This is the point we were making. Yes you may think it isn't the best utility. That's great. That's not a problem with anyone here. But we also think it is. The difference is that you make posts and say things like the CE pistol is OBJECTIVELY a better utility. And the issue is that no matter how much you may believe that it's just not true. It's still just an opinion. The same way we believe the h5 magnum is the best utility we have gotten in halo. Not just based only on consistency but that is a huge factor. Can you actually respond to this and simply say "we each have a different opinion and one is not wrong. JUST differemt" instead of ending almost all your posts telling people that they are wrong and you are right? Please? So we can stop this stupid ass thread. That's literally the only thing that needs to be said. Because again the argument we made is against the fact that the CE magnum is OBJECTIVELY better. Which it isn't. It's just want you prefer. 

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Can we just start point checking each other?

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If the argument is consistency then I'm guessing the Halo 5 sniper would be considered better than the Halo CE sniper

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I literally put my quote right below your guy's posts, lol. Explaining my issues with the weapon. I'll requote it here. 

These are my issues. How inside a vacuum we have tangible inconsistency at extended, and even red reticle ranges. And how a vacuum can't account for an actual game, where this stuff is amplified by matter of movement alone, let alone other factors.

I see, apologies.

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So, in a game on analogue sticks, with aim assist, lead, sway, and spread, not accounting for player movement currently, it's also possible that being a pixel off will make bullet magnetism in red reticle a literal cointoss to where 3 bullets in a row can hit, and 3 others can miss. Seems pretty inconsistent outside of a literal test vacuum.

Most of these aren't compelling arguments though. I'm not sure what analogue sticks and aim assist is doing on this list. How is this different from any other Halo? You can also play on PC if it really bothers you that much.

Lead, well I'm not getting into that argument again. I mean yeah projectile sucks in this case because of the terrible hitreg on CE online, but not because "movement is random and inconsistent".

Spread, yes we all aknowledge it exists and it's terrible and should get deleted.

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it's also possible that being a pixel off will make bullet magnetism in red reticle a literal cointoss to where 3 bullets in a row can hit

This is also true for every weapon in Halo though? A single pixel will determine hits or miss yeah, that's how hitboxes work.

 

Quote

And no, it's really not pathetic. Having someone go "it's too/brutally easy", and then showing them a game where people were tangibly better than them in conditions that favored them really goes against the statement. It's obviously not easy when the game isn't a bunch of people trading, and can be pure landslides. They said it was easy, and they struggled. Obviously, it's not.  

It's still a shit argument, because you're attacking his Halo skill as much as his argument that the gun is too easy. It's also a fucking custom game lol, come on now. If you showed VOD of Snipedown missing all his shots for an entire series then yeah you'd have some actual evidence that the gun is too hard.

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From what I can deduct from this, there needs to be a consensus to both parties on the acceptance that:

-The CE Magnum in both OG and MCC are not completely consistent, and have added factors in its functioning (bullet sway, the adjustable magnetism from different ranges) that make it more challenging alongside its inconsistecy

-The Halo 5 Magnum is the most perfectly accurate weapon in Halo history

These are objective truths. Keep your own personal opinions out of it, and come to an agreement. We can move on afterwards. 

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1 hour ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Okay I'm not gonna respond to your other thing because it's just gonna keep going back and forth on a topic that wasn't even my main point. This is the point we were making. Yes you may think it isn't the best utility. That's great. That's not a problem with anyone here. But we also think it is. The difference is that you make posts and say things like the CE pistol is OBJECTIVELY a better utility. And the issue is that no matter how much you may believe that it's just not true. It's still just an opinion. The same way we believe the h5 magnum is the best utility we have gotten in halo. Not just based only on consistency but that is a huge factor. Can you actually respond to this and simply say "we each have a different opinion and one is not wrong. JUST differemt" instead of ending almost all your posts telling people that they are wrong and you are right? Please? So we can stop this stupid ass thread. That's literally the only thing that needs to be said. Because again the argument we made is against the fact that the CE magnum is OBJECTIVELY better. Which it isn't. It's just want you prefer. 

Well, again, this is a deeper rabbit hole.  The shortest possible answer I could give is

 

I believe that what people think they want is just as likely to be what in fact they hate, more likely even.

I believe that in all games, in all genres, the longest lasting titles with real actual player retention and solid user bases that stick around to play the game all share a set of principles. That principle being integrity; which in terms of game design I would break down in mental skill, and mechanical skill.

I think a game, or franchise, that strips itself of mechanical skill and mental skill is dooming itself and will not resonate with players, ultimately killing off the player base. I think whether or not people think they want a "competitive" or "casual" game (I put those in quotations because I hate those words) they want to be challenged.  No matter if they accept that or vehemently despise that statement I believe it to be true.

 

In the same way Halo attempted to water itself down and the player retention dumped on itself we've seen the player retention grow again as Halo 5 starts to step back into integrity.  Meaning, guns that shoot straight. An actual semblance of skill and thought, etc.

I believe it is possible to have much mental skill and no mechanical skill (mobas, top down games that require little input precision but high mental play) as well as having high mechanical skill with essentially no mental skill (Gears of War) but the games that have both are the ones that truly last.

I believe in the same way we've seen Halo dip over the years with the loss of integrity you can see that exact same behavior in just about every game franchise on Earth.  Halo, Gears, Quake, Counter Strike, Smash Bros, Street Fighter, Dota, Dark Souls, everything.  It's an insanely recognizable pattern once you learn to look for it.

 

I believe it doesn't matter if people think they LOVE a game, their mind very much might hate it.  I have never seen a single person or youtuber say anything bad about titanfall, it's always "It's the best shooter of this generation" and yet no one is playing it.  I would tell you that even I love titanfall, but I never play it.  Which tells me that I probably don't actually  like titanfall, I just think that I like it.  In the same way I recognize that Siege has an insane amount of mechanical and mental skill but I can't stand how slow 1-life games are, I would probably tell you that I hate it.  But I know, without a doubt, that if I sat there and made myself play Siege I would probably end up loving it.  Because I'm a human being and I value the same feelings of integrity, and skill, and overcoming challenge, and fair growth that everoyne else does.  I think people more likely have dispositions to think they enjoy different things, but at the heart of it we all value the same things.  Otherwise there wouldn't be very recognizable patterns and trends to follow - not just in game design but everything.  Art, music, writing, movies, everything.

 

Westin posted this link a few pages back but you should take a look at it

https://blog.wolfram.com/2015/11/18/aspect-ratios-in-art-what-is-better-than-being-golden-being-plastic-rooted-or-just-rational-investigating-aspect-ratios-of-old-vs-modern-paintings/

It essentially is a mass study on all renowned paintings throughout history and finds that they not only share similarities, but they actually have more-or-less the same exact aspect ratios and composition to one another down to the decimals.

Golden-ratio.png

Graphic-showing-sequence.png

Mona-Lisa-and-the-Golden-Rectangle.png

Example-of-retrieved-data.png

Images-ordered-by-their-aspect-ratio.png

 

They are all the same.  In that same way if you delve into writing you'll find that the "winning formula" isn't so much a formula as it is a set of principles that guide the greatest works of literature.  It is entirely possible to deviate from these but history shows that this formula, whatever it is, creates timeless works that resonate with people in ways they don't even realize.  

This too is true of musical composition, and the writing of songs down to lyrics or time signatures or melodies.  It's all the same thing.  

Which brings me to my ultimate point in that I think it is all rooted in the same foundational truth that everything that wishes to be successful, and timeless, and resonate with people in a way that they're not consciously aware of it needs to honor this integrity.  Whatever that is fro medium to medium obviously needs to be defined uniquely but they all seem to share in a common truth.


For games, I could honestly give two shits if someone told me that they loved Halo 4 and hated the rest of the Halo's and I was being rude for disregarding their opinions - it means nothing to me.  Because the game was bad, and if it wasn't bad it would've held players better.  it really is as simple as that sometimes.  And I'm willing to bet that outside of the odd one in a million, all those people who claim they LOVED Halo 4, didn't actually love Halo 4.  They might have thought they loved Halo 4, but in all reality they likely played less than the other more devoted fans who hated it. You ever notice it's the turds on reddit who come in and say "Hey I FOR ONE LOVED Halo 4, I just came back to it after not playing it for a year and I ad a TON of fun. You guys complain too much." Well, if you loved it so much why did you stop playing lmao it's like driving through Pasadena to get Roscoes Chicken and Waffles and going "yeah this place is pretty good" and then never coming back. If it was truly good, they would've stayed.  If Titanfall was truly the best FPS of the generation, people would have kept playing it. But they didn't, because it's not a good game at the fundamental level (at least from what I believe) because it undermines the principles of integrity. Good things invite us to stay, to listen to them over and over and over and each time it doesn't get stale but instead you understand it better.

 

I believe once someone understands this you can begin to create and design things that resonate with people in ways they can't verbalize.  Because most great things don't instantly scream out for attention to you, they are subtle. And if you instantly love it, it'll probably fade away just as quickly as it came.  it's like creating an Ariana Grande pop song vs the Moonlight Sonata.  No one is going to be in their car hyping to the moonlight sonata but you can bet your ass it'll still be relevant in 100 years, just as Tolkien's work is. Just as the best games will be relevant (not as long, but still longer relative to the industry).  I don't have to consciously love listening to Beethoven to accept that the unusual progressions and melodies are probably hitting deeper parts of my mind than I realize, whether or not I get as hyped to it as I would something from Kanye or Kendrick. Game design is just as much philosophy as everyone other medium and just as exploitable.  And in the same way human nature is to crave quicker, and quicker forms of pleasure and satisfaction in simpler music, in easier to digest movies, games too show this same pattern. The industry becomes dumber and dumber until it's about who can create the most immediate form of satisfaction with the least effort possible- but that's not how people's brains work.   But every now and then someone comes out with a product, a book, a song that is so brilliant that it jump starts everyone's standards back to where they should be.  I think this was Dark Souls 10 years ago, as it's easily become the most influential game for all developers in the last decade in a sea of generic shit. And through it's precedent a hundred other pieces of AAA work have been created with clear and direct omage to what was what I think, the best game of all time Dark Souls 1.

 

I don't mean to sound conceited or dismissive, but at some point I need to believe that if the right decisions are to be made for longevity you just have to accept that things are not subjective - not really.  Even if the decision is so unbelievably ambiguously close to each other, like should this map be dark and foggy or clear. Green or Blue.. that doesn't make it subjective.  I believe that buried somewhere in that decision there IS a correct choice that would down the road many years later, lead to better memories and fonder thoughts that would never happened if Bungie had made Valhalla look like thisi7Tn1.jpg

 

instead of this

Halo3_Valhalla-env-01.jpg

 

I'm sure many people out there would tell you that top picture is subjetively better but I dont think it is.  I think Halo 3's has colors that are more defined, a clearly palatable emotional tone, I can hear the picture. Halo 4's is just visual noise.  And it wouldn't matter to me if someone swore they loved the Halo 4 version more, deep down in their psyche their mind wouldn't.

 

And if I don't believe something as subtle as color tones are subjective then I certainly don't believe something as important as a utility weapon is subjective.  I objectively believe the CE pistol is the better weapon because I think the very idea of the further seperated perfect/average kill times speak to the principle of mechanical itnegrity more than the Halo 5 pistol ever would, that stacked with the projectile nature and bullet sway and from what I can tell is lower aim assist, I think make it a timeless weapon.  Halo 5's is not. I hope that makes some semblance of sense.

 

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21 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

CE, given even perfect conditions, has randomness to the gun. And that's not even factoring in bullet sway or leading or the enemy strafe.

IMO I can live with 0.2° of spread but my gun does twice as much damage and doesn't have to constantly reload. I don't think the spread is that much of a factor, more so the complete ass-cancer hitreg on MCC CE.

 

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Look in sorry to disregard everything you said but you just stated that color preference isn't subjective. No offense like honestly I don't want to sound rude but there is no reason to ever argue with you on anything. If you genuinely believe that colors have objective truth. But yes thank you for saying that about the CE pistol as well. Because I know now that it's a waste of time to argue. Because you're soooooo far in the opposite direction of beliefs from me. 

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4 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Look in sorry to disregard everything you said but you just stated that color preference isn't subjective. No offense like honestly I don't want to sound rude but there is no reason to ever argue with you on anything. If you genuinely believe that colors have objective truth. But yes thank you for saying that about the CE pistol as well. Because I know now that it's a waste of time to argue. Because you're soooooo far in the opposite direction of beliefs from me. 

Choosing your favorite color is subjective.  What saturation the colors should be within an environment to sell a unified tone and message is not.  Making a hell map would be better done with harsh reds than soft pinks. That's the line of reasoning here. Im willing to bet many years down the road not a single person is going to remember what Ragnorak looked like. Valhalla is burned into your memory the moment you see it. I would say Valhalla is objectivel artistically better for that reason.

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