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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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16 hours ago, Silos said:

I could be wrong if they updated things. But last I checked playlists are not ordered in terms of popularity.

In terms of finding ranked matches. I thought you could only find games with people ranked within ten levels of you, if you're in a party it's within ten levels of your highest ranked player. So in your case if I'm correct, you can match between level 6 and level 26. Ogre 2 said he thought H1 2v2 was the exception and you could match within 20 levels, in my experience so far that hasn't been the case.

Matching with people within ten levels is somewhat new, I want to say it was put in place late last year but I'm not sure.

Playlists don't move so it's definitely not ordered based on population or anything other than the whim of the designers. There could be different parameters on different playlists depending on average population, but back when Lone Wolves was still a thing I matched a 50 at level 1, so my guess is the search system starts with parameters in mind but gradually expands as search times increase. H2 HC is so low population that I just don't think you'll consistently find matches. Same with H2A HC. I hear 2v2 CE is similar though I haven't tried searching it recently.

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8 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I think the general idea is okay except for the part where the Halo community missed the opportunity a long, long time ago. People have been allowed to play such divergent versions of the same game and series and compete with each other that at this point you would just be losing fans by not providing the entire experience they're accustomed to having. Think about how much it sucked to be a BTB kid in H5 or a competitive player in H4. It is not fun when your section is the one left out. They still haven't actually delivered a full experience to match H3 or Reach and if we start pushing them to not focus so much on all of the little things and instead have one really good ranked playlist I'm afraid we'll see that happen to almost everyone. There is also the example we were given with Halo 5 competitive settings in the first couple years that showed that change and obvious improvements need not apply in a timely fashion so I'm afraid of what kind of playlist we actually get as the sole ranked option if we went that route. I promise it won't be the playlist anyone here wanted so be careful what you ask for.

Why do these players need a ranked swat, snipers, or team slayer? The whole point of a 1 ranked game mode is to acually improve st the game the right way. If you can’t play objective but our some god at slayer, you’re not that useful. A hidden mmr is fine, but clearly these other games are doing something right when it comes to their ranking. The solo rank would be HCS only. This separates the boys/girls from the men/women.

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1 hour ago, HeX Reapers said:

Autos being good against vehicles would be great.

Needle Rifle - supercombines explode in vehicles

Sentinel Beam - radiation cooks vehicle occupants

What other ways could autos combat vehicles?

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10 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Needle Rifle - supercombines explode in vehicles

Sentinel Beam - radiation cooks vehicle occupants

What other ways could autos combat vehicles?

1. Needle rifle is a dmr.

2. Storm rifle/plasma rifle could destroy a vehicles shields very quickly.

3. The fourrunner ar could automatically target a vehicles weak spots. 

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34 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Why do these players need a ranked swat, snipers, or team slayer? The whole point of a 1 ranked game mode is to acually improve st the game the right way. If you can’t play objective but our some god at slayer, you’re not that useful. A hidden mmr is fine, but clearly these other games are doing something right when it comes to their ranking. The solo rank would be HCS only. This separates the boys/girls from the men/women.

This doesn't work in the MCC due to the aspect of multiple games being played, but for Infinity I would not have a problem with it. The issue you run into is that there is certainly a population (see Waypoint forums) of people who cry foul if their favorite playlist (swat, snipers, FFA, radar slayer, doubles, etc.) doesn't have a ranked playlist aligned to it. 

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10 hours ago, Arlong said:

Okkkkk but why? Maybe in Halo CE they were but evidence shows 4s is better for basically every halo after ce. And my reason for one ranked mode was because it’s the hcs settings. Now I did add the exception of doubles or ffa but only if tournaments are in the plan. It be far better if one ranked playlist was what we used. This is the case in CS, league, Dota, overwatch. This clearly works better than 5 different ranked modes. Nothin says loser than only being good at slayer. 

 

10 hours ago, logan said:

Maybe for halo 1 yea. But in the other halo games, 4s is pretty much considered more skillful since you're tracking so many players. Probably because the individual skill gap is low in all the games after halo 1 so the teamwork skill gap is what sets ppl apart.

If anything 4's showed how shallow the player count is compared to 2's.  If it were truly more skillful to track 4 players on (and 3 of your own) then we might as well jump all the way up to Big Team as the pinnacle of competition.  It's not a ratio where individual skill drops therefore team skill rises.  You can absolutely lose of either and gain nothing in return.  CE has both more individualism and teamwork oriented gameplay than anything that followed, and ironically, the best way to compensate for shit kill times and weapons that we saw in later installments of Halo is to drop the player count and not reduce the potential for massive team shot.  Any setup becomes more difficult to execute when you've only got half the players to man the positions. The only reason you think 4's ended up working out is because it's what we've followed for the past decade, in an alternate reality if Halo was a 5v5 game most people would likely be singing the praise of 5's.  Look beyond the precedent - 4v4 isn't even a conducive player count for any multi sided objective.  You could make an argument for KoTH or Oddball but neither of those are played in rotation competitively anymore (unless they are, in which case don't crucify me. Haven't followed pro H5 in a while).

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51 minutes ago, II AdamanT II said:

This doesn't work in the MCC due to the aspect of multiple games being played, but for Infinity I would not have a problem with it. The issue you run into is that there is certainly a population (see Waypoint forums) of people who cry foul if their favorite playlist (swat, snipers, FFA, radar slayer, doubles, etc.) doesn't have a ranked playlist aligned to it. 

Would of made more sense if I added my one ranked idea to the infinite topic. Thats what I’m mainly talking about. 

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26 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

 

If anything 4's showed how shallow the player count is compared to 2's.  If it were truly more skillful to track 4 players on (and 3 of your own) then we might as well jump all the way up to Big Team as the pinnacle of competition.  It's not a ratio where individual skill drops therefore team skill rises.  You can absolutely lose of either and gain nothing in return.  CE has both more individualism and teamwork oriented gameplay than anything that followed, and ironically, the best way to compensate for shit kill times and weapons that we saw in later installments of Halo is to drop the player count and not reduce the potential for massive team shot.  Any setup becomes more difficult to execute when you've only got half the players to man the positions. The only reason you think 4's ended up working out is because it's what we've followed for the past decade, in an alternate reality if Halo was a 5v5 game most people would likely be singing the praise of 5's.  Look beyond the precedent - 4v4 isn't even a conducive player count for any multi sided objective.  You could make an argument for KoTH or Oddball but neither of those are played in rotation competitively anymore (unless they are, in which case don't crucify me. Haven't followed pro H5 in a while).

Oddball is. 

Perhaps individuality isn’t the thing we’re looking for. Individually skilled plays can be made out, and overall 4s is far more fun to watch. And you’re probably right about I think 4s works because it’s what we followed. Also most maps in halo have been built with 4s in mind.  “Look beyond the precedent” the same could be said for those who love doubles. It just doesn’t work like it had in ce. In ce you have power weapons and power ups coming up every 60 seconds, this promotes map movement. Overall though slayer is boring to watch in all honesty and 2v2 obj doesn’t work. If a slayer game gets to a score of 40/25, there’s no way to make a comeback against competent players. But in a ctf game where the enemy team has 2 or 4 caps on you, there’s a decent to strong chance of making a comeback happen. 

Halos been out for 18 years and even in the most individually skilled halo game(CE) doubles OBJ is terrible.

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3 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Oddball is. 

Perhaps individuality isn’t the thing we’re looking for. Individually skilled plays can be made out, and overall 4s is far more fun to watch. And you’re probably right about I think 4s works because it’s what we followed. Also most maps in halo have been built with 4s in mind. 

You're right about the maps having to be built for 4's - purpose built 2v2 maps have way different pathing styles and density. As for the spectatorship; have you ever watched a lower player count esport? It's much easier to comprehend what's happening through a single perspective.

 

Biggest drawback to 2's is that objective doesn't really work. Somewhat forced into doing Slayer, which I personally don't have an issue with but I know many do.

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

Why do these players need a ranked swat, snipers, or team slayer? The whole point of a 1 ranked game mode is to acually improve st the game the right way. If you can’t play objective but our some god at slayer, you’re not that useful. A hidden mmr is fine, but clearly these other games are doing something right when it comes to their ranking. The solo rank would be HCS only. This separates the boys/girls from the men/women.

Nobody cares about how you want them to play the game or the "right" way in your opinion. They all just want to play the game they want to play. If we never had the option to do something else nobody would know any better but that is not the case with Halo. Halo isn't even focused on ranking or competition. We're a fringe group even within the smaller community that plays ranked modes. If they had one ranked playlist it would be the default team slayer list with a bunch of obj gametypes that have radar and autos etc and what we know as MLG/HCS settings would be dead permanently.

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12 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

Nobody cares about how you want them to play the game or the "right" way in your opinion. They all just want to play the game they want to play. If we never had the option to do something else nobody would know any better but that is not the case with Halo. Halo isn't even focused on ranking or competition. We're a fringe group even within the smaller community that plays ranked modes. If they had one ranked playlist it would be the default team slayer list with a bunch of obj gametypes that have radar and autos etc and what we know as MLG/HCS settings would be dead permanently.

Idk about that. League play in cod, ranked play in OW. The right competitive way is almost not up for debate since the right competitive way is the tournaments settings. 

 

21 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

You're right about the maps having to be built for 4's - purpose built 2v2 maps have way different pathing styles and density. As for the spectatorship; have you ever watched a lower player count esport? It's much easier to comprehend what's happening through a single perspective.

 

Biggest drawback to 2's is that objective doesn't really work. Somewhat forced into doing Slayer, which I personally don't have an issue with but I know many do.

Umm true on the perspective part. but I really admire the overwatch and cod comp scene and think halo needs to find a way to be like that. I personally don’t find slayer appealing or skillful. Heck’s call of duty doesn’t even have slayer in their comp scene. With that said they have an alternative version where it’s round based KOTH, limited lives for the whole team(30 lives). I think halo should implement this mode into halo. 

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In my ideal world infinite would release with two ranked modes. A 4v4 obj/slayer playlist and a 2v2 slayer playlist. These playlists should have settings identical to tournament settings. All other playlists would be unranked but would still have an invisible mmr for balancing teams. There would also be a global rank that you can level up with xp you get from playing any playlist. Have the ranked playlists reset with seasons every so often and continuously update the other playlists and add rotational playlists with xp bonuses to incentivize people to try them out.

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8 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Idk about that. League play in cod, ranked play in OW. The right competitive way is almost not up for debate since the right competitive way is the tournaments settings. 

 

Umm true on the perspective part. but I really admire the overwatch and cod comp scene and think halo needs to find a way to be like that. I personally don’t find slayer appealing or skillful. Heck’s call of duty doesn’t even have slayer in their comp scene. With that said they have an alternative version where it’s round based KOTH, limited lives for the whole team(30 lives). I think halo should implement this mode into halo. 

Well CoD doesn't use kill based game modes because the game is designed like shit and no one moves.  That's what happens when you have Aim Down Sight and 3 Lane maps.

 

I admire everything about the way Overwatch has been run as well, with the way they've televised and globalized their esport has been nothing short of tremendous.  That being said - as someone who has pretty consistently played the game since the beta... that game is unwatchable.  Great spectator tools and commentators make it somewhat palpable but it's nothing short of just a hodge podge of 12 man chaos and nonsense exploding on your screen at any given moment.  If find that game nearly incomprehensible I can't imagine what a normal person without the investment into the game must think. I attribute that primarily to having so many characters in your face at any given moment. Just my 2 cents.

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5 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Well CoD doesn't use kill based game modes because the game is designed like shit and no one moves.  That's what happens when you have Aim Down Sight and 3 Lane maps.

 

I admire everything about the way Overwatch has been run as well, with the way they've televised and globalized their esport has been nothing short of tremendous.  That being said - as someone who has pretty consistently played the game since the beta... that game is unwatchable.  Great spectator tools and commentators make it somewhat palpable but it's nothing short of just a hodge podge of 12 man chaos and nonsense exploding on your screen at any given moment.  If find that game nearly incomprehensible I can't imagine what a normal person without the investment into the game must think. I attribute that primarily to having so many characters in your face at any given moment. Just my 2 cents.

Do you actually play overwatch? Like most OW players love watching the comp scene. BO4 isn’t a 3 lane only map design? Have you watched any of its tournaments/league matches. Did you not watch the recent league match during the weekend for OW? The movement is crazy high in BO4. 

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1 minute ago, Arlong said:

Do you actually play overwatch? Like most OW players love watching the comp scene. BO4 isn’t a 3 lane only map design? Have you watched any of its tournaments/league matches. Did you not watch the recent league match during the weekend for OW? The movement is crazy high in BO4. 

Yes I've been playing Overwatch since the beta, again.  Not competitively but more than enough to understand the game.

 

And I made 1/4th of the launch maps in Black Ops 4.  They are all 3 lane. We weren't even allowed to build the map in the editor unless production saw the top down was a 3 lane and approved.

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6 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Yes I've been playing Overwatch since the beta, again.  Not competitively but more than enough to understand the game.

 

And I made 1/4th of the launch maps in Black Ops 4.  They are all 3 lane. We weren't even allowed to build the map in the editor unless production saw the top down was a 3 lane and approved.

So you worked on it? What maps did you design? Because they don’t exactly appear to be 3 laned except the mansion map.

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10 minutes ago, Arlong said:

So you worked on it? What maps did you design? Because they don’t exactly appear to be 3 laned except the mansion map.

I haven't played cod since maybe January so I can only recall a few maps off hand; but so many of their maps are 3 lanes, there's just buildings or water or some type of environment so it's not literally "a straight line" but it is still 3 lanes in terms of map design.

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1 minute ago, Arlong said:

So you worked on it? What maps did you design? Because they don’t exactly appear to be 3 laned except the mansion map.

We can speak privately if you have questions regarding design stuff.  Not good to talk about this stuff publicly because people love to make news articles about everything nowadays.

eX tReYaRcH dEv HaTeS 3 LaNeS?!?!?!!

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10 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

We can speak privately if you have questions regarding design stuff.  Not good to talk about this stuff publicly because people love to make news articles about everything nowadays.

eX tReYaRcH dEv HaTeS 3 LaNeS?!?!?!!

Lmao. You know your name looks familiar. I read an article on halo about you? It wasn’t exactly a positive one. I watched your YouTube series as well on how to make a good map. 

 

16 minutes ago, JordanB said:

I haven't played cod since maybe January so I can only recall a few maps off hand; but so many of their maps are 3 lanes, there's just buildings or water or some type of environment so it's not literally "a straight line" but it is still 3 lanes in terms of map design.

So it’s 3 lanes in terms of map design? That hardly makes much sense. I remember cod WW2 had plenty of those and they sucked. Maybe it was just done better in BO4. I find bo4s fast paced movement to be a nice touch. 

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2 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Lmao. You know your name looks familiar. I read an article on halo about you? It wasn’t exactly a positive one. I watched your YouTube series as well on how to make a good map. 

 

So it’s 3 lanes in terms of map design? That hardly makes much sense. I remember cod WW2 had plenty of those and they sucked. Maybe it was just done better in BO4. I find bo4s fast paced movement to be a nice touch. 

Yeah there were many articles floating around about me surrounding that whole 343 debacle.  Many people took the opportunity to create their own stories and reasons as to why it happened, true or not. r/halo played a pretty big role in spreading a lot of those lies.

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5 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

I enjoyed using the Halo 5 SMG, and I didn't mind when it was used against me. One of the few decent things about that game IMO. You could actually make a play with it. There would be no complaints from me if that SMG became the starting auto weapon, provided that it came with an equally competent utility weapon and not the lolH5magnum.

I can't take this seriously because either way you swing it, the SMG sucks. It was a complete cheesy melter on launch, more than the AR, and post-Overtime it absolutely sucks. You would make plays with it in the same way you'd make plays with a SAW, lol. One of the most braindead weapons in the game, and you thought it was one of the few decent things? Yeaaaaaaaaaah, okay.

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1 minute ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I can't take this seriously because either way you swing it, the SMG sucks. It was a complete cheesy melter on launch, more than the AR, and post-Overtime it absolutely sucks. You would make plays with it in the same way you'd make plays with a SAW, lol. One of the most braindead weapons in the game, and you thought it was one of the few decent things? Yeaaaaaaaaaah, okay.

lol the launch SMG was the most op auto ever. Saw is acceptable because it’s a power weapon.

 

2 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I can't take this seriously because either way you swing it, the SMG sucks. It was a complete cheesy melter on launch, more than the AR, and post-Overtime it absolutely sucks. You would make plays with it in the same way you'd make plays with a SAW, lol. One of the most braindead weapons in the game, and you thought it was one of the few decent things? Yeaaaaaaaaaah, okay.

That really is unfortunate. I personally don’t like asymmetrical maps, but that’s just me. They’re only acceptable in obj modes in my eyes. I’ve always found guardian to be a good designed map, although for slayer it obviously isn’t that great.

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In response to the SAW being fine by saying it is a power weapon, power weapons should not be easy to use. They should be the hardest weapons to use OR come with a lot of risks

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2 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

 

If anything 4's showed how shallow the player count is compared to 2's.  If it were truly more skillful to track 4 players on (and 3 of your own) then we might as well jump all the way up to Big Team as the pinnacle of competition.  It's not a ratio where individual skill drops therefore team skill rises.  You can absolutely lose of either and gain nothing in return.  CE has both more individualism and teamwork oriented gameplay than anything that followed, and ironically, the best way to compensate for shit kill times and weapons that we saw in later installments of Halo is to drop the player count and not reduce the potential for massive team shot.

I was thinking a bit about something the other day, and would love to hear your perspective. This triggered the thought again.

For individual skill, I feel it's pretty easy to determine an individual aspect. Like if you miss more shots in one game compared to another assuming the same input method, it's probably harder to aim. If you mess up your movement more, it's probably harder to move.

But how would you "measure" teamwork skill? My current understanding would suggest that it's too abstract to judge or purposefully design for. But if I purposefully wanted to make a game have a higher focus on teamwork, would you have certain things you would measure or plan for to do this?

If I had to guess, I would suggest that you would measure the amount of opportunities you had to assist a teammate. Be a distraction, give information, offer firepower, give a spawn, whatever. But in my suggestion, teamwork skill immediately goes up by adding more people, but I don't think MAG's 128v128 necessarily has a high teamwork skill gap just because it has significantly more people than Halo 2v2.

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