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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Just now, Boyo said:

We all use the same vibrator.

That's just nasty.

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2 hours ago, arglactable said:

These conversations would be a lot more productive if you didn't seem to believe that every notion you have about anything is some kind of objective truth, when the reality is that most of what you consider inherently more skillful is just (coincidently, I'm sure) what you happen to like.
 

Lecturing me on the productivity of conversation when every post you make sets a precedent of a string of insults followed by actual content [if any] is a little ironic no.

I don't believe that something becomes the objective truth because I believe it.  I believe there is an objective truth on what is better, and worse, and I try to form my understanding around that standard. Whether it's art, music, movies, writing, and in this case - game design - there is almost always a truth to be found regarding what the correct decision is to make in the context of something. And I think most people subconsciously realize this and act accordingly, otherwise we wouldn't see trends in just about... everything ever created.  Why are you even replying if it truly is opinion based? if that's the end all be-all why discuss anything?  I'll just say that I think that we should 3d aim in video games using the ABXY buttons and that's my opinion, end of conversation.  Clearly we all recognize that there's a goal to be had and some things resonate better with humans than others, some people just interpret that truth more clearly [not a jab].

 

2 hours ago, arglactable said:

"If it becomes easier to execute with additional information that should tell you that the difficulty never originated from the skill required to execute it in the first place, but rather from a lack of information. "

This is an assertion. This is not a fact. It's not an argument. It's your OPINION. And if it were just that, there wouldn't be a problem. But it isn't just that, because you continually confuse your opinions with facts and as a result seemingly don't see any reason that you need to support those opinions with actual facts or arguments. In every single one of these discussions, you make multiple statements like this without ever justifying them in any meaningful way, as if they were simply observations of objective reality. And when called out on it, you repeat yourself as if people were incapable of reading. But let's get objective about this.

That's not a fact or an opinion, it's just a line of reasoning.  I could probably challenge you to play guitar hero without the track showing what notes are coming, it would be more "difficult" in the sense that the ambiguity would render it nearly impossible.  The actual guitar hero "skill" whatever that is, is not more or less difficult.  It's the same - press these buttons in the right time relative to each other.  Whether or not I show you what that exact timing is, is something else entirely.

 

2 hours ago, arglactable said:

Timing is a skill. Being able to consistently hit exactly the same timing without some Simon says indicator on your screen or in your hands requires practice to develop consistency and is by definition a learned skill. And, in actuality, there IS 100% consistent feedback for spring-jumping: a successful spring jump. Pressing a button when the game tells you to inherently requires less knowledge and less coordination. But let's go back to your claim:

A successful spring jump isn't feedback, it's the result of doing a spring jump. Feedback for shooting your gun wouldn't be the health bar on the other player's screen depleting, it would be seeing your gun kick on your screen. Seeing the muzzle flash.  Hearing the bullets fire.  Seeing blood come out of the enemy.  That's feedback. I'm making the argument that vibration can be used in a hundred ways to better convey information that is either incredibly hidden or not given to you at all, not do it for you.

 

2 hours ago, arglactable said:

So, given this assertion, I'm sure that you would agree that, since projectile lead would become easier with an on-screen lead estimate and/or target distance indicators in your HUD, the difficulty never originated from the skill required to lead your shots in the first place, but rather from a lack of information. Or maybe your assertion about where "the skill" originated is arbitrary gibberish.

This is probably your best argument. 

I don't think it's parallel because the skill in projectile is not simply knowing it exists, it's executing on it. Proper projectile "feedback" is seeing the bullet travel through the air, and if you're a good studio you've properly invested money into tracer rounds and bullet trails to make the effect of an actual moving bullet obvious. Treyarch for example invested about a $million+ for Blackout because it literally was not obvious to half the studio that shot leading was now in Call of Duty.  Once the vfx for tracer rounds were implemented lethality went up; not because it made it easier to shoot.  But because it just told them what they needed to know and already had to skill to execute on.

In this case regarding crouch rumbles preceding, any piece of information really, it's because they're ambiguous mechanics that have little to no explanation.  You're not holding the action waiting for the player to press it, you're just showing when.  It's up to them to execute on it.

By your own mouth you've said you'd rather have everything conveyed through visual/audio feedback; yet literally none exists for spring jumping and about a hundred other mechanics in a dozen games off the top of my head.  Can you think of a better way to convey timing for actions like this? Because you'd be hard pressed to find something more subtle / less intrusive than a controller rumble.  Especially considering...you know....you can disable it.

I'll level with you and say that I suppose I could consider the ambiguity in feeling out the releasing timing and replicating it as a skill, but it pretty obviously plays second fiddle to the actual mechanical skill of the execution.  And perhaps an even greater challenge would be conveying these mechanics properly to the player base at wide and now playing against people who are now knowledgeable enough to utilize them with / against you. Whatever 'skill' is lost by conveying the timing to execute an action will easily by made up by now having to perform against players utilizing it on a global scale.

 

EDIT: Quake gives people the option to put a speedometer under your reticle, I can't even begin to convey how useful this was when I was learning to strafe jump; being able to tell what is actually accelerating my movement.  It did not make it easier to do, it just told me what was happening. This is about as close of a parallel as I can think of. I dunno, maybe your reticle could have an indicator or opacity shift while crouched to better show the state you're in, and then recognize when to press the jump button. It's hard to imagine very many ways to visually or audibly convey a lot of information that should be done more subtlety.  It's like a hierarchy of importance that goes visual > audio > physical.

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What's the deal with MCC Insider for Reach and PC, any updates or news? Last I heard is that this month was likely to have the testing.

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One thing I think we can all agree on is a moonboots powerup that furuther legitimizes spring jumping. I wonder what the audio visual feedback would be on that... Maybe throw in a juicy optional pad rumble?

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4 hours ago, Teapot said:

I'm not even sure how much vibe there is on the OG controller.

I think that you make some good arguments in this post and I use the vibration for similar reasons, but I wanted to comment on this specific quote.

I remember back in the day being able to hear an OG Xbox controller vibrate violently from across the room lol. Nowadays I have to stop and take a moment to do so up close with one of the Xbox One controllers. I would think that they have definitely refined the engineering IMO.

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3 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Lecturing me on the productivity of conversation when every post you make sets a precedent of a string of insults followed by actual content [if any] is a little ironic no.

Tone policing is a chicken shit move. I did not insult you once in the previous post. Even if I did, it's not an excuse to pretend there was no substance, which is largely untrue of most of the posts that people on here ignore because someone was being a meanie while having the wrong opinions. Of course, this kind of passive aggression from you and other forum regulars is considered very mature and totally different from actually insulting someone directly like an adult.

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I don't believe that something becomes the objective truth because I believe it.  I believe there is an objective truth on what is better, and worse, and I try to form my understanding around that standard. Whether it's art, music, movies, writing, and in this case - game design - there is almost always a truth to be found regarding what the correct decision is to make in the context of something. And I think most people subconsciously realize this and act accordingly, otherwise we wouldn't see trends in just about... everything ever created.  Why are you even replying if it truly is opinion based? if that's the end all be-all why discuss anything?  I'll just say that I think that we should 3d aim in video games using the ABXY buttons and that's my opinion, end of conversation.  Clearly we all recognize that there's a goal to be had and some things resonate better with humans than others, some people just interpret that truth more clearly [not a jab].

That's a laudable goal in theory, but there isn't and there never will be objective truth outside of mathematics and physics. That is the nature of the arts and humanities. The only way you're going to reach any semblance of an objective standard given such a complex, situational issue (design) is by making incredibly reductive assumptions about what is or is not desirable. The lack of a verifiable objective standard has no relation whatsoever to the utility of debate. In fact, it's exactly WHY debate is useful. Not all opinions are created equal, but more than one can be valid. And this is exactly the issue I'm talking about. Different people like different games for different reasons. Different games have different design goals and different approaches for accomplishing them. Patently ridiculous extremes like aiming with the face buttons have nothing to do with that fact.

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That's not a fact or an opinion, it's just a line of reasoning.  I could probably challenge you to play guitar hero without the track showing what notes are coming, it would be more "difficult" in the sense that the ambiguity would render it nearly impossible.  The actual guitar hero "skill" whatever that is, is not more or less difficult.  It's the same - press these buttons in the right time relative to each other.  Whether or not I show you what that exact timing is, is something else entirely.

It's a line or reasoning that relies on premises that you never demonstrated. You do this all the time and don't seem to realize it, since the Guitar Hero example you provided is EXACTLY that again. You haven't established what reductive personal definition of "skill" you're using and yet you've gone right ahead and suggested that without the primary defining visual information of the entire game, the skill required would be unchanged. Not only is that not an assertion you've supported in any real way, but it's absurd. Of course Guitar Hero would be more difficult without the visuals it was literally designed around and assuming there is enough feedback remaining to do much but press random buttons, if would require more skill to succeed consistently. It would also be a vastly less enjoyable game, but that is another issue entirely.

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A successful spring jump isn't feedback, it's the result of doing a spring jump. Feedback for shooting your gun wouldn't be the health bar on the other player's screen depleting, it would be seeing your gun kick on your screen. Seeing the muzzle flash.  Hearing the bullets fire.  Seeing blood come out of the enemy.  That's feedback. I'm making the argument that vibration can be used in a hundred ways to better convey information that is either incredibly hidden or not given to you at all, not do it for you.

Literally all of the things you listed are feedback. They are direct, consistent, identifiable results of your actions that you can use to judge your success. They all serve the same communicative function in that capacity. You are again operating with an arbitrary definition that you never outlined. What you have rightly identified is that "successful spring jump" is not very SPECIFIC feedback. I understand what your argument is, but what I'm telling you is that NOT providing information or providing less means requiring more of the player. It makes the game harder. Sometimes that difficulty is desirable and sometimes it isn't, but to suggest that it simply has no impact on the skill requirement is ridiculous.

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This is probably your best argument.

It's the only argument I made.

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I don't think it's parallel because the skill in projectile is not simply knowing it exists, it's executing on it. Proper projectile "feedback" is seeing the bullet travel through the air, and if you're a good studio you've properly invested money into tracer rounds and bullet trails to make the effect of an actual moving bullet obvious. Treyarch for example invested about a $million+ for Blackout because it literally was not obvious to half the studio that shot leading was now in Call of Duty.  Once the vfx for tracer rounds were implemented lethality went up; not because it made it easier to shoot.  But because it just told them what they needed to know and already had to skill to execute on.

This is what I mean by personal preference. You don't think it's parallel, despite the two examples being functionally identical, because you like the element of difficulty and/or "skill" that the same basic principle introduces to one and not the other. I think that is a fair argument to have, but both impact the skill requirement. The part of the spring jump that you don't think has any relation to "skill" is exactly what arguably makes projectile weapons more difficult to aim. It is ambiguous and the player has to infer that missing information with what they ARE given.

And no, it absolutely did make it easier to shoot. I don't even understand how you would think it doesn't (or would think that such a claim requires no real explanation). If you can clearly see where your bullets have gone, you can make adjustments much more easily. If you can't, then your only feedback on where your bullets went is HIT or MISS (assuming some sort of hit indicator).

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In this case regarding crouch rumbles preceding, any piece of information really, it's because they're ambiguous mechanics that have little to no explanation.  You're not holding the action waiting for the player to press it, you're just showing when.  It's up to them to execute on it.

Part of the execution is knowing the timing and being able to identify it consistently based on the existing feedback in the game. If you explicitly tell them the timing, that is making execution easier. There is a fundamental difference between knowing when to release a button based on experience, muscle memory, and context and knowing when the release a button because the game explicitly tells you when to press a button. The question here is not WHETHER it makes it easier. It is whether making it easier in that way is desirable. The answer to that is largely subjective, as the responses on this issue have clearly indicated.

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By your own mouth you've said you'd rather have everything conveyed through visual/audio feedback; yet literally none exists for spring jumping and about a hundred other mechanics in a dozen games off the top of my head.  Can you think of a better way to convey timing for actions like this? Because you'd be hard pressed to find something more subtle / less intrusive than a controller rumble.  Especially considering...you know....you can disable it.

Having this feedback rumble exclusive is only part of the issue. I absolutely think that would be problematic. Not only do I never play with rumble on, I generally have no interest in playing FPS games with a controller. But that's not really the issue I'm addressing here. I'm addressing the erroneous claim that giving the player more explicit, specific feedback doesn't make things easier and the accompanying assumption that achieving consistency with less information doesn't require more SKILL. And further, I would suggest that ambiguity can be a good thing. Not all aspects of a game need to be explained in exhaustive detail, as was less common before modern AAA had current cookie cutter game design best practices and overbearing UX that basically assume their player base has a double digit IQ and the attention span of a walnut. That is particularly true of niche, emergent mechanics like spring jump. Maybe some things are best left to be discovered by the players. Players who care will figure it out. The players who don't (the majority of the population) will not notice or care about niche rumble feedback, just as I'm sure most controller players in Apex aren't terribly concerned about optimal slide velocity or the rumble that indicates that.

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I'll level with you and say that I suppose I could consider the ambiguity in feeling out the releasing timing and replicating it as a skill, but it pretty obviously plays second fiddle to the actual mechanical skill of the execution.  And perhaps an even greater challenge would be conveying these mechanics properly to the player base at wide and now playing against people who are now knowledgeable enough to utilize them with / against you. Whatever 'skill' is lost by conveying the timing to execute an action will easily by made up by now having to perform against players utilizing it on a global scale.

I don't think that's obvious at all. If the game gave you a clear, specific indicator of when to do it, it would be vastly easier to learn and to execute consistently. Execution is not just about reflexes. Whether that difference in difficulty is actually desirable is the point of contention. The same question  for explaining every emergent mechanic in the game to the player-base.

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3 hours ago, Boyo said:

You could argue that sound is even bigger advantage and more abusable through monetary upgrades.  Surround sound, headphones can improve your ability process directional sound which is a constant, significant advantage.

 

Everyone has a controller.  We all use the same vibrator.

Your first paragraph actually makes a decent point. But then, uh, you could have a better choice of words for that last bit.

So that is why so many people decline to use it... It all makes sense now because I wouldn't blame them, lol.

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15 minutes ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

Your first paragraph actually makes a decent point. 

So that is why so many people decline to use it...

"You could argue that sound is even bigger advantage and more abusable through monetary upgrades.  Surround sound, headphones can improve your ability process directional sound which is a constant, significant advantage."

so many people decline to use it because its impossible to measure its advantage and people who actually play FPS games dont prefer it over basic R/L stereo

 

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4 minutes ago, cH_ said:

"You could argue that sound is even bigger advantage and more abusable through monetary upgrades.  Surround sound, headphones can improve your ability process directional sound which is a constant, significant advantage."

so many people decline to use it because its impossible to measure its advantage and people who actually play FPS games dont prefer it over basic R/L stereo

 

Uh, my second paragraph was actually a joke response to Boyo's cringy wording on his last sentence, not to his original point lol.

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1 minute ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

Uh, my second paragraph was actually a joke response to Boyo's cringy wording on his last sentence, not to his original point lol.

trU, an honest mix up to be sure, traveler. you still agree with his original post though, lol.

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4 hours ago, Boyo said:

Everyone has a controller.  We all use the same vibrator.

So that is why so many people decline to use it... It all makes sense now because I wouldn't blame them, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jeez, that is what I meant, lol.

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2 minutes ago, cH_ said:

trU, an honest mix up to be sure, traveler. you still agree with his original post though, lol.

Eh, ish? I mean sound investment is a bigger advantage for those that can afford better stuff, which isn't exactly wrong with how loud most devs make sounds, and especially footsteps, these days.

I could see how one could argue that the above definitely matters more for game performance than of vibration. Of which I agree that the(if any) advantage it holds can't necessarily be measured. Part of why I believe that it is a non-issue, at worst.

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8 hours ago, arglactable said:

there isn't and there never will be objective truth outside of mathematics and physics.

Physics? No.

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23 hours ago, Nokt said:

Can't believe I'm about to like a Boyo post. 

I'm telling you dude, he was a caterpillar, went away for a while into his cocoon, and now he's a beautiful butterfly. 

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9 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

Physics? No.

Don't forget math

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23 hours ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

 

Unless you have a nervous shaky hand condition (which I could understand), vibration literally physically throwing off your aim just seems like a myth to me, assuming you have fresh equipment and can stay calm. I can totally understand vibration just being outright obnoxiously distracting though, or even startling people and causing them to jump/flinch from it. But then that is a personal preference that extends to a lot of things.

Exaggeratingly Ignorant assumption tho. Do you block Flick your stick around all abruptly? Like do you play with high Stick deadzone and make twitchy movements? because i dont. Legit nah dog i play on 0 deadzone on any game that allows me to. I constantly leave my thumb on stick gliding and surfing it around in weird angles and positions almost like a thumb moving a mouse pointer. Constantly diagonally aiming and whatnot. I dont grid aim at all and i dont even necessarily use movement stick to adjust accuracy either. I just twitch my right thumb. Absolute micro movements. If you do what i do then vibration DOES impact my aim. Unless you have some sturdy metal mitts there

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2 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I'm telling you dude, he was a caterpillar, went away for a while into his cocoon, and now he's a beautiful butterfly. 

giphy.gif

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21 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

Don't forget math

Math has proofs dependent on the axioms they're built from and proofs are true by definition, so you could say math has objective truth. Those truths aren't necessarily profound or descriptive of reality, however. Physics on the other hand has theories that must be falsifiable by definition, and thus can never be objective truth. There are also a slew of laws but many break down in the right circumstances which indicates that those laws are incomplete descriptions of phenomena.

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11 minutes ago, RVG E Nomini said:

Math has proofs dependent on the axioms they're built from and proofs are true by definition, so you could say math has objective truth. Those truths aren't necessarily profound or descriptive of reality, however. Physics on the other hand has theories that must be falsifiable by definition, and thus can never be objective truth. There are also a slew of laws but many break down in the right circumstances which indicates that those laws are incomplete descriptions of phenomena.

This is correct, yes, but it doesn't really have any impact at all on the argument I was making. I suspect you knew exactly what I intended. "Good design" can't be expressed as a mathematical proof OR as a repeatable, falsifiable theory. At best, you can establish vague principles, but those are still intrinsically dependent on culture, experience, and personal preference.

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Before Reach launches on the MCC. Just remember two(?) of the Covenant's weaponry outright tell you how to lead your shots, you can hold four nades, the maps are garbage, armor abilities, and above fucking all, it has flinch and currently untoggleable vibration.

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12 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Before Reach launches on the MCC. Just remember two(?) of the Covenant's weaponry outright tell you how to lead your shots, you can hold four nades, the maps are garbage, armor abilities, and above fucking all, it has flinch and currently untoggleable vibration.

Flinch? The hell you talking about woman? Also think it's the repeater that tells you, maybe the plasma rifle as well but I don't remember.

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8 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

Flinch? The hell you talking about woman? Also think it's the repeater that tells you, maybe the plasma rifle as well but I don't remember.

When you get hit by an auto, and the magnum (Pretty sure it can be done with more) at a rapid fire pace, you'll have your reticle kicked upwards. This discounts screenshake and obstruction. Which also occurs, lol.

The repeater and plasma pistol tell you shot leading.

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15 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

When you get hit by an auto, and the magnum (Pretty sure it can be done with more) at a rapid fire pace, you'll have your reticle kicked upwards. This discounts screenshake and obstruction. Which also occurs, lol.

The repeater and plasma pistol tell you shot leading.

I don't remember this at all. I'mma test this out

 

Edit: oh yeah there's some noticeable sideward inching of the reticle with those two guns. Never noticed that. I thought you meant like h5 beta esque flinching where the whole gun shoots upward.

Funny how I'm just learning about this now.

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