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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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46 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Are you actually concerned about making menus more clunky.

I'm not going to address the redundancy point again because I feel like I've answered that a dozen times already and it's getting...redundant  repetitive. Regardless -  if you can toggle it off then it's of no concern to you. Play on mute w/o vibration to your heart's content.

The uncrouch vibration was a continuation of the idea of providing better feedback for spring jumping since the mechanic is all but a mystery to nearly the entire Halo population.  It's not feedback to tell you that you did something, it's feedback to tell you when you should do something. As in, you learn to hit jump when it vibrates to perfect the spring jump timing. Not, I'm uncrouching therefore the feedback is there to tell me what I already did.

I mean, yeah, I'd want my menu to not be a clunky mess. Given I have to navigate it. Daily. 

Towards spring jumping, I could get the argument if it was about timing the spring jump. But you can literally just press and hold the buttons in sequence to do it, with the timing of releasing being pseudo-"dynamic" so to speak. It's dependent on the player. It again, is another thing I learned completely without vibration. In two different games. And I took my sweet ass time doing it in a custom just getting used to the buttons. You literally do not need vibration for it. Let alone the fact that there are TONS of situations where you may crouch outside of it. Like crouch strafing, crouch jumping, simply crouching in a corner,  the like. So you're gonna be getting this sick vibration, potentially in the middle of combat when you only want to use it for spring jumping. Not really a good trade off.

It's like your example with Gears of War. I've played a lot of Gears. The last thing I've ever thought about critiquing would be the active reload, lmao. Like, I'd agree with the idea of putting it in the center reticle, or below it. But you do not need a vibration to watch the active reload marker pass over that sweet spot, and it isn't hard to learn it without. And like other things, it has audio and visual cues to let you know if you'd done it or failed it, and like YYing, is a consistent factor you can practice without it. EVERYTHING you need is already there for you. 

To me it's hard to see the angle of accessibility, especially with the PC platform being a factor. Because, the most "prevalent" example is for a mechanic that is already super niche and not in high use, even in high level play. Vibration won't suddenly push the mechanic into the spotlight when its actual tangible use now is nill, and it's used in vibration's absence just fine. If you don't want it to be a mystery to people, make a Youtube video on it, just teaching people how to do it, easy solution. 

And the rest of that list is again, redundantly conveyed to you. To the point where all it requires is you paying attention. Which is my issue. Why not just design a game that can properly convey itself to the player without requiring some gimmicky external factor to it, lol. Which, as I've said in the past, is literally done in these games that never had to, or don't rely on this to convey extra information. 

It's a waste of time and an improper allocation of resources to me.

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3 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

More options doesn't make a menu more clunky, bad menu design makes a menu more clunky.

Exactly what I was thinking while reading through. 

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If you can't learn to spring jump now with libraries of YouTube videos then I don't know what to tell you. At some point  we just have to let oblivious people stay oblivious. There are COUNTLESS mechanics in games not portrayed in 55 different ways that you just have to learn. And look into. That's part of the skill in a game. Timing a spring jump is a skill. You need to learn it. Noobifying it defeats the purpose. If players like Shotzzy can do it 90% of the time there is no excuse. Practice it or don't use it. 

 

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24 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

If you can't learn to spring jump now with libraries of YouTube videos then I don't know what to tell you. At some point  we just have to let oblivious people stay oblivious. There are COUNTLESS mechanics in games not portrayed in 55 different ways that you just have to learn. And look into. That's part of the skill in a game. Timing a spring jump is a skill. You need to learn it. Noobifying it defeats the purpose. If players like Shotzzy can do it 90% of the time there is no excuse. Practice it or don't use it.

I agree to an extent with this, but I can also see where Hard Way is coming with this.

Vibration timing for a double shot or rrbxr would be absurd, it would take the whole merit of actually learning the timing out of it. On the other hand, like with Apex, you aren't really maximizing someones skill by alerting them that their slide potential is maxed out. Like having a vibration for thrust being off cooldown, you aren't going to take a C-tier player and make them a B-tier player out of this one thing. Its just another form of feedback besides audio/visual that can be useful.

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The past 100 or so pages of this thread just need to be thrown in the trash.  God damn...

Why the fuck are we arguing about **vibration** of all things?  It's a non-issue, having an option to disable it doesn't clutter the menu in any meaningful way either.  Even if it did you could always just hide minute options like that under an "advanced options" tab anyways.

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2 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

Even if it did you could always just hide minute options like that under an "advanced options" tab anyways.

An option in your options to hide your options. GG.

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It's weird that I agree with both Multilockon and Ice Princess at the same time.

I agree with Multiboi that exploring new ways for player feedback, particularly in areas that have been only glossed over in the past is a great idea and can be explored, yet I agree with Icylass that a host of new menu toggles isn't feasible in the UI for the general playerbase.

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10 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

If you can't learn to spring jump now with libraries of YouTube videos then I don't know what to tell you. At some point  we just have to let oblivious people stay oblivious. There are COUNTLESS mechanics in games not portrayed in 55 different ways that you just have to learn. And look into. That's part of the skill in a game. Timing a spring jump is a skill. You need to learn it. Noobifying it defeats the purpose. If players like Shotzzy can do it 90% of the time there is no excuse. Practice it or don't use it. 

 

Halo's problem since forever is that it doesn't contextualize, in game mind you, psuedo mechanics like crouch jumping or spring jumping despite their existence in game. No one should need a third party source to learn that they exist at all.

A tutorial mode that teaches these concepts would make them  more prevalent in moment to moment gameplay across all skill levels. It wouldn't hurt anyone, and would improve the average players experience. 

And so what if these concepts are "noobified", I don't bitch about a players ability to spam crouch in a strafing fight in Halo 5, compared to the specific timing required from past games to do so, for example. We both get a better, more varied strafe battle out of it.

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5 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

An option in your options to hide your options. GG.

Vibration on/off toggle, press Y for advanced features. 

There its no longer cluttering the menu system and has a mass toggle off. Its really not that hard. 

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A clunky main menu? C'mon. I'm not a fan of vibration either but all you have to do is:

Vibration: Universal On/Off - Press A for advanced settings

After you press A, the different vibrations are shown. Changing anything just turns the universal vibration setting to Custom. The game is already going to have a setting to enable/disable vibration anyway, as long as the remaining advanced settings are hidden behind you pressing A, then I don't understand that issue at all.

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4 hours ago, The Tyco said:

Halo's problem since forever is that it doesn't contextualize, in game mind you, psuedo mechanics like crouch jumping or spring jumping despite their existence in game. No one should need a third party source to learn that they exist at all.

A tutorial mode that teaches these concepts would make them  more prevalent in moment to moment gameplay across all skill levels. It wouldn't hurt anyone, and would improve the average players experience. 

And so what if these concepts are "noobified", I don't bitch about a players ability to spam crouch in a strafing fight in Halo 5, compared to the specific timing required from past games to do so, for example. We both get a better, more varied strafe battle out of it.

Again there are so many aspects of the game that you simply just have to learn on your own. Even basic understanding of how the spawns work. Things like the H2A snipe blocking spawns through walls, Insta splodes, YY'ing snipe, thrust slidining, the list goes on and on. If you want to know all the little game exploits you need to put in the time to learn them. It's not on the developer to give you a manual. We live in a technology heavy era you have  a million tools at your disposal to learn anything you want. That's how every FPS has worked since the beginning. Especially with no YouTube. 

Now to the next point, I don't even know what you're trying to address. Crouching before didn't really have a timing you could still spam it ala Ghandi hopping. And even so how does h5 crouch lower the skill gap? It adds an insane amount to your strafe and gives you one of the strongest strafe tools in the series. How is that even related?

My main point is simply that you should not put specific things in the game that are ONLY available through vibration. Because a vibrating controller is a shit thing and I will NEVER use it. But if you start putting specific things on it that slow you to do things easier simply because you enable it that's a problem. Especially when it's something like the game TELLING you when to do a combo. When everyone else has to figure it out on their own. Someone  earlier mentioned RRX. Imagine H2 button combos literally vibrating to tell you when to press the buttons. That would be a joke. It's the same with this. Spring jumping is a movement based button combo with specific timing. That you have to learn to use. And like many other exploits it's something that takes skill to do and learn. 

Basically if there isn't a visual cue for something there shouldn't be a vibration. That simple. 

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16 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

It's not on the developer to give you a manual.

The people who designed the game shouldn’t attempt to teach players how to play it?

 

17 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

you should not put specific things in the game that are ONLY available through vibration.

Has anyone asked for something to be available only through vibration?

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Just now, Boyo said:

The people who designed the game shouldn’t attempt to teach players how to play it?

Has anyone asked for something to be available only through vibration?

Can't believe I'm about to like a Boyo post. 

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19 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Again there are so many aspects of the game that you simply just have to learn on your own. Even basic understanding of how the spawns work. Things like the H2A snipe blocking spawns through walls, Insta splodes, YY'ing snipe, thrust slidining, the list goes on and on. If you want to know all the little game exploits you need to put in the time to learn them. It's not on the developer to give you a manual. We live in a technology heavy era you have  a million tools at your disposal to learn anything you want. That's how every FPS has worked since the beginning. Especially with no YouTube. 

Now to the next point, I don't even know what you're trying to address. Crouching before didn't really have a timing you could still spam it ala Ghandi hopping. And even so how does h5 crouch lower the skill gap? It adds an insane amount to your strafe and gives you one of the strongest strafe tools in the series. How is that even related?

My main point is simply that you should not put specific things in the game that are ONLY available through vibration. Because a vibrating controller is a shit thing and I will NEVER use it. But if you start putting specific things on it that slow you to do things easier simply because you enable it that's a problem. Especially when it's something like the game TELLING you when to do a combo. When everyone else has to figure it out on their own. Someone  earlier mentioned RRX. Imagine H2 button combos literally vibrating to tell you when to press the buttons. That would be a joke. It's the same with this. Spring jumping is a movement based button combo with specific timing. That you have to learn to use. And like many other exploits it's something that takes skill to do and learn. 

The skill floor wouldn't raise, and the skill ceiling wouldn't lower.  The exact timing needed to execute in button sequence of spring jump in this example doesn't change, it's the same with the feedback or not, whether you play with vibration, sound, your TV off. You're just moving the collective skill level of the community up as people who might be ignorant (not, unable) of the mechanic will be introduced to it.  

 

Hypothetical; if a menu popped up in the Halo 2 menu that taught people about doubleshotting - would would you think that would do to the skill level of the general game.

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The real reason he doesn’t want these things known is because it makes him artificially better at the game than people who don’t know these things even exist.

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12 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

The skill floor wouldn't raise, and the skill ceiling wouldn't lower.  The exact timing needed to execute in button sequence of spring jump in this example doesn't change, it's the same with the feedback or not, whether you play with vibration, sound, your TV off. You're just moving the collective skill level of the community up as people who might be ignorant (not, unable) of the mechanic will be introduced to it.  

 

Hypothetical; if a menu popped up in the Halo 2 menu that taught people about doubleshotting - would would you think that would do to the skill level of the general game.

It's not the same though. Because the game is literally telling you whento do something. The skill in learning the timing as a whole is a thing. Learning how to spring jump accurately and pulling it off based on memorizing timing is a skill. Vibrating and telling you the timing makes it easier to execute. 

And I didn't say I was against telling people the stuff. I just said it's something people shouldn't be mad at a developer for. It's not their job to tell players every little exploit in their game. If they had a menu explaining what the button combos were I wouldn't care. If the controller literally vibrated and told you when to press each button I would. Because now you are giving an advantage to someone using vibe. 

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Hearing footsteps is unfair.  It gives an advantage to people using sound.

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26 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Vibrating and telling you the timing makes it easier to execute. 

No it does not.  The combo and timing required to execute something does not change, that is true regardless of outside factors. If it becomes easier to execute with additional information that should tell you that the difficulty never originated from the skill required to execute it in the first place, but rather from a lack of information. 

 

27 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

If the controller literally vibrated and told you when to press each button I would. Because now you are giving an advantage to someone using vibe. 

 

24 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Hearing footsteps is unfair.  It gives an advantage to people using sound.

That's ^ my response to that.  A list of toggle able options for what you want to que vibration should remedy in reason to otherwise blanket disable it as a feature. If you want to remove it altogether then that's your own prerogative.  

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I feel like a lot could be learned from smart phone user interfaces in regard to transmitting information via vibration.  Moving away from “IT FEELS LIKE IM FIRING A REAL GUN BECAUSE MY CONTROLLER IS MASSAGING MY HANDS” to things like short vibe, long vibe, double vibe to convey various bits of information.  You could even do things like weapon timings.  Long vibe at 30 seconds, double vibe at 20, single vibe at 10.

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20 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

When you have an object shaking in your hand, even if subtle, and you're trying to move a stick that is designed to have free movement outside of the center to take "precision" shots, it's gonna have the potential to screw up your aim.

Of course, I'm thinking more past that, and as such I still think the option is beyond redundant, and the PC platform has moved well past it with no problems, but, lol.

 

‘Potential’. Ok, so it isn't that vibration mechanically affects the analog sticks directly, then. More that it instead somehow overtakes the natural hand tremors and causes you to move your thumbs against your will. Right. I guess if I squint my eyes and look at it in an abstract way that I can kinda sorta imagine how this would happen. If only the actual likelihood of it happening didn't seem essentially nill. But ok, whatever you say lol.

 

Unless you have a nervous shaky hand condition (which I could understand), vibration literally physically throwing off your aim just seems like a myth to me, assuming you have fresh equipment and can stay calm. I can totally understand vibration just being outright obnoxiously distracting though, or even startling people and causing them to jump/flinch from it. But then that is a personal preference that extends to a lot of things.

 

Is it necessary? No, of course not, lol. A gimmick? Yeah, sure. Does it hurt anything, aside from battery life? I still find no reason to believe so. But it can still add something for some people, and is easily disabled by people who dislike it, which is fine.

 

For menu nonsense, pretty simple: On>Off>Custom (only setting to custom would open up the advanced options menu, similar to other settings such as in H5 aiming). Also, more, even if redundant, options are always a good thing. Which although they don't have vibration (and probably shouldn't) on KBM, the PC crowd you mention is always about options. I've done just fine without it on other platforms, like I've said before.

 

BTW, just to be clear, I'm not trying to convince you to use the setting, just that it is a non-issue, IMO. I'll otherwise agree to disagree, here.

 

Also, @MY NAMEZ BEAST, what you say about how vibration shouldn't provide an advantage over people that don't use it is a valid concern. I would agree that there should definitely be visual cues for everything that may have a tiny vibration tied to it. And not necessarily vice-versa. And IMO long-established ‘exploits’ aught be taught to players by now in the franchise.

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On 4/19/2019 at 2:28 PM, TheIcePrincess said:

You're still not using something because of a perceived cheapness to it, despite the fact it's in the game. Because it's not fun to play like that to you, it's cheap, and has no counter, despite you not governing what the game's rules are in the case of the former two. It's still your self-made honor system. You can try and argue you're "less of a scrub" because you may not bitch, but you're still a scrub. You're just the mandarin orange of scrubs if it makes you feel better, lol. 

Late so I might repeat some ideas but isn't playing to win based off competitive gaming? Like this sort of limiting is fine for various reasons, whether it be practice or fun. If you are practicing you're bnb's and meatys then it makes sense that you aren't going to chain throw 4 times or run away for the time limit. Are you a scrub because you are practicing various techniques? If you do this but then drop these limitations in a competitive match than it no longer fits the definition. It's not that I don't bitch because it's a casual game, it's that I don't feel superior for not using the item or claim those who do it are bad. Imagine I posted quake links where someone won with quad damage and I said how bad they were for winning the game and complained because they wouldn't win without it. That I can see would be a pretty scrubby thing to do. Make excuses/deny accountability, play with limitations, feel superior, and state those who don't follow these same ideas are bad. If you choose to not pick up a power weapon because you have fun using the utility, I think that is ok as long as you have some sense of accountability that it is your choice and not a game design flaw. I think that is where we differ and I feel it is not so black and white.

 

OT:

I use vibe when I LAN but don't use vibe when I am online. There's some issue with my mix amp or something when it vibrates it sends a buzz through my mic so I've shut it off completely. I keep it on when I LAN probably because I am just use to it but I never feel like it has thrown aim off from the vibe. I'm not even sure how much vibe there is on the OG controller. It's definitely less than half the players that use it at these LANs. It really doesn't effect me but it does help when I am busy screen watching or something and get hit. I can be looking at my teammates death cam and there is important info there like downed rockets or a camo player etc. I'll push that play while looking at my teammates screen and I could be shot in the back. The play is situational but from the vibe I can crouch and 180 immediately. I might take a second shot before I look away from my teammates screen and that could make or break the play.

If we weren't doing split screen there is a chance I would leave it on without thinking about it but I'd be fine with it off. I'd also be fine with limiting or choosing what cause vibration 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

No it does not.  The combo and timing required to execute something does not change, that is true regardless of outside factors. If it becomes easier to execute with additional information that should tell you that the difficulty never originated from the skill required to execute it in the first place, but rather from a lack of information.

These conversations would be a lot more productive if you didn't seem to believe that every notion you have about anything is some kind of objective truth, when the reality is that most of what you consider inherently more skillful is just (coincidently, I'm sure) what you happen to like.
 

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If it becomes easier to execute with additional information that should tell you that the difficulty never originated from the skill required to execute it in the first place, but rather from a lack of information. 

This is an assertion. This is not a fact. It's not an argument. It's your OPINION. And if it were just that, there wouldn't be a problem. But it isn't just that, because you continually confuse your opinions with facts and as a result seemingly don't see any reason that you need to support those opinions with actual facts or arguments. In every single one of these discussions, you make multiple statements like this without ever justifying them in any meaningful way, as if they were simply observations of objective reality. And when called out on it, you repeat yourself as if people were incapable of reading. But let's get objective about this.

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skill

a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

Timing is a skill. Being able to consistently hit exactly the same timing without some Simon says indicator on your screen or in your hands requires practice to develop consistency and is by definition a learned skill. And, in actuality, there IS 100% consistent feedback for spring-jumping: a successful spring jump. Pressing a button when the game tells you to inherently requires less knowledge and less coordination. But let's go back to your claim:

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If it becomes easier to execute with additional information that should tell you that the difficulty never originated from the skill required to execute it in the first place, but rather from a lack of information. 

So, given this assertion, I'm sure that you would agree that, since projectile lead would become easier with an on-screen lead estimate and/or target distance indicators in your HUD, the difficulty never originated from the skill required to lead your shots in the first place, but rather from a lack of information. Or maybe your assertion about where "the skill" originated is arbitrary gibberish.

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That's ^ my response to that.

Comparing force feedback that tells you exactly when to press/release a button in ONE SPECIFIC CONTEXT to general audio information about enemy positions is one of the most absurd things I've seen on this forum in a while. And that's saying something.

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You could argue that sound is even bigger advantage and more abusable through monetary upgrades.  Surround sound, headphones can improve your ability process directional sound which is a constant, significant advantage.

 

Everyone has a controller.  We all use the same vibrator.

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