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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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8 hours ago, Hard Way said:

 

Finding out that you don't actually read is probably the least surprising thing I've read in months. Perhaps if you actually read what people say before talking more (you know, on a forum, where you come to read), you wouldn't come across as so god damn ignorant all the time. It's a few paragraphs dude, and it's about something you're interested in, and it's written by someone that knows more than you. Grow the fuck up and read.

I love how you follow up admitting that you gave up on reading by literally guessing at what he took the time to tell you (and getting it wrong, shocker). If you had a respectable level of reading comprehension, you would know that his points about sound were not meant to say that it's distracting and unnecessary, but instead that vibration could be as beneficial as sound if it were implemented correctly. Thus far, with very few exceptions that he was kind enough to point out, it hasn't been implemented correctly. You ignored this portion completely while you skimmed over his post, and then thought you understood it well enough to retort. Instead, you just shit on the status quo implementation of vibration, which he already said was shit. So good job completely not understanding what you're fucking replying to.

I also love the part where you say he's "denying history" even though he literally fucking directly addressed it, and then say "magically work" like he didn't just give excellent examples of how it could work. Then you say he wouldn't know it would work, when he again gave real world examples of it having already been used well.

So now I'm just curious at how little you actually read and comprehend before you hit that quote button and start typing. What is your actual thought process like? Do you just read the first sentence of each paragraph?  Exactly how many lines does a post need to be before you give up?  Is there any lingering doubt in your mind while you're typing a response that maybe you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, because you didn't finish reading what you're replying to? Or are you just supremely confident that none of it was important, and only your words and your uninformed, ignorant opinions matter? Does it make you feel stupid when these things are pointed out to you, or do you just get angry that they were pointed out to you, and choose to learn nothing from it?

I decided to read his full post and STILL my conclusion is what Is made. Grow up and be an adult and understand you’re not correct. He did not give real world examples, he gave examples of how he believes vibration can be done correctly but doesn’t have a video game that implemented his form of vibration into it. You can’t pull out examples and claim them as fact, simply when that example doesn’t exist, it’s you thinking it in your head. I try to be respectful but then you question my intelligence simply because I didn’t read his whole post the first time? Also just like princess had stated, an animation is all you need to know the things multi had suggested. 

He may have addressed history but the  way he addressed it, he thinks it’s completely irrelevant, which I do not. 

Also don’t be a smart ass, because  clearly you didn’t read jack shit what I said, you immediately came to this conclusion he’s right, I’m wrong, because of something so simple as not reading a few lines? When you call someone out for imperfections make sure you yourself are perfect. 

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Holy shit lmao there is NOTHING more irrelevant to halo in its current state than controller vibration.

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5 minutes ago, Hootspa said:

Holy shit lmao there is NOTHING more irrelevant to halo in its current state than controller vibration.

Pretty much this . in just about any video game,  No one uses it because there’s no point. It’s just a useless feature that provides no advantage, or any real help that sight and sound can bring. I don’t need vibration to tell me Ive reloaded my gun, reached full sprint speed etc etc. I have eyes I can see the animation. Vibration is a simple annoyance  it’s like flinch almost. 

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3 minutes ago, Hootspa said:

... that’s not what I was trying to say my dude lol

Saying something’s irrelevant is saying it’s basically useless, not needed, etc.

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1 minute ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Saying something’s irrelevant is saying it’s basically useless, not needed, etc.

No I meant there is no sense in arguing about it because it is not a big deal either way. They could completely remove it from the game forever, or force everyone to use it and it wouldn’t make a difference. It’s just not important at all.

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Irrelevant: not connected with or relevant to something.

This is basically saying it’s relevance in the game is non existing since vibration is controller based only, and in no way shape or form can be done right.(regardless of whatever bullshit examples @MultiLockOn gives out). 

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1 minute ago, Hootspa said:

No I meant there is no sense in arguing about it because it is not a big deal either way. They could completely remove it from the game forever, or force everyone to use it and it wouldn’t make a difference. It’s just not important at all.

Oh if they forced everyone to use it like they did with the h5 beta people be hella pissed. Also this is something we’re basically  talking about because we got nothing better to discuss. We could talk about shit that would/ most likely will happen to halo but no one here likes too.

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I don’t remember seeing a single post about controller vibration on here during the h5 beta. Literally 50% of people on here trashing the game outright, and the other 50% saying it was going to be great we just need to give it a chance. (It’s trash btw)

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1 minute ago, Hootspa said:

I don’t remember seeing a single post about controller vibration on here during the h5 beta. Literally 50% of people on here trashing the game outright, and the other 50% saying it was going to be great we just need to give it a chance. (It’s trash btw)

You should of gone on waypoint because that was one of the most annoying things. Oh and twitter.

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1 minute ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

You should of gone on waypoint

lol

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I'm not convinced that vibration actually literally affects your aim. Stand still, take your thumbs off the sticks, and shoot at a wall. I am fairly certain that the targeting reticule won't move at all, minus the subtle inherent recoil from some Halo weapons in the past, such as the BR.

The only way that I can imagine vibration physically affecting your aim is if you have an old, worn, controller. And if that is the case, it isn't anything that increased dead zone settings shouldn't be able to fix. Especially since you would also be worrying about stick drift at that point anyway, to begin with.

Now, if you are talking about vibration just being an outright distraction, I could understand that. But then that simply becomes player preference, IMO. No different than control schemes or aiming sensitivities.

Personally I am with @MultiLockOn on how it can add another way to sense and feel certain things like a soft reload or such. Gears of War actually has a small rumble when you hit an Active Reload(which I agree that the bar would otherwise be better placed near the reticule instead of a corner of the screen). Is vibration necessary? Nah, not really. Even Gears has your character say something depending on wether you hit an Active or jam, on top of another base audio cue. Vibration is just another settings option that IMO doesn't hurt anything if someone so chooses to use it.

IMO though, whenever I play xbox games without vibration, it is like trying to walk with a numb foot lol. It just feels completely off. I've played some PSP, PS Vita, and PC games without it though and do just fine. It just depends on what options are there and what I prefer or am used to.

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13 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Sound also is easily picked up and doesn’t require the time and patience to adjust. Only way sound is messing you up if you play so high a volume that it hurts or causes you to go deaf, but most human beings are intelligent enough to not do this.

Most people that buy surround sound headphones don't instantly become this all-hearing and omniscient source echo location. You have to sit there and train yourself to actually pay attention to directional cues; after some time it becomes second nature and you're no longer actively thinking about it.  It's a learned skill like anything else.

This also completely ignores how difficult audio mixing, audio attenuation, and all the tech involved with game mixing is.  It is absolutely possible for a game to have a poorly implemented audio mix to the point of never truly feeding you what you need to know.

Timestamped

and timestamped again

 

You probably don't even realize it but even Halo has prioritization of when and what to allow you to hear.  There are dozens of systems all the way down that is the game determining what to filter out before it reaches your ears, it's entirely possible that there could be someone shooting a gun right next to you and the audio will literally not be played because the game is determining that something else is more important and should take priority. Properly implemented vibration cues can absolutely have the same effect.

13 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

vibration has been implemented in every game for the past twenty something years(don’t quote me) and has not once been a feature people say “I loved how vibration was done in this game”. Denying history is a fools move because it makes you think this will magically work in the present(in some cases this has happened but usually because of greater tech or new resources suchs as plants or something of the sort). Vibration is such a feature, you’ve come up a hypothesis on how vibration could possibly work, without knowing if it can. To test this you’d have to see how many people keep this form of vibration on and those who keep it off, and in order for this test to be successful it’d have to have a score of at least 70%. 

Nothing is a good idea until it's done properly.  That's what makes an amazing product. Console shooters weren't considered possible until Halo CE.

2 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

He did not give real world examples

I literally gave an example in Apex in that I'm fully aware of when to slide in console, and not in PC. I asked my coworkers who all play it on PC during their lunch break how long they wait to slide for max velocity and they didn't even know it was a thing because they've only played it with mkb. 

2 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Irrelevant: not connected with or relevant to something.

This is basically saying it’s relevance in the game is non existing since vibration is controller based only, and in no way shape or form can be done right.(regardless of whatever bullshit examples @MultiLockOn gives out). 

Well those bullshit examples are the reason I'm the one paid to design these games and you're the one paying to play them.

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48 minutes ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

I'm not convinced that vibration actually literally affects your aim. Stand still, take your thumbs off the sticks, and shoot at a wall. I am fairly certain that the targeting reticule won't move at all, minus the subtle inherent recoil from some Halo weapons in the past, such as the BR.

Given analogue sticks are literally designed to "stick" to the center of the pad when not in use, it kinda makes sense they won't move when you're not touching them, compared to when you are, lmao.

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3 hours ago, Hootspa said:

No I meant there is no sense in arguing about it because it is not a big deal either way. They could completely remove it from the game forever, or force everyone to use it and it wouldn’t make a difference. It’s just not important at all.

You're not wrong but its just hilarious to see people talk about it this much. I just want the stats now after people are saying nobody uses it etc because I have this weird feeling that the number of players to use it, even pro players, is way higher than people realize

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5 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

You're not wrong but its just hilarious to see people talk about it this much. I just want the stats now after people are saying nobody uses it etc because I have this weird feeling that the number of players to use it, even pro players, is way higher than people realize

Uhhhhhh nah. Most pros don't use vibe. And if a game forced vibe I would literally remove them from my controller. And pros would be raging at the devs to add the option to remove it. I don't care how many total players use it because most players don't know shit about settings lmao. 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Most people that buy surround sound headphones don't instantly become this all-hearing and omniscient source echo location. You have to sit there and train yourself to actually pay attention to directional cues; after some time it becomes second nature and you're no longer actively thinking about it.  It's a learned skill like anything else.

This also completely ignores how difficult audio mixing, audio attenuation, and all the tech involved with game mixing is.  It is absolutely possible for a game to have a poorly implemented audio mix to the point of never truly feeding you what you need to know.

Timestamped

and timestamped again

 

You probably don't even realize it but even Halo has prioritization of when and what to allow you to hear.  There are dozens of systems all the way down that is the game determining what to filter out before it reaches your ears, it's entirely possible that there could be someone shooting a gun right next to you and the audio will literally not be played because the game is determining that something else is more important and should take priority. Properly implemented vibration cues can absolutely have the same effect.

Nothing is a good idea until it's done properly.  That's what makes an amazing product. Console shooters weren't considered possible until Halo CE.

I literally gave an example in Apex in that I'm fully aware of when to slide in console, and not in PC. I asked my coworkers who all play it on PC during their lunch break how long they wait to slide for max velocity and they didn't even know it was a thing because they've only played it with mkb. 

Well those bullshit examples are the reason I'm the one paid to design these games and you're the one paying to play them.

I don’t use fucking vibration when I play games and only played apex with a controller twice. So I don’t know if it’s vibration that’s literally letting you know you’re at max velocity.  

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2 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Uhhhhhh nah. Most pros don't use vibe. And if a game forced vibe I would literally remove them from my controller. And pros would be raging at the devs to add the option to remove it. I don't care how many total players use it because most players don't know shit about settings lmao. 

I understand your feelings but that doesn't actually address what I was saying lol. Saying "most pros don't use vibe" could mean a lot of different things. People are out here like nobody uses it but the more google I use the more it starts to seem like a pretty significant portion of them do

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Given analogue sticks are literally designed to "stick" to the center of the pad when not in use, it kinda makes sense they won't move when you're not touching them, compared to when you are, lmao.

Yeah, duh. I still don’t see how or why vibration would affect the analog sticks at all. Neither while static nor while being moved with your thumb. I would think that the same mechanisms that make them 'stick' while not in use would also work to resist your thumbs and the even more miniscule force of vibration while being pushed.

And again, on old controllers, increasing dead zones should negate such a minor shake to begin with, while simultaneously protecting against stick drift.

So it ultimately just resigns vibration to a simple settings preference IMO, if people think it distracts them or not, which I can easily understand. We may as well be debating control schemes and aiming sensitivities lol.

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My ideal scenario would be to have a settings menu with a string of toggles where you can individually choose to toggle on and off which vibration ques you want instead of blanket enabling/disabling.

-On damage receive

-On trigger pull

-On uncrouch

-On reload state complete

-On max sprint velocity

-On approaching Mantis footsteps

-On thrust recharge

-On ground pound ready

 

etc. Could choose what you want, or disable completely if you are so inclined.

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3 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

On approaching Mantis footsteps

giphy.gif

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16 minutes ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

Yeah, duh. I still don’t see how or why vibration would affect the analog sticks at all. Neither while static nor while being moved with your thumb. I would think that the same mechanisms that make them 'stick' while not in use would also work to resist your thumbs and the even more miniscule force of vibration while being pushed.

And again, on old controllers, increasing dead zones should negate such a minor shake to begin with, while simultaneously protecting against stick drift.

So it ultimately just resigns vibration to a simple settings preference IMO, if people think it distracts them or not, which I can easily understand. We may as well be debating control schemes and aiming sensitivities lol.

When you have an object shaking in your hand, even if subtle, and you're trying to move a stick that is designed to have free movement outside of the center to take "precision" shots, it's gonna have the potential to screw up your aim.

Of course, I'm thinking more past that, and as such I still think the option is beyond redundant, and the PC platform has moved well past it with no problems, but, lol.

25 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

My ideal scenario would be to have a settings menu with a string of toggles where you can individually choose to toggle on and off which vibration ques you want instead of blanket enabling/disabling.

-On damage receive

-On trigger pull

-On uncrouch

-On reload state complete

-On max sprint velocity

-On approaching Mantis footsteps

-On thrust recharge

-On ground pound ready

 

etc. Could choose what you want, or disable completely if you are so inclined.

More options to toggle off, making a menu more clunky. Again, why do we need half this shit. Asking a straight up "why". All of this is conveyed to you through blatant audio and visual cues that just require you to pay attention. And can always be done that way, negating the need for vibration. As someone who rarely plays with sound too, I can tell you every single one of these things is conveyed to me by sight alone. I just find the most ridiculous one to be uncrouching having its own toggle. Not to sound really passive aggressive but do you REALLY need to have a vibration to be told that?

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1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

I understand your feelings but that doesn't actually address what I was saying lol. Saying "most pros don't use vibe" could mean a lot of different things. People are out here like nobody uses it but the more google I use the more it starts to seem like a pretty significant portion of them do

I don't know what you're looking up then lol. There is a vast majority of pro players that don't use vibe in any way. You can go ask in their chats if you really want to. It's just not a very great thing when trying to aim your tiny little thumbsticks. 

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38 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

When you have an object shaking in your hand, even if subtle, and you're trying to move a stick that is designed to have free movement outside of the center to take "precision" shots, it's gonna have the potential to screw up your aim.

Of course, I'm thinking more past that, and as such I still think the option is beyond redundant, and the PC platform has moved well past it with no problems, but, lol.

More options to toggle off, making a menu more clunky. Again, why do we need half this shit. Asking a straight up "why". All of this is conveyed to you through blatant audio and visual cues that just require you to pay attention. And can always be done that way, negating the need for vibration. As someone who rarely plays with sound too, I can tell you every single one of these things is conveyed to me by sight alone. I just find the most ridiculous one to be uncrouching having its own toggle. Not to sound really passive aggressive but do you REALLY need to have a vibration to be told that?

Are you actually concerned about making menus more clunky.

I'm not going to address the redundancy point again because I feel like I've answered that a dozen times already and it's getting...redundant  repetitive. Regardless -  if you can toggle it off then it's of no concern to you. Play on mute w/o vibration to your heart's content.

The uncrouch vibration was a continuation of the idea of providing better feedback for spring jumping since the mechanic is all but a mystery to nearly the entire Halo population.  It's not feedback to tell you that you did something, it's feedback to tell you when you should do something. As in, you learn to hit jump when it vibrates to perfect the spring jump timing. Not, I'm uncrouching therefore the feedback is there to tell me what I already did.

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Giving people the option to disable individual pieces of haptic feedback is smart in that it drives engagement. A legitmized spring jumping option is the perfect example in that it introduces an unfamiliar concept [to a lot of the Halo population] and makes it easier for people to engage in said concept.

It's similar to custom keybind mapping, if you're actively thinking about how you want things setup you're more likely to use them:

e.g. Mapping melee to a mouse button for Winston increases the likelihood you're going to try cancelling the melee animation with leap OR use melee to burst the final small chunk of health OR use melee to conserve ammo in longer engagements OR use melee more frequently because of the relationship to armour / sheilds verses his tesla cannon.

e.g. in one of Shrouds most recent youtube videos he talks about how he doesn't have sprint toggle in PUBG verses other quicker BR games.

You're already taking the second step by rebinding the key / selecting the option so that assumes some base knowledge and your willingness to commit to that idea in the first instance. Basically yes it's a good idea, yes it can be done much better than we've seen before, be useful throughout the skill gap AND the engagement theory behind it should be applied across the board.

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