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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Just now, Squatting Bear said:

Just curious.  Would love to see one of them.

Also I'm not defending Mint Blitz's content.  He uploads a lot of H5, H2A and just a lot of bot farming I dont find too entertaining.  

The bot farming is why it's being criticized lmao 

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2 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

Just curious.  Would love to see one of them.

Also I'm not defending Mint Blitz's content.  He uploads a lot of H5, H2A and just a lot of bot farming I dont find too entertaining.  

Yeaaaaaaaah, the bot farming is why I hate his shit, lol. Dude's fake as fuck for it.  Of course over-editing is its own camp of shit, but also slightly irrelevant to me.

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21 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

We literally have one shot kill power weapons lol. And something that turns you invisible. How is that not worse. 

The ease of securing kills with quad damage vs. natural kills is a much much greater delta than what you find in Halo.  It's not unusual for a quake match to end 1 - 1.  Quad damage can pretty easily secure you 4 - 8 kills if you just continually rush off their spawn. More in 2's. Also quake drops powerups when someone dies until their timer dissolves.  There's been many times I miraculously got a kill on the quad player, only for their teammate to pick it up and continue the rampage.

 

I personally can't think of anything more offensive in any game, even the BFG in Doom's MP is more manageable.  

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2 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

I really wish the game didn't have crossplay and controller support was limited to zero aim-assist except for Campaign.

Trying to shove in crossplay and pander to console gamers when they aren't even the target audience in the first place is just going to compromise so much of the port's design and throw it's competitive integrity eternally into question.  Hell I even suspect mods will be ultra limited as a result.

I've already seen so much in the MCC Steam Discussions that just makes me want to rip my hair out.  People asking for splitscreen.  People saying KBM should be banned.  People claiming FPS grants unfair advantage and should be limited.  Console gamers who understand nothing of PC gaming yet for some reason aren't content to just stick to their own separate port of the game that they already own...

Absolutely agree. There is no reason to pander to console players with a PC port. All it will accomplish is undermining the real potential of the PC experience, holding it back to recreate the mediocre experience the console players are nostalgic for. I can think of no good reason to support aim assist for controllers in a PC FPS and I have about as much interest in playing against console aim assist in match-making as I would playing against players with aim hacks (or, rather, aim hacks that aren't built into the game to help controller players).

 

3 hours ago, Riddler said:

Controller is worse than mouse. The average person is gunna be better on pc than on console. But that isnt important. Its not like everyone is ogre2. The skill spread will be wide. Also skill based matchmaking makes it not matter. Aiming is easy enough on console that you wont be useless even vs a bunch of mouse and keyboard gods anyway. 

Controller is worse than a mouse in that it is objectively less precise. It is NOT worse than a mouse in terms of actual effectiveness in many games, assuming aim assists are enabled. Given the extremely long kill times, slow movement, giant reticles, etc in Halo and the relatively low aim requirement for all but the head shot, the advantages of mouse aim aren't likely to be a factor in most fights, even ignoring the rest of the sandbox (like grenades). The only weapon I can think of where mouse aim is likely to provide an advantage over aim assist is the sniper rifle. If anything, the console players will have the advantage in most fights.

Which is the primary reason I am not interested in match-making cross-play or full controller support on PC.

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6 minutes ago, arglactable said:

Absolutely agree. There is no reason to pander to console players with a PC port. All it will accomplish is undermining the real potential of the PC experience, holding it back to recreate the mediocre experience the console players are nostalgic for. I can think of no good reason to support aim assist for controllers in a PC FPS and I have about as much interest in playing against console aim assist in match-making as I would playing against players with aim hacks (or, rather, aim hacks that aren't built into the game to help controller players).

 

Controller is worse than a mouse in that it is objectively less precise. It is NOT worse than a mouse in terms of actual effectiveness in many games, assuming aim assists are enabled. Given the extremely long kill times, slow movement, giant reticles, etc in Halo and the relatively low aim requirement for all but the head shot, the advantages of mouse aim aren't likely to be a factor in most fights, even ignoring the rest of the sandbox (like grenades). The only weapon I can think of where mouse aim is likely to provide an advantage over aim assist is the sniper rifle. If anything, the console players will have the advantage in most fights.

Which is the primary reason I am not interested in match-making cross-play or full controller support on PC.

^ This is actually very true.  There's a lot of studies that show long range shots involving micro-adjustments are easier done on controllers than with a mouse - very difficult to do micro micro adjustments with your hand like that then bumping a thumbstick. Also movement on PC games is usually done just holding W and then turning your mouse because WASD is such a stupid and granular way to move, you loose a lot of the fine granular movement of a thumbstick which makes games like titanfall harder in many ways.There's also the addition of vibration being a great physical form of feedback that doesn't exist on PC peripherals. I can tell you how many steps to take in Apex before sliding for the maximum slide speed because the maximum slide speed triggers a small vibration, I have no such feedback on mkb.  Even pressing multiple things at once becomes difficult with mkb, as seen by anyone trying to play Halo 5 on a keyboard.  Thrust slide hover clambering is much, much more difficult when you dont have a controller to wrap your hand around.

I'd go so far as to say that unless you're playing an input heavy game such as a moba or strategy game, most things are done better on a controller in almost every way.... except aiming.  Which is a pretty big deal so most people throw the advantage to mkb.  

 

Halo specifically has built itself around burst fire weapons for a long time which also lends itself to thumbsticks well. Mouse aiming is great for tracing, and great for snapping.  But something about the cadence of a BR burst involves this weird blend of both of those skills where you're snapping, and then tracking, and then repeats.  Which is done really well with a thumbstick.

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7 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

There's also the addition of vibration being a great physical form of feedback that doesn't exist on PC peripherals. I can tell you how many steps to take in Apex before sliding for the maximum slide speed because the maximum slide speed triggers a small vibration, I have no such feedback on mkb. 

It's great, yet most players turn it the fuck off at any high level, lol. Additionally, feedback can be done in other ways than vibration. I can tell you the maximum amount of steps you need to take for proper thrusting/thrust sliding in Halo 5 without vibration. Because the game conveys this to you visually and audibly, which is better than forcing you to feel it.

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16 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It's great, yet most players turn it the fuck off at any high level, lol. Additionally, feedback can be done in other ways than vibration. I can tell you the maximum amount of steps you need to take for proper thrusting/thrust sliding in Halo 5 without vibration. Because the game conveys this to you visually and audibly, which is better than forcing you to feel it.

This. Vibration is kinda unnecessary. 

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24 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It's great, yet most players turn it the fuck off at any high level, lol. Additionally, feedback can be done in other ways than vibration. I can tell you the maximum amount of steps you need to take for proper thrusting/thrust sliding in Halo 5 without vibration. Because the game conveys this to you visually and audibly, which is better than forcing you to feel it.

 

7 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

This. Vibration is kinda unnecessary. 

It's just a tool.  Whether or not it's execution has historically been done well is a different story but I've absolutely found examples that I know to be true for me.  I have no idea when I'm hitting the max slide potential in apex on PC because my FOV is wide enough that the speed boost from it blends in. I know it on controller because there's a soft rumble.  Halo 5 has a vibration hint when the magazine enters the gun I believe that tells you when you can YY.  Obviously a lot of these things as you said can be done through audio but it's nice to have the option.  There is such thing as audio overload so it's nice to off load some of their weight when you can.

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Just now, MultiLockOn said:

It's just a tool.  Whether or not it's execution has historically been done well is a different story but I've absolutely found examples that I know to be true for me.  I have no idea when I'm hitting the max slide potential in apex on PC because my FOV is wide enough that the speed boost from it blends in. I know it on controller because there's a soft rumble.  Halo 5 has a vibration hint when the magazine enters the gun I believe that tells you when you can YY.  Obviously a lot of these things as you said can be done through audio but it's nice to have the option.  There is such thing as audio overload so it's nice to off load some of their weight when you can.

Yeah, Halo 5's weapon reloading is something you can tell by the animation itself. The animation and sound alone denote the exact moment you've soft reloaded and can YY. Which is good because the former allows me to just play without sound half the time, lmao. I don't listen to it. Potentially "hardcore" information like that that can help a player shouldn't be relegated to a detrimental option. The option's "fine" I guess, I'm just saying it doesn't make vibration relevant because there are more means to convey this info that are better for the player.

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More feedback for the player is always good until it becomes overwhelming, and I haven't really seen any examples of it truly hitting that threshold. All options should obviously be toggleable. 

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3 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, Halo 5's weapon reloading is something you can tell by the animation itself. The animation and sound alone denote the exact moment you've soft reloaded and can YY. Which is good because the former allows me to just play without sound half the time, lmao. I don't listen to it. Potentially "hardcore" information like that that can help a player shouldn't be relegated to a detrimental option. The option's "fine" I guess, I'm just saying it doesn't make vibration relevant because there are more means to convey this info that are better for the player.

I don't get how anyone could possibly be against more options for sensory input, you're just inviting another one of your senses in.  Hell if I could somehow SMELL the guns I'd probably think of a way to use that as well (relax Boyo).

 

Also animations often aren't set up to accurately what's happening. I think the fuel rod in Halo 5 has lead me to a lot of early reloads because the magazine enters the gun long before it actually reloads in reality.

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1 hour ago, arglactable said:

Absolutely agree. There is no reason to pander to console players with a PC port. All it will accomplish is undermining the real potential of the PC experience, holding it back to recreate the mediocre experience the console players are nostalgic for. I can think of no good reason to support aim assist for controllers in a PC FPS and I have about as much interest in playing against console aim assist in match-making as I would playing against players with aim hacks (or, rather, aim hacks that aren't built into the game to help controller players).

 

Controller is worse than a mouse in that it is objectively less precise. It is NOT worse than a mouse in terms of actual effectiveness in many games, assuming aim assists are enabled. Given the extremely long kill times, slow movement, giant reticles, etc in Halo and the relatively low aim requirement for all but the head shot, the advantages of mouse aim aren't likely to be a factor in most fights, even ignoring the rest of the sandbox (like grenades). The only weapon I can think of where mouse aim is likely to provide an advantage over aim assist is the sniper rifle. If anything, the console players will have the advantage in most fights.

Which is the primary reason I am not interested in match-making cross-play or full controller support on PC.

After actually having played H2V when PC players were actually around before most people around here hopped on board just pre MCC you're right that the real difference is with the snipe as far as blatantly obvious moments that nearly never happen on console. BR battles somewhat out of RRR are another point where its noticeable. You really don't want a zoom battle with a good PC player because they don't even have to zoom in. Controller movement is superior to that of a keyboard as well. Outside of the people using macros for button glitches (yeah get ready) playing with a controller was actually fine and you didn't really notice it until someone looked straight up nigh instantly and blained you once in awhile. I'd prefer optional crossplay and controller support on PC though for that reason under the assumption that it will be policed and updated to prevent people from tricking the game into thinking their mouse is a controller and having the best of both worlds. Just have an option for people to opt out of the other platform or input devices games in MM. That would also provide 343 an avenue to just completely disable aim assist in your client based on what you selected and prevent aim assist abuse with the mouse in lobbies or games where its assumed the mouse is the only input device.

The other big reason that I think crossplay really is the right move is that our community/game isn't really that big anymore. Not everyone is going to play on one or the other and it would be a shame to fragment our community even more than it already is. So while the PC Halo scene wouldn't really be losing players as it hardly exists as of right now it would hurt the console population at a time where we struggle to find games depending on the playlist and time of day. With crossplay MCC on PC could have a positive impact on the console experience and provide the PC population with faster matchmaking. I'd rather us not become CoD with doa PC playlists 

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Late to the party but I would absolutely love Quake style powerups in Halo, IMO the way TDM functions is something that Halo's Team Slayer should be striving for. Being in or out of control when it is known a powerup/s is/are coming, how you deal with that situation becomes objective gametype in and of itself.

If everyone is reading the game and you lose the powerup then really you forego the advantage, much in the same way you would lose a cap in CTF or time in KOTH. However powerups have the added advantage of having the objective efficiency be entertaining as fuck to watch or play while one person terrorizes the other team for 20-30 seconds.

In my mind it works much in the same way that the ultimate economy works in Overwatch, if  you're reading the game correctly you can mitigate the effectiveness when the other team has a distinct advantage but if they do execute correctly and vaporize your team that's not the sign to 'pick up your ball and go home', if anything you should be thinking how much harder you're going to hit them when it's your turn in control. However powerups have the advantage of not gifting individuals/teams powerful abilities purely by existing in the game.

I think we saw a glipse of what that kind of power could be like in Halo in the Lethul vs Snipedown showmatch on H5 where Snipedown gets the 'CE pistol' and goes on a spree. I want to see the best raw slayers in the game get to tear through enemy teams. I want to see how that emphasis on items really shapes teams interactions in Slayer.

I'm picturing something akin Quad and as mentioned previously some implementation of a strong Vampirism powerup on asymmetric timers (so that at points they meet). Make them however skill based you want (reduced AA, increased speed) but to me that is how you refresh Team Slayer and make it its own competitive discipline rather than wishing it were replaced with an objective gametype.

EDIT; does a full charged shot with a plasma pistol again OS with Vampirism in turn give you full OS? I want to live in that world.

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Considering when playing halo online I can dominate a controller player in BR battles on 60fps I’ll add(once you’ve played 144 it’s like going from 60-30 FPS in a way)there’s no reason to feel discouraged from playing controller users. I’d also debate that WASD compared to analog stick isn’t any better in terms of movement because of the way a M&K user can move their Aimer. In h5 pc it has forced aim acceleration  so you can’t have fast movement like you can in other FPS games. Show me a controller player on apex legends with better movement than Dizzy, I’ll wait.

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23 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

I don't get how anyone could possibly be against more options for sensory input, you're just inviting another one of your senses in.  Hell if I could somehow SMELL the guns I'd probably think of a way to use that as well (relax Boyo).

Also animations often aren't set up to accurately what's happening. I think the fuel rod in Halo 5 has lead me to a lot of early reloads because the magazine enters the gun long before it actually reloads in reality.

Yeah, they don't need to be "accurate" in heavy air quotes to still be consistent. Regardless of how they look, they still put a bullet in the mag at the same time, bar empty reloads. You can still learn that. With proper accuracy. 100% of the time. You'll just be laughing at how physically impossible the act is. 

And I didn't say I was "against" it. I just consider it hilariously irrelevant/redundant when the two most prominent ways of showing it are lowkey in nature and don't really add to sensory overload. If it's there, I'd never use it, and I guess it's "fine" to have it. I'll just be pissed if there's information specifically relegated to it. Because it's an at best needless, at worst, shit thing otherwise.

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43 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Hell if I could somehow SMELL the guns I'd probably think of a way to use that as well (relax Boyo).

Woah woah woah, we huffing guns in here now?

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1 hour ago, careh said:

Late to the party but I would absolutely love Quake style powerups in Halo, IMO the way TDM functions is something that Halo's Team Slayer should be striving for. Being in or out of control when it is known a powerup/s is/are coming, how you deal with that situation becomes objective gametype in and of itself.

If everyone is reading the game and you lose the powerup then really you forego the advantage, much in the same way you would lose a cap in CTF or time in KOTH. However powerups have the added advantage of having the objective efficiency be entertaining as fuck to watch or play while one person terrorizes the other team for 20-30 seconds.

In my mind it works much in the same way that the ultimate economy works in Overwatch, if  you're reading the game correctly you can mitigate the effectiveness when the other team has a distinct advantage but if they do execute correctly and vaporize your team that's not the sign to 'pick up your ball and go home', if anything you should be thinking how much harder you're going to hit them when it's your turn in control. However powerups have the advantage of not gifting individuals/teams powerful abilities purely by existing in the game.

I think we saw a glipse of what that kind of power could be like in Halo in the Lethul vs Snipedown showmatch on H5 where Snipedown gets the 'CE pistol' and goes on a spree. I want to see the best raw slayers in the game get to tear through enemy teams. I want to see how that emphasis on items really shapes teams interactions in Slayer. 

I'm picturing something akin Quad and as mentioned previously some implementation of a strong Vampirism powerup on asymmetric timers (so that at points they meet). Make them however skill based you want (reduced AA, increased speed) but to me that is how you refresh Team Slayer and make it its own competitive discipline rather than wishing it were replaced with an objective gametype.

 

Very good post. Powerups have been criminally underused given how much potential they have.

Quote

EDIT; does a full charged shot with a plasma pistol again OS with Vampirism in turn give you full OS? I want to live in that world.

Oh my haven't even though of that. Would be crazy if someone managed to pull that off.

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55 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Considering when playing halo online I can dominate a controller player in BR battles on 60fps I’ll add(once you’ve played 144 it’s like going from 60-30 FPS in a way)there’s no reason to feel discouraged from playing controller users. I’d also debate that WASD compared to analog stick isn’t any better in terms of movement because of the way a M&K user can move their Aimer. In h5 pc it has forced aim acceleration  so you can’t have fast movement like you can in other FPS games. Show me a controller player on apex legends with better movement than Dizzy, I’ll wait.

Halo Online if a fucking awful example for controller use on PC. That game is notorious for having game settings that mean the game practically aims for you once you plug in a controller. 

In fact, Halo Online is the reason I am against crossplay or any form of controller hand-holding in MCC PC. Its the first Halo PC launch in over a decade, cater specifically to the PC audience that has been waiting so long for a Halo experience on PC, instead of shitting all over it with aim assist for anyone who plugs in a controller. Any form of crossplay in PvP is already likely off the table seeing as 343 have said they are doing some balance tweaks to some weapons due to the accuracy of a mouse compared to a controller.

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22 minutes ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

Halo Online if a fucking awful example for controller use on PC. That game is notorious for having game settings that mean the game practically aims for you once you plug in a controller. 

In fact, Halo Online is the reason I am against crossplay or any form of controller hand-holding in MCC PC. Its the first Halo PC launch in over a decade, cater specifically to the PC audience that has been waiting so long for a Halo experience on PC, instead of shitting all over it with aim assist for anyone who plugs in a controller. Any form of crossplay in PvP is already likely off the table seeing as 343 have said they are doing some balance tweaks to some weapons due to the accuracy of a mouse compared to a controller.

Destiny 2 did that based on your input device. Aka handcannons worked differently in real time depending on which device you were using for input. Point being you can have both so why not allow crossplay as an option? People out here really wanting less and a smaller population when everything they want for a pure PC experience could simply be a toggle before you start to search playlists. All of the console options including aim assist already exist. Work would have to be done to remove and alter it. Might as well just leave the option, allow people to opt out, and continue building the PC support that has to be created anyways.

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1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

The other big reason that I think crossplay really is the right move is that our community/game isn't really that big anymore. 

I mean that, and the option literally will not kill people if it's conveyed to you, ala Fortnite. I don't see a problem with the option in this case since it'll make the game openly more accessible. OBVIOUSLY you should make comp lists one input or the other, which I guess would vary by tournament. But for social? Past the warriors who exist, and could be stopped or mitigated through simple party restrictions, I don't see much a problem, lol. So you can choose to play with one input, the other, or both. Literally best case scenario since everybody will win and get what they want.

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Controller on halo online is absolutely terrible and nothing like console, I hate it! Hopefully MCC on PC feels with controller is a lot better.  

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4 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I mean that, and the option literally will not kill people if it's conveyed to you, ala Fortnite. I don't see a problem with the option in this case since it'll make the game openly more accessible. OBVIOUSLY you should make comp lists one input or the other, which I guess would vary by tournament. But for social? Past the warriors who exist, and could be stopped or mitigated through simple party restrictions, I don't see much a problem, lol. So you can choose to play with one input, the other, or both. Literally best case scenario since everybody will win and get what they want.

To be fair these days console and pc users can play with each other. It’s starting to be ok these days. It’s just the fact not all games go the mega high AA like fortnite or halo online. I think apex aim assist is the perfect mix. It’s not low but not high either. 

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3 hours ago, Gold said:

Controller on halo online is absolutely terrible and nothing like console, I hate it! Hopefully MCC on PC feels with controller is a lot better.  

Even mouse feels terrible on PC, it has some kind of input delay/lag, it's nowhere near as snappy as other games and you can noticeably feel the drag of the cross-hair.

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9 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

 

It's just a tool.  Whether or not it's execution has historically been done well is a different story but I've absolutely found examples that I know to be true for me.  I have no idea when I'm hitting the max slide potential in apex on PC because my FOV is wide enough that the speed boost from it blends in. I know it on controller because there's a soft rumble.  Halo 5 has a vibration hint when the magazine enters the gun I believe that tells you when you can YY.  Obviously a lot of these things as you said can be done through audio but it's nice to have the option.  There is such thing as audio overload so it's nice to off load some of their weight when you can.

I always thought vibration was just bad and made me panic in tricky situations, but this post has convinced me it could be used in interesting ways.

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