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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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14 hours ago, Mow said:

The problem is we are all deeply entrenched in our own opinions at this point in Halo's life-cycle, I still think we can have interesting discussions about our opinions on Halo without it going sour but being able to consider the possibility that our own opinions might be wrong can go a long way.

But that would require maturity and respect...

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@Fixaimingsorry Why are you even trying to discuss this if you repeatedly devolve into "Well that's subjective, that's your opinion".  Why have any converse at all if you default to that every time you're backed into a corner? It's pretty telling someone doesn't have any more reasoning to stand on when they default to claiming subjectivity. Beyond choosing your favorite color there's objectivity and truth to everything.  You denying that doesn't make it any less true, it just makes you wrong.

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1 hour ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Halo without meaningful power items is just fucking boring to me. It adds flavour to a game that would play similarly 99% of the time. 

It's like getting a power play in hockey. You'll see the game change up with resulting shifts in momentum. 

I get why people would prefer pistols only Halo, it's arguably more "skillful" but to me it's just boring. 

Ideally the power items would have an element of skill to using them. Camo is interesting because you can utilize it in so many ways and you need to have patience and discipline. Overshield is just a one free death powerup basically. There's not much to it. 

I do agree the rockets in CE are OP. I think a sniper is a better power weapon because it requires skill. It's not just a couple free kills. You can kill the rocket guy if you're quick but let's be honest they usually have to mess up. This potential to mess up or get outplayed while using rockets does add to the momentum shifts I talked about above but it just seems a little too easy. Perhaps a faster, wider rocket projectile with less splash damage (so an emphasis on body shots, and requiring two rockets to kill via splash damage) would be more interesting.

Big wut face

 

power weapons are more fun/interesting (popular subjective opinion) but are more skillful (objectively). The best at ce wouldnt be the best if there were no power weps. If power weps didnt take skill, the people who would be the best without them would be the best now. Hence we can conclude that power weps/ups just add onto the skill ceiling.  

 

U dont have to mess up to die with rox. U cant cover every option. If u pick wrong / he picks right, hes better than u in that moment. Its not really a mistake as there is never 100% a right answer. Like u can walk out with rox on top pr on chilly, not even peek needler to be safe then get sniped by a guy jumping off needler towards window. If u were earlier or later at peeking, wouldnt have worked. But he read youd be there and executed a hard snipe. Its not a bad play, you didnt mess up. 

 

Tho yeah i mean they can miss their rocket or not check a corner which is common enough when u are trying to think about everything. 

 

Non lethal rocks just makes breaking position an impractical task on damnation. Itd be weaker than OS as a power thing. 

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1 hour ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Perhaps a faster, wider rocket projectile with less splash damage (so an emphasis on body shots, and requiring two rockets to kill via splash damage) would be more interesting.

Hard no.  Rocks are the be all, end all of power weapons.  No one is getting direct impacts with rockets.  Non lethal splash damage would make rocks worthless.

The Railgun is more what you are describing.

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That's a pretty general statement, are we talking the number of booms available in game, are we talking how big each area's boom is, are we talking about how much damage each boom does. Because there's more grenades and "boom" weapons in Halo 4 than CE, and Halo 4's RL is weaker than CE. Is it a fact Halo 4 is better than CE now?

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1 minute ago, JordanB said:

That's a pretty general statement, are we talking the number of booms available in game, are we talking how big each area's boom is, are we talking about how much damage each boom does. Because there's more grenades and "boom" weapons in Halo 4 than CE, and Halo 4's RL is weaker than CE. Is it a fact Halo 4 is better than CE now?

There are more boom booms in CE dude. 

And yes. Yes it is. 

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1 minute ago, My Namez BEAST said:

There are more boom booms in CE dude. 

And yes. Yes it is. 

Boom boom doesn't really describe anything specific. We can use big words. The RL and grenades are stronger in CE but there's a lot more viable boom weapons and grenades in H4 than CE. So there may be a higher chance of a boom occurring in H4. Your statement is not specific at all. To say one game is factually better than another based solely on "boom booms"? And I'll be waiting for the official poll that says Halo 4 is better than CE. 

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1 minute ago, JordanB said:

Boom boom doesn't really describe anything specific. We can use big words. The RL and grenades are stronger in CE but there's a lot more viable boom weapons and grenades in H4 than CE. So there may be a higher chance of a boom occurring in H4. Your statement is not specific at all. To say one game is factually better than another based solely on "boom booms"? And I'll be waiting for the official poll that says Halo 4 is better than CE. 

Halo CE has more boomy booms dude stop saying h4 does. 4 nuke nades 8 max at any time with a ton on the map. More rockets. It's more boomy booms dude. I don't need a poll to tell me anything. More boomy booms less good. 

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15 hours ago, LI Mr X IL said:

It’s nostalgia when you start up an old game, play it for a couple of hours, and then realize there are better games and shut it off to go play the latest game never to touch the old game again. It isn’t nostalgia when you continuously play it again and again and in some cases pretty much only it. It also isn’t nostalgia when new players are still picking it up today and getting into it. It want really an appeal to popularity because in terms of number of players H5 probably has a higher player count than CE. My point is that the people who are playing CE are playing a game that came out 17 years ago. I highly doubt the people playing H5 now are going to be playing it 17 years from now. There’s something about the gameplay. It may not be your flavor of Halo but it is my flavor of Halo.

Perfect counter for the dumbass MuH NoSTaLGiA argument. I wish r/halo could have this as the pinned post. 

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1 hour ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Halo without meaningful power items is just fucking boring to me. It adds flavour to a game that would play similarly 99% of the time. 

It's like getting a power play in hockey. You'll see the game change up with resulting shifts in momentum. 

I get why people would prefer pistols only Halo, it's arguably more "skillful" but to me it's just boring. 

Ideally the power items would have an element of skill to using them. Camo is interesting because you can utilize it in so many ways and you need to have patience and discipline. Overshield is just a one free death powerup basically. There's not much to it. 

It literally plays similarly with them. MORE so than without. You're having to push the same angles for power weapons, or power ups, or you're giving it up. At the same times, barring certain dumb times where the weapon's based on a pickup/disturbance timer (And is abused hardcore, lmao). It's literally "limiting" you by design. Especially on maps like Pit. Where this IS only two ways to get to the rockets. If variety is your flavor to making a game not play the same, power weapons ain't it, chief. If anything, going from Bronze to Onyx-tier players would result in more variety because the playstyles of players change dramatically over the ranks, and you'd have to respond to it on the fly. It wouldn't be good for long term problem solving, but hey, it's flashy and provides differences.

Don't get why cheese makes the game less boring, either. It just makes it more frustrating because there's a pseudo-hard cap on how good you can be with power weapons like rocks existing. Given all your skill, map movement, and knowhow can be destroyed by someone who just splash damages you. Or you're stopped from pushing certain angles when a sniper holds it. Because there is a literal 10x zoom function that can lock down a portion of the map. I don't get how that's fun. One just limits your movement in dumb ways, and may force you to take a less advantageous angle by design, and the other just outright kills you and stops you from moving in general, lol.

1 minute ago, Basu said:

Perfect counter for the dumbass MuH NoSTaLGiA argument. I wish r/halo could have this as the pinned post. 

But not a good counter to anything of true relevance, here. Only offhand comments.

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1 hour ago, Riddler said:

Big wut face

 

power weapons are more fun/interesting (popular subjective opinion) but are more skillful (objectively). The best at ce wouldnt be the best if there were no power weps. If power weps didnt take skill, the people who would be the best without them would be the best now. Hence we can conclude that power weps/ups just add onto the skill ceiling.  

 

U dont have to mess up to die with rox. U cant cover every option. If u pick wrong / he picks right, hes better than u in that moment. Its not really a mistake as there is never 100% a right answer. Like u can walk out with rox on top pr on chilly, not even peek needler to be safe then get sniped by a guy jumping off needler towards window. If u were earlier or later at peeking, wouldnt have worked. But he read youd be there and executed a hard snipe. Its not a bad play, you didnt mess up. 

 

Tho yeah i mean they can miss their rocket or not check a corner which is common enough when u are trying to think about everything. 

 

Non lethal rocks just makes breaking position an impractical task on damnation. Itd be weaker than OS as a power thing. 

This is flawed reasoning imo. Because for example, you could argue the sniper in Halo 2 takes skill and thus adds to the skill ceiling of that game, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who says making it an even more skillful weapon ala Halo 1 or 3 is a bad idea. 

And saying it's too hard to break setups without rockets in Damnation is not a condemnation of my idea, but of Damnation as a map. Again you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think Damnation could be better designed to be less stalematey and weighted towards green room. 

Besides this, you're just flat out wrong imo. The best players can break green setups without the rockets. They can use grenades as artillery for example or bait camo and snipe people going for it. A weaker rocket would still be viable as well. 

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4 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It literally plays similarly with them. MORE so than without. You're having to push the same angles for power weapons, or power ups, or you're giving it up. At the same times, barring certain dumb times where the weapon's based on a pickup/disturbance timer (And is abused hardcore, lmao). It's literally "limiting" you by design. Especially on maps like Pit. Where this IS only two ways to get to the rockets. If variety is your flavor to making a game not play the same, power weapons ain't it, chief. If anything, going from Bronze to Onyx-tier players would result in more variety because the playstyles of players change dramatically over the ranks, and you'd have to respond to it on the fly. It wouldn't be good for long term problem solving, but hey, it's flashy and provides differences.

Don't get why cheese makes the game less boring, either. It just makes it more frustrating because there's a pseudo-hard cap on how good you can be with power weapons like rocks existing. Given all your skill, map movement, and knowhow can be destroyed by someone who just splash damages you. Or you're stopped from pushing certain angles when a sniper holds it. Because there is a literal 10x zoom function that can lock down a portion of the map. I don't get how that's fun. One just limits your movement in dumb ways, and may force you to take a less advantageous angle by design, and the other just outright kills you and stops you from moving in general, lol.

You can play different angles or play more aggressively or defensively if you have certain power items. That's the differences in gameplay I mean. For example I can take way different flanking routes when I have camo even if someone is looking at that sightline. The opposing team temporarily has to account for way more possibilities which leads to less predictable outcomes and more exciting opportunities to break up the usual gameplay. And it is still skillful because people know where and when this item is coming up and have to contest it unlike random items in Smash bros. 

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

Hard no.  Rocks are the be all, end all of power weapons.  No one is getting direct impacts with rockets.  Non lethal splash damage would make rocks worthless.

The Railgun is more what you are describing.

No one? Shit happens all the time and would happen more frequently if people actually went for it (what I imagine is people would aim for the legs, so it would still do damage if it wasn't a direct hit). And people get non lethal rocket hits in CE fairly often as well and switch even to the AR to clean up because they don't want to waste another rocket. 

And sure, I guess you could just swap it for a railgun. As long as aim assist is low. 

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

@TheIcePrincess  What is your ideal power weapon or power up?

Ideally nothing inherently offensive. Speed boost, maybe. I'd just be refining the core weapons you spawn with over trying to add map pickups you NEED to play around. 

1 minute ago, VinnyMendoza said:

You can play different angles or play more aggressively or defensively if you have certain power items. That's the differences in gameplay I mean. For example I can take way different flanking routes when I have camo even if someone is looking at that sightline. The opposing team temporarily has to account for way more possibilities which leads to less predictable outcomes and more exciting opportunities to break up the usual gameplay. And it is still skillful because people know where and when this item is coming up and have to contest it unlike random items in Smash bros. 

Okay, but here's the key thing. The leading argument in the end is making the game more unpredictable. Why do we want that in what should be a competitive shooter where consistency is valued. Like, yeah, camo gets freeroam of the map. That's why I despise it, lol. Because you can get uncontested movement with it and throw a wrench into map flow. And given most comp games also neuter the motion tracker that'd enable you to "see" them, you're basically blind and at their mercy, given you're not just dealing with the camo player but also 3 others. 

Additionally, you could also play those prior mentioned angles if you designed your settings and maps properly without power weapons. The fact you could do that isn't exclusive to power weapons, it's just made more prominent in a poor twist because you can do it uncontested with them. You could play dumb and fly with them and still nuke competition. That's what allows you to do it.

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12 minutes ago, VinnyMendoza said:

This is flawed reasoning imo. Because for example, you could argue the sniper in Halo 2 takes skill and thus adds to the skill ceiling of that game, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who says making it an even more skillful weapon ala Halo 1 or 3 is a bad idea. 

And saying it's too hard to break setups without rockets in Damnation is not a condemnation of my idea, but of Damnation as a map. Again you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think Damnation could be better designed to be less stalematey and weighted towards green room. 

Besides this, you're just flat out wrong imo. The best players can break green setups without the rockets. They can use grenades as artillery for example or bait camo and snipe people going for it. A weaker rocket would still be viable as well. 

Meant to add break with rocks as youd be better off not using them to break setups

plenty of people think dammy is dumb, few think its not good  

 

for h2 snipe... snipe has the potential to be better than rox at any range. Theyre different niches and cant be directly compared. we had the h4 beam and its bad because its free kills at any range. Snipe doesnt have a weakness so it needs to be harder.  We have h3 rocks which are bad because its too nerfed (speed is too slow).  Rocks are still good close range in h3 but since they arent good med u cant be aggressive which is boring. 

 

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10 minutes ago, VinnyMendoza said:

No one? Shit happens all the time and would happen more frequently if people actually went for it (what I imagine is people would aim for the legs, so it would still do damage if it wasn't a direct hit). And people get non lethal rocket hits in CE fairly often as well and switch even to the AR to clean up because they don't want to waste another rocket. 

And sure, I guess you could just swap it for a railgun. As long as aim assist is low. 

Most weapons require direct impacts to damage a player.  Explosives are unique in that they can damage players indirectly.  Rockets are unique in that they are the only explosive that can kill a player with splash damage.  In addition, I think it would be stupid if I could fire a rocket point blank at an enemy and not kill myself from the resultant splash damage.  Part of the balance of rocks is not being able to treat it like a shotgun.

 

 

6 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Ideally nothing inherently offensive. Speed boost, maybe. I'd just be refining the core weapons you spawn with over trying to add map pickups you NEED to play around. 

Are you saying there are no weapons that you would want as on map pick ups in Halo?

 

 

5 minutes ago, Riddler said:

Snipe doesnt have a weakness so it needs to be harder

No visible reticle while unscoped.

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3 hours ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Why would we remove spread if it weren't true? 

Try to crossmap a guy in hang em repeatedly. There's significant spread at long range. Larry is right that pacing the shot doesn't do anything though. So it's not the same bloom as Reach. 

The bloom thing is what I'm talking about. Spread is a thing obviously. 

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4 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

The bloom thing is what I'm talking about. Spread is a thing obviously. 

Gotcha 

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7 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Most weapons require direct impacts to damage a player.  Explosives are unique in that they can damage players indirectly.  Rockets are unique in that they are the only explosive that can kill a player with splash damage.  In addition, I think it would be stupid if I could fire a rocket point blank at an enemy and not kill myself from the resultant splash damage.  Part of the balance of rocks is not being able to treat it like a shotgun.

Perhaps just a smaller splash damage radius then. If you're almost touching the other guy yeah you should definitely still die. 

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Just now, VinnyMendoza said:

Perhaps just a smaller splash damage radius then. If you're almost touching the other guy yeah you should definitely still die. 

If the splash radius is smaller, then projectile speed needs to be faster.  I think part of the charm of the Rocket Launcher is the relatively slow projectile speed coupled with the large blast radius.

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8 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Are you saying there are no weapons that you would want as on map pick ups in Halo?

There aren't many I want, no. Because even at its most benign, you get shit like Halo 5, where you spawn with a capable AR/precision weapon and tons of map pickups are straight upgrades of them that you have to rely on to be successful. Was garbage and it wasn't even a set of power weapons. Map pickups in general are meh. I just want good, straight gunfights. Where the changes in gameplay come from how YOU handle the map and what you choose to do, which obj gametypes like CTF let you run with in spades. Not what map pickups dictate you do.

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16 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Ideally nothing inherently offensive. Speed boost, maybe. I'd just be refining the core weapons you spawn with over trying to add map pickups you NEED to play around. 

Okay, but here's the key thing. The leading argument in the end is making the game more unpredictable. Why do we want that in what should be a competitive shooter where consistency is valued. Like, yeah, camo gets freeroam of the map. That's why I despise it, lol. Because you can get uncontested movement with it and throw a wrench into map flow. And given most comp games also neuter the motion tracker that'd enable you to "see" them, you're basically blind and at their mercy, given you're not just dealing with the camo player but also 3 others. 

Additionally, you could also play those prior mentioned angles if you designed your settings and maps properly without power weapons. The fact you could do that isn't exclusive to power weapons, it's just made more prominent in a poor twist because you can do it uncontested with them. You could play dumb and fly with them and still nuke competition. That's what allows you to do it.

You can't make a game completely predictable though. There's a fine line. A perfectly predictable game would be like octagon. No one is arguing that it's not really skillful, but it's also not as replayable or interesting. 

Like I said I see where you're coming from and I think it comes down to preference in how much unpredictability you desire. I think a little more unpredictability that is temporary and was earned and promotes more map movement is acceptable. 

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