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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 hour ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

If you miss a shot on 85% bloom it’s literally because you did nothing but spam. But I do agree with you. 

The thing is, in most ranges you actually fight people at on the arena maps in Reach you can spam and are more likely to win the fight than if you pace. This is true even at 85% (even more so since the bloom is less punishing) If you dislike normal bloom wanting to keep it in any form is backwards thinking

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37 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Appreciate the honesty in opinion, even though I disagree. 

 

I think my opinion just stems from the very fundamental claim that spamming is bad. I don't see it as spamming any more than I see shooting the BR at the correct rate of fire as spsmmimg. If they wanted it to shoot slower, they could've just made the gun shoot slower. Or used the overheat mechanic which already existed in Halo as a punishment for shooting too fast, rather than bloom.

 

I just don't agree that shot pacing is even s skill. If there was a specific timing you wanted to hit akin to active reloading in gears, then it could be a skill. But there isn't - you're just waiting. And if you want to wait longer then you wait longer, there's no way to mess up. 

Pacing shots is a natural thing regarding certain guns, it’s in order to be more accurTe. It’s especially good to do this with a DMR(Pubg be a good example of this) . But 1. Overheat isn’t a thing with human weaponry, the only exceptions are weapons like the chain gun, the BR also has random spread and not bloom. Bloom at the very least is controllable. 

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8 minutes ago, infraction said:

The thing is, in most ranges you actually fight people at on the arena maps in Reach you can spam and are more likely to win the fight than if you pace. This is true even at 85% (even more so since the bloom is less punishing) If you dislike normal bloom wanting to keep it in any form is backwards thinking

I don’t mind spamming, but 85% bloom is balanced for what it’s aorth. Heck’s pacing your shots is also a lot better on it(better to pace at distances). Fort nite has bloom in order to make ranged battles not get you killed so easily. Shoot an AR at someone in CQC and they die near instantly. Now everyone hates bloom in fort nite and anyone who plays it wants projectile with recoil. Bloom isn’t bad like random spread in my eyes because bloom can be controlled from pacing shots. 

As for multis suggestion of slowing the rate of fire, how slow we talking here? You don’t know like at all do you? You couldn’t even test it properly, because too slow a fire rate is just boring. 85% bloom isn’t a problem like at all.

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I don't mind bloom on autos but fuck bloom. spread, recoil and all that shit on "precision weapons"

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5 hours ago, Hard Way said:

And it shows in their arguments. Why do you value the opinion of the willfully ignorant?

Even if they're willfully ignorant, I still like to read differing opinions. People do have interesting things to say or characteristics to learn of so I take value in the information gained from it. 

 

4 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

The Reach title update is distinct from every other game's title update because it was never implemented globally. It might be just as accurate to say that a bunch of new gametypes were released halfway through the game's life cycle.

Social MCC doesn't even have playlists anymore, and if they're coming back special for Reach I haven't heard about it. In MCC's "social games" menu right now you pick the game(s) you'd be okay with playing, the size of the lobby you want, and the gametype(s) you'd be okay with playing, and the system searches for players and creates a lobby that agrees with the parameters you have set. Assuming Reach is implemented as just another possible game (and invasion, headhunter and whatever else as other possible gametypes) to choose from in "social games", I have a hard time seeing multiple versions of Reach coexisting under that system. In that case it's almost certainly going to be vanilla that wins out, since again, shit like invasion and the most popular team slayer playlist was never title updated, and that's what most of the people actually excited for Reach multiplayer on MCC are looking forward to playing. There is no "TU crowd" that's only interested in playing title updated Reach, that wouldn't be covered by a V7 ranked playlist or even just the availability of zero bloom custom gametypes. Nobody misses 85% bloom and nerfed (but still present) armor lock.

That's the other thing; nobody who disliked vanilla Reach has any reason to give a shit about Reach coming to MCC, or shit bricks if the title update isn't present. V7 was pretty nice when it came out, but at that time there was no good way of playing Halo 1 online, the Halo 2 servers had just been shut down, and it took 45 minutes to find a game on Halo 3 (and when you did find one you'd be lucky if the host was in the same hemisphere as you). Now, we can just go play Halo 1 or Halo 2 or whatever - without even having to return to the console dashboard - so who cares if Reach sucks? Let the kids who want to play invasion, team slayer, BTB on Hemorrhage, and whatever else do so the way they liked it.

Like I said, there's nothing stopping 343 or whoever's overseeing this from making a hardcore playlist in the "competitive games" section with V7 settings, which ought to be plenty for anyone truly thirsty for zero bloom Reach.

[There is no "TU crowd" that's only interested in playing title updated Reach, that wouldn't be covered by a V7 ranked playlist]

Why do you assume that the people who would want to play TU Reach would be happy with a single V7 playlist that is Ranked?   

  • Most people don't want to stress themselves in ultra-competitive environments that is Ranked
  • Shoehorning people into a single playlist because the developers were too lazy to properly balance the TU into Reach is a dumb idea
  • There are people who enjoy Armor Abilities in Social playlists but would like to play on updated settings. They may be divisive on Bloom, not like Bleedthrough (since it was implemented in a way that broke the sandbox), but the nerfs of Armor Lock/Camo and Sword buff were pleasantly received.
  • Regulating a game balance patch to custom gametypes in an initial port of a collection that won't have Forge until several months later will be beyond catastrophic for obvious reasons 

Whether you like it or not, Halo Reach is going to be the game a lot of people will be playing and will be the only majorly populated Halo game on PC for months until the other games come in. If the Original launch of Reach had a shitstorm at launch, you can expect a bigger shitstorm once the PC crowd founds out the Title Update that had sensible features not come in because "well we wanted to please the kids who loved the original Reach on console". 

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Didn't they get rid of all Infinity gametypes in H4 MCC? 🤔

No.

2 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

I just don't agree that shot pacing is even s skill. If there was a specific timing you wanted to hit akin to active reloading in gears, then it could be a skill. But there isn't - you're just waiting. And if you want to wait longer then you wait longer, there's no way to mess up. 

What? What about long range engagements outside of RRR. Are you just gonna haul ass on the trigger, or are you going to slow down and aim as best as you can. Shot pacing is entirely a skill in those circumstances, lol. Because you're not just waiting, you're aiming at your target.

 

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3 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

No.

What? What about long range engagements outside of RRR. Are you just gonna haul ass on the trigger, or are you going to slow down and aim as best as you can. Shot pacing is entirely a skill in those circumstances, lol. Because you're not just waiting, you're aiming at your target.

 

Shooting someone outside of RRR doesn't magically make waiting any more skillful than if it were to happen within it?

 

Again - there's no specific point you're waiting for to hit the trigger during.  You're not matching a specific rhythm, you're literally just not shooting.  There's no "best" time to pull the trigger that couldn't have been better if you just waited, longer (until the reticle fully resets). And even then you're just rolling the dice so it's not even clear if it was the right move. You're gambling, and not even an intelligent way. Not shooting isn't a skill anymore than not sprinting is a skill to recharge your health.  You'd more accurately call it a discipline. 

 

Why is why it irks me when the fall back for bloom is always followed by the inevitable "you just need to skillfully pace your shots".  No, not skillfully.  You just need to wait however long you feel like waiting. Don't confuse not doing something with being skillful. 

 

And reiterating - even as a discipline I don't find it appealing.  Just cap the ROF if that's how fast you want people shooting.

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4 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Shooting someone outside of RRR doesn't magically make waiting any more skillful than if it were to happen within it?

 

Again - there's no specific point you're waiting for to hit the trigger during.  You're not matching a specific rhythm, you're literally just not shooting.  There's no "best" time to pull the trigger that couldn't have been better if you just waited, longer (until the reticle fully resets). And even then you're just rolling the dice so it's not even clear if it was the right move. You're gambling, and not even an intelligent way. Not shooting isn't a skill anymore than not sprinting is a skill to recharge your health.  You'd more accurately call it a discipline. 

 

Why is why it irks me when the fall back for bloom is always followed by the inevitable "you just need to skillfully pace your shots".  No, not skillfully.  You just need to wait however long you feel like waiting. Don't confuse not doing something with being skillful. 

 

And reiterating - even as a discipline I don't find it appealing.  Just cap the ROF if that's how fast you want people shooting.

Big fucking key and question to potential context. Are you just referring to Reach bloom, or do you in general think shot pacing isn't a skill outside of it?

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4 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

If you miss a shot on 85% bloom it’s literally because you did nothing but spam. But I do agree with you. 

Thing is you have to spam. If ur down a shot, you can spam and win even if u physically miss because bloom can make u hit. And ofc spamming 4 then wait for the fifth is statistically better than pacing all 4 shots. 

Then theres the issue of if you have the first two shots, instead of coming out 2 shots ahead if you hit all ur shots, you only come up 1 shot or 0 shots ahead because they spammed and hit 4-5 body shots. 

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10 minutes ago, Darkomantis said:
  • Most people don't want to stress themselves in ultra-competitive environments that is Ranked
  • Shoehorning people into a single playlist because the developers were too lazy to properly balance the TU into Reach is a dumb idea
  • There are people who enjoy Armor Abilities in Social playlists but would like to play on updated settings. They may be divisive on Bloom, not like Bleedthrough (since it was implemented in a way that broke the sandbox), but the nerfs of Armor Lock/Camo and Sword buff were pleasantly received.
  • Regulating a game balance patch to custom gametypes in an initial port that won't future Forge until months later will be beyond catastrophic for obvious reasons 
  • Online ranked Halo in 2019 is a long way from "ultra-competitive"
  • Low demand is a bitch
  • There are also people who enjoy plasma pistol starts on Blood Gulch. Should they get a playlist too?
  • "beyond catastrophic" Okay there, Hamlet.
13 minutes ago, Darkomantis said:

Whether you like it or not, Halo Reach is going to be the game a lot of people will be playing and will be the only majorly populated Halo game on PC for months until the other games come in. If the Original launch of Reach had a shitstorm at launch, you can expect a bigger shitstorm once the PC crowd founds out the Title Update that had sensible features not come in because "well we wanted to please the kids who loved the original Reach on console". 

The amount of people thirsty for half-assed TU Reach is nowhere close to the amount of people who want to play Invasion, Team Slayer, Rumble Pit, and BTB as they were on launch day.

This is the pre-MCC Halo 4 conversation all over again. Back when people were insisting that Halo 4 should be "fixed" for MCC matchmaking to "unify" the experience or some shit, even though a Halo 4 that's been touched up in custom game options is still terrible and not something the target audience would actually play over the other games.

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15 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Big fucking key and question to potential context. Are you just referring to Reach bloom, or do you in general think shot pacing isn't a skill outside of it?

Implementation is everything, right.  So if there was some meter where you had to hit the trigger as the pointer passed a specific point in the middle as it bounced end-to-end for maximum damage, that would be skillful shot pacing. Because there's actually an element of skill to it. You'd be matching a rhythm.  You're not just not doing something, you're waiting for something and there is a chance to be worse at it.  There's no way to be worse at shot pacing than someone else in Reach, just don't pull the trigger lol. Someone isn't more skillful than me because they just chose to shoot slower.

 

I suppose in theory there would be a non-offensive way to accommodate slower shooting but I'd have to see it. Like I said earlier, Halo already had overheating to fill that void. If they wanted to make the DMR battery or heat powered, whatever, and then you could hit 5 max ROF shots for a perfect kill- at the cost of an overheat that would be a much better solution. Delaying a shot here could mean you could afford a 6th shot, perhaps a 7th before the overheat in case you missed. I suppose the slower you fire here in general the more shots you could afford in the "magazine".  More confident players could hit the max ROF every time, less confident players would shoot slower because they know they'd miss.  Seems like a pretty perfect relationship to me.

 

EDIT: Not that I care for the entire discipline of shot-pacing, because I truly don't.  But those ^ would seem like better ways to implement it.

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14 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Implementation is everything, right.  So if there was some meter where you had to hit the trigger as the pointer passed a specific point in the middle as it bounced end-to-end for maximum damage, that would be skillful shot pacing. Because there's actually an element of skill to it. You'd be matching a rhythm.  You're not just not doing something, you're waiting for something and there is a chance to be worse at it.  There's no way to be worse at shot pacing than someone else in Reach, just don't pull the trigger lol. Someone isn't more skillful than me because they just chose to shoot slower.

 

I suppose in theory there would be a non-offensive way to accommodate slower shooting but I'd have to see it. Like I said earlier, Halo already had overheating to fill that void. If they wanted to make the DMR battery or heat powered, whatever, and then you could hit 5 max ROF shots for a perfect kill- at the cost of an overheat that would be a much better solution. Delaying a shot here could mean you could afford a 6th shot, perhaps a 7th before the overheat in case you missed. I suppose the slower you fire here in general the more shots you could afford in the "magazine".  More confident players could hit the max ROF every time, less confident players would shoot slower because they know they'd miss.  Seems like a pretty perfect relationship to me.

I feel dirty defending bloom in any context because it’s complete shit, but I would disagree that skillful pacing doesn’t exist. The example you mentioned about timing it on a meter like you’re kicking a field goal in NFL Blitz isn’t all that different from their intended implementation. The goal is to fire as quickly as possible while maintaining the minimum accuracy needed to hit your shots. So the UI element you’re syncing your shot to would be the reticle closing in on the body/head, and every moment you waste is time they could get away, or more incoming damage for you.

That would be skillful, if ignoring all of that and opting for accuracy by volume wasn’t such a viable alternative.

Their vision of bloom would have worked better (still flawed, but better) if the reticle bloomed out wider, and reset faster. 

That said, an overheat mechanic would be more fun, or Tiberius Audley’s idea of having your reticle shrink with each trigger pull, giving you less aim assistance but still maintaining perfect accuracy.

All in all I don’t think firing cadence discipline, even in its best form, is really worth the hassle of designing around it. At its best it’s barely fun.

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Bloom is an awful mechanic in FPS games for precision weapons. You want to kill your enemy as fast as possible, and the game pushes you to do this, but bloom punishes people who try to do that. It increases the TTK because you have to fire slower than the gun is supposed to so that you don't miss. 

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3 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Bloom is unacceptable in a Halo game. You should never be incentivized to pace your shots. That is a boring as shit way to play and it shouldn't be rewarded.

latest?cb=20170726221414

 

 

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What does a picture of a gun that doesn't have bloom add to the discussion? 

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8 minutes ago, Basu said:

What does a picture of a gun that doesn't have bloom add to the discussion? 

It technically does, but it's negligible. Seems like a silly thing to bring up, since it has no practical effect on gameplay.  Also, NHE removed it.

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19 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

It technically does, but it's negligible. Seems like a silly thing to bring up, since it has no practical effect on gameplay.  Also, NHE removed it.

I thought it only has bloom when the trigger is held down rather than firing each shot or am I wrong in that assumption?

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Reverse bloom on an automatic weapon.  Fire longer to become more accurate.

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I would be Surprised if TU wasn't the standard for Reach. Isn't it the first real thing 343 did with Halo? 

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1 hour ago, S0UL FLAME said:

 

Picture of M6D 

 

 

Adding to what others have already said, I'm sure most CE players would be fine with removing bloom from the Pistol. I don't think anyone has ever defended the bloom, other than to mention that it's negligible (unless you're holding down the trigger, in which case the nuances of bloom are probably the least of your concerns). 

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The irony is that, while not as extreme, Spread and Bloom were founded in the first Halo. Spread and Bloom are now considered "not Halo".

Carry on.

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Bloom sucks. Slowing your shots to hit your target should be natural. If you are spamming shots and missing a bunch you might want to slow your shot and take more time aiming. On the other hand if you can put your reticle on target and squeeze off 4 quick shots while tracking your target the game shouldn’t prevent you from doing it. Also, what happens in a 2v1 where I have to kill two people as quick as possible? If I beat someone in a 1v1 and then his teammate comes around the corner I’m at a disadvantage. I either have to start firing immediately before my bloom has fully reset or I have to hold off for a second while the guy who just came around the corner can start shooting because his bloom is at zero. That’s some bullshit right there. It severely limits your ability to fight multiple opponents and come out on top no matter how good you are. Lastly, it is random at its core which is bad for comp play. Imagine playing in a million dollar tournament only to lose a 49-49 slayer game to a player who spams 3 shots into your chest and has their fourth shot veer up and hit you in the head despite still aiming at your chest while you’re over there “skillfully” pacing your shots and aiming for the head like a moron who just lost a million dollars.

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> HEE HEE HAW HAW THE CE PISTOL HAZ BLOOM IF U HOLD DOWN THE TRIGGER! CHECKMATE, BOOMERS!

> Literally nobody holds down the trigger.

Seriously wasn't this shit settled in like 2011, at the latest?

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