Jump to content
CyReN

Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

Recommended Posts

On 4/13/2019 at 1:15 PM, JordanB said:

When Halo 3 was released Xbox Live didn't even have a party chat feature. It wasn't until late 2008 where party chat even became a feature. At that point Halo 3 had already been out for over a year. And party chat didn't just take off upon release - it was very new and plenty of people still used the game chat system bec that's what they were used to. 

By the time Reach came out in 2010 Party chat was growing rapidly. From what I can recall, that was right around when my friends and I started to almost exclusively use party chat. 

Maybe Bungie didn't help themselves by not including the "press X to party up" feature, but the difference in randoms with mics during Halo 3 and Reach has nothing to do with Bungie. 

I see. I was a pretty bad player at Halo 3 at the time I started playing it online 08-10' but I found myself gaining a lot of friends from individuals who would just sit in the lobbies with an open mic and would be willing to party up for extra matches. It just wasn't the same with Reach. Though the people who played in the Arena and MLG playlists usually had open mics on and were pretty chill. 

 

5 hours ago, Stoppabl3 said:

Any word on what 343 plans to do with reach? They should really overwrite launch reach with the title update version. If I had my way take out bloom all together, doubt anyone would care and it would make the game play 10x  better across the board. 

Ruffian/Splash Damage are the ones working on the PC MCC port. There hasn't really been an open discussion on what they plan to do as far as gameplay goes. People are predicting that they may use the Template console H:Reach has which is split playlists between the Vanilla and TU in order to save time and appeal to "both crowds".

 

5 hours ago, Mow said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the PC community demand that they remove bloom across the board for MCC PC. If 343 thought we were bad with our criticism of them over the years they haven't even met the PC community yet lol, although to be fair I think the PC community will be very grateful at first but 343 better keep up this kind of support they are starting to show now and not just let this be a one time thing.

I agree with your hypothesis that the community would make demands on the Bloom when the first PC flight comes but I'm not sure on how strongly the reaction would be (especially early on) considering that so many people are just overly grateful for PC Halo. A few have already made threads on Bloom/TU but there is generally little comments in the discussions. 

 

4 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

Tbf I don't know if anyone legitimately thought bloom was worthwhile in Reach that actually played it. Now I know you had the super casual bungie/waypoint guys that just defend whatever they first come into contact with settings wise but I mean more so anyone that stopped, set aside bias, and really thought about how bloom felt to play compared to any utility that just shot straight in previous Halo titles. There's no mistaking what 343 really thought once you take a look at the TU then H4 and then H5. If its included its out of sheer nostalgia for the console players who don't know any better.

From what I can tell looking at the popular videos of PC MCC Reach, there are a lot of people who believe that Bloom was a good mechanic that added skill by needing to pace your shots. And they also believe that the competitive crowd just couldn't adapt and were making a fuss over Bloom (and AA, etc). 

  • Upvote (+1) 1
  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

It’s fair to note 85% is more balanced than Zero bloom. It doesn’t make gun fights completely piss easy at range and such but is more forgiving than vanilla.85% on a good connection felt like zero bloom anyway. 85% fixed most of the issues with vanilla bloom. Most of the casual idiots who hate TU, hate the fact anyone who’s good is rewarded For it.

Incorrect again. That's strike 2.

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Why did they not just go back and watch pro gameplay to see that the majority of the best players in the world choose to instead roll the dice 99% of the time and spam their shots? Bloom seems cool until you realize how it interacted with bullet magnetism and the degree of randomness was actually in your favor if you spammed vs paced from most reasonable distances. Sure sometimes pacing that one shot mattered but in A LOT of cases you would more often win against someone pacing their shots by just unloading ASAP. The reason bloom was so absolutely terrible is because it actually failed to introduce skillful shot pacing in the majority of circumstances

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, HeX Reapers said:

Incorrect again. That's strike 2.

When you compare it to the rest of the sandbox, other maps 85% bloom worked greatly. Zero bloom isn’t anything that’s needed here. Don’t just say incorrect without clarifying, because it doesn’t work so great. 85% bloom was completely ok. 

  • Downvote (-1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

Why did they not just go back and watch pro gameplay to see that the majority of the best players in the world choose to instead roll the dice 99% of the time and spam their shots? Bloom seems cool until you realize how it interacted with bullet magnetism and the degree of randomness was actually in your favor if you spammed vs paced from most reasonable distances. Sure sometimes pacing that one shot mattered but in A LOT of cases you would more often win against someone pacing their shots by just unloading ASAP. The reason bloom was so absolutely terrible is because it actually failed to introduce skillful shot pacing in the majority of circumstances

That’s because bloom actually worked as intended. Bloom is less effective in CQC ranges. Bloom was far more effective in longer distances and medium ones as well. 

  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

That’s because bloom actually worked as intended. Bloom is less effective in CQC ranges. Bloom was far more effective in longer distances and medium ones as well. 

Yup the range at which you could effectively spam and kill someone for competitive game modes was also most of the map/angles that were played. However that doesn't mean that bullets didn't miss or that outcomes weren't influenced by it. It just meant that pacing in a lot of cases was statistically the wrong choice. So while it was maybe a more effective tool on a BTB map as far as pacing being a more useful decision it was just a kind of random influence that degraded the competitive integrity of the game in many situations on 4v4 sized maps. It was just badly designed on smaller maps. It could have been better adjusted to showcase a players decision making based around the bloom on the smaller maps but we were never going to completely escape the negative downsides of the random bullets on a single shot weapon. Which is probably why we haven't seen it in another game since

That's not to say everything was bad about bloom though. The thought process when you met someone significantly weaker than yourself or out of position/not looking could be interesting. Since that's where you start to run into the trade off between how quickly you want to win the fight vs how sure you want to be of getting the kill. Ultimately though random outcomes in identical situations is never the right thing for a game like Halo imo

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

Why did they not just go back and watch pro gameplay to see that the majority of the best players in the world choose to instead roll the dice 99% of the time and spam their shots? Bloom seems cool until you realize how it interacted with bullet magnetism and the degree of randomness was actually in your favor if you spammed vs paced from most reasonable distances. Sure sometimes pacing that one shot mattered but in A LOT of cases you would more often win against someone pacing their shots by just unloading ASAP. The reason bloom was so absolutely terrible is because it actually failed to introduce skillful shot pacing in the majority of circumstances

These are the same people who either don't care about or absolutely hate MLG or any Halo league. They probably couldn't even be bothered to pay attention to the gameplay videos of Arena, Reach's Ranked playlist, where high tier players were firing at maximum RoF rather than pacing shots. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

That’s because bloom actually worked as intended. Bloom is less effective in CQC ranges. Bloom was far more effective in longer distances and medium ones as well. 

The problem with the DMR wasn’t bloom.  It’s that it was treated as a utility weapon.  It should have been a low level map pick up in BTB.  Have it deal increased damage to vehicles; bloom is irrelevant something as large as a vehicle.  Give it a higher magnification scope than the utility weapon so it can damage infantry at long range but can’t achieve the minimum killtime due to bloom.  It can ping a sniper out of scope on the first shot then it becomes a race to see if the sniper can re-scope before bloom resets and another accurate shot can be fired.

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Fire (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

They should remove bloom from Reach entirely it was almost near universally despised and the 10 people who like it are basically irrelevant.

Truth be told I’d go as far as to port the MLG settings to the rest of the game barring invasion/campaign/firefight and turn radar on would make the game miles better.

  • Like (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post

If either 85% Bloom or Zero Bloom(less likely) were to be implemented game wide then a Weapon Sandbox rebalance would be warranted in order to accommodate the better precision weapons.

What would you think if, while not removing AAs from regular playlists, Ruffian/Splash Damage decided to Nerf the movement of Sprint and Jetpack and in return they upped the base movement speed to 110%, jumping height to 110%, and player gravity to 150% or something of that line? I'm asking this because I remember a long time ago people were asking for higher movement while nerfing Sprint/Jetpack in order to speed up map movement and game flow in relation to the TU. (though if I remember correctly, BTB had 110% movement)

Share this post


Link to post

They're not going to ship a version of Reach that didn't actually exist in matchmaking during the game's original life cycle. Even I can admit that would be a dumb idea and them playtesting it would be a waste of resources. It's either vanilla, the 85% bloom + nerfed armor lock update, or the same update with zero bloom. Since (from what I remember) the title update was never applied to invasion, which is what the majority of people who actually give a shit about Reach coming back are looking forward to most, or to the 4v4 team slayer playlist that was present from day one and always had the most population, I can only assume that the version of Reach seen in social matchmaking will be pure vanilla, with updated/zero bloom gametypes made available for customs and possibly for a "hardcore" playlist.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

If 343 had a fucking single clue then they would give the game Universal v7 bullets and Not even say a fucking word. There should be zero nuance to it. If you have entirely No problem completely changing (ruining) Halo 1's bullets globally you should have literally zero conceived issue or strain globally changing (fixing) Reaches. with code that was already fucking there. 

  • Toxic (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

They're not going to ship a version of Reach that didn't actually exist in matchmaking during the game's original life cycle. 

Why? They did it to the whole series in MCC 🤔🤔🤔

  • Simms (+1) 1
  • Heavy Breathing (+1) 1
  • Fire (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

They're not going to ship a version of Reach that didn't actually exist in matchmaking during the game's original life cycle. Even I can admit that would be a dumb idea and them playtesting it would be a waste of resources. It's either vanilla, the 85% bloom + nerfed armor lock update, or the same update with zero bloom. Since (from what I remember) the title update was never applied to invasion, which is what the majority of people who actually give a shit about Reach coming back are looking forward to most, or to the 4v4 team slayer playlist that was present from day one and always had the most population, I can only assume that the version of Reach seen in social matchmaking will be pure vanilla, with updated/zero bloom gametypes made available for customs and possibly for a "hardcore" playlist.

It's more of a what-if than anything else. I already mentioned in a earlier comment that Russian/Splash Damage will just follow the Template off console Reach and just have separate playlists for Vanilla and TU. It will be even more of a dumb idea if they had just a single playlist for the TU and relegate the TU crowd to customs considering that way more people will be playing this PC version than the original launch and people will more than likely prefer the updated settings rather than Vanilla. It certainly doesn't help that Forge won't be available. 

But the oddest thing is that we may have a Halo where the Title Update version of it might not be implemented...

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Darkomantis said:

These are the same people who either don't care about or absolutely hate MLG or any Halo league. They probably couldn't even be bothered to pay attention to the gameplay videos of Arena, Reach's Ranked playlist, where high tier players were firing at maximum RoF rather than pacing shots. 

And it shows in their arguments. Why do you value the opinion of the willfully ignorant?

Edit: regarding TU in MM, a few of us are asking for an “Alternate” icon in Match Composer (that’s the nicest word I was willing to use), where we can stuff all the SMG starts, AR starts, Infinity settings and Vanilla Reach stuff. The goal is to quarantine the shitty settings while not having to deal with the bitching of getting rid of them entirely.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Darkomantis said:

It's more of a what-if than anything else. I already mentioned in a earlier comment that Russian/Splash Damage will just follow the Template off console Reach and just have separate playlists for Vanilla and TU. It will be even more of a dumb idea if they had just a single playlist for the TU and relegate the TU crowd to customs considering that way more people will be playing this PC version than the original launch and people will more than likely prefer the updated settings rather than Vanilla. It certainly doesn't help that Forge won't be available. 

But the oddest thing is that we may have a Halo where the Title Update version of it might not be implemented...

The Reach title update is distinct from every other game's title update because it was never implemented globally. It might be just as accurate to say that a bunch of new gametypes were released halfway through the game's life cycle.

Social MCC doesn't even have playlists anymore, and if they're coming back special for Reach I haven't heard about it. In MCC's "social games" menu right now you pick the game(s) you'd be okay with playing, the size of the lobby you want, and the gametype(s) you'd be okay with playing, and the system searches for players and creates a lobby that agrees with the parameters you have set. Assuming Reach is implemented as just another possible game (and invasion, headhunter and whatever else as other possible gametypes) to choose from in "social games", I have a hard time seeing multiple versions of Reach coexisting under that system. In that case it's almost certainly going to be vanilla that wins out, since again, shit like invasion and the most popular team slayer playlist was never title updated, and that's what most of the people actually excited for Reach multiplayer on MCC are looking forward to playing. There is no "TU crowd" that's only interested in playing title updated Reach, that wouldn't be covered by a V7 ranked playlist or even just the availability of zero bloom custom gametypes. Nobody misses 85% bloom and nerfed (but still present) armor lock.

That's the other thing; nobody who disliked vanilla Reach has any reason to give a shit about Reach coming to MCC, or shit bricks if the title update isn't present. V7 was pretty nice when it came out, but at that time there was no good way of playing Halo 1 online, the Halo 2 servers had just been shut down, and it took 45 minutes to find a game on Halo 3 (and when you did find one you'd be lucky if the host was in the same hemisphere as you). Now, we can just go play Halo 1 or Halo 2 or whatever - without even having to return to the console dashboard - so who cares if Reach sucks? Let the kids who want to play invasion, team slayer, BTB on Hemorrhage, and whatever else do so the way they liked it.

Like I said, there's nothing stopping 343 or whoever's overseeing this from making a hardcore playlist in the "competitive games" section with V7 settings, which ought to be plenty for anyone truly thirsty for zero bloom Reach.

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

Yup the range at which you could effectively spam and kill someone for competitive game modes was also most of the map/angles that were played. However that doesn't mean that bullets didn't miss or that outcomes weren't influenced by it. It just meant that pacing in a lot of cases was statistically the wrong choice. So while it was maybe a more effective tool on a BTB map as far as pacing being a more useful decision it was just a kind of random influence that degraded the competitive integrity of the game in many situations on 4v4 sized maps. It was just badly designed on smaller maps. It could have been better adjusted to showcase a players decision making based around the bloom on the smaller maps but we were never going to completely escape the negative downsides of the random bullets on a single shot weapon. Which is probably why we haven't seen it in another game since

That's not to say everything was bad about bloom though. The thought process when you met someone significantly weaker than yourself or out of position/not looking could be interesting. Since that's where you start to run into the trade off between how quickly you want to win the fight vs how sure you want to be of getting the kill. Ultimately though random outcomes in identical situations is never the right thing for a game like Halo imo

You’re not wrong there, which is why I think 85% bloom was perfect. That randomness was basically gone. Hells it played a lot like ZB anyway on a good connection.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

You’re not wrong there, which is why I think 85% bloom was perfect. That randomness was basically gone. Hells it played a lot like ZB anyway on a good connection.

Only, in no way at all. Even .0001% randomness should be eliminated if possible. It's random.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

From what I'm seeing, the current push is for all core gametypes (Slayer, CTF, etc) to be TU, Ranked to be v7, and Invasion, SWAT, Snipers and Infection to be Vanilla. 

  • Like (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Only, in no way at all. Even .0001% randomness should be eliminated if possible. It's random.

If you miss a shot on 85% bloom it’s literally because you did nothing but spam. But I do agree with you. 

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

From what I'm seeing, the current push is for all core gametypes (Slayer, CTF, etc) to be TU, Ranked to be v7, and Invasion, SWAT, Snipers and Infection to be Vanilla. 

I’m completely ok with that tbh. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Didn't they get rid of all Infinity gametypes in H4 MCC? 🤔

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

If you miss a shot on 85% bloom it’s literally because you did nothing but spam. But I do agree with you. 

Appreciate the honesty in opinion, even though I disagree. 

 

I think my opinion just stems from the very fundamental claim that spamming is bad. I don't see it as spamming any more than I see shooting the BR at the correct rate of fire as spsmmimg. If they wanted it to shoot slower, they could've just made the gun shoot slower. Or used the overheat mechanic which already existed in Halo as a punishment for shooting too fast, rather than bloom.

 

I just don't agree that shot pacing is even s skill. If there was a specific timing you wanted to hit akin to active reloading in gears, then it could be a skill. But there isn't - you're just waiting. And if you want to wait longer then you wait longer, there's no way to mess up. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
23 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Appreciate the honesty in opinion, even though I disagree. 

 

I think my opinion just stems from the very fundamental claim that spamming is bad. I don't see it as spamming any more than I see shooting the BR at the correct rate of fire as spsmmimg. If they wanted it to shoot slower, they could've just made the gun shoot slower. Or used the overheat mechanic which already existed in Halo as a punishment for shooting too fast, rather than bloom.

 

I just don't agree that shot pacing is even s skill. If there was a specific timing you wanted to hit akin to active reloading in gears, then it could be a skill. But there isn't - you're just waiting. And if you want to wait longer then you wait longer, there's no way to mess up. 

I remember someone a long time ago said "If I can fire my gun as fast as possible and land every shot why should I be punished for it". That's the whole thing about aiming skill isn't it, fire at optimal speeds and accurately. 

A slower ROF, bloom, or recoil with a faster movement speed does put more pressure on landing shots and missing shots would be detrimental to gun battles. Reach, however, doesn't have fast movement speed. There definitely is skill in being able to cadence shots under pressure, I just don't find it a very fun skill under any circumstance. Bloom personally is the worst of all of the option because it adds the most random chance to the battle. 

Share this post


Link to post
21 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Appreciate the honesty in opinion, even though I disagree. 

 

I think my opinion just stems from the very fundamental claim that spamming is bad. I don't see it as spamming any more than I see shooting the BR at the correct rate of fire as spsmmimg. If they wanted it to shoot slower, they could've just made the gun shoot slower. Or used the overheat mechanic which already existed in Halo as a punishment for shooting too fast, rather than bloom.

 

I just don't agree that shot pacing is even s skill. If there was a specific timing you wanted to hit akin to active reloading in gears, then it could be a skill. But there isn't - you're just waiting. And if you want to wait longer then you wait longer, there's no way to mess up. 

It probably isn't any more of a skill than say, timing map pickups, no. But I will say that I actually kinda like bloom as a balancing mechanic for autos. Allows them to potentially shred in CQC without being too overbearing at mid range, while still allowing burst fire clean ups for that little bit of extra utility so it isn't just a worse shotgun.

If the Reach Magnum was compared to Destiny's Last Word Hand Cannon (Revolver) as more of a CQC precision weapon, I would say that it kinda makes sense there too. But for that I would rather have recoil IMO.

Otherwise for the general utility weapon, hell no. Although I will say that I would rather be guaranteed to have perfect accuracy by pacing shots with the Reach DMR than to always have RNG spread on the H3 BR.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.