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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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3 hours ago, arglactable said:

At distances where noticeable leading is NOT necessary, projectiles introduce a largely uncontrolled factor that might as well be random. And before someone points out that it's not literally random, I know.

This is the range I am currently referring to. I asked, SPECIFICALLY, in a scenario in which lead time is so tiny that no one actually accounts for it (H3 sniper on arena maps), is projectile more skillful? And, again, WHY?

 

I think many people have the underlying assumption that once you reach H3 Sniper on arena map levels, the small distances and projectile speed would essentially make aiming pseudo-hitscan, and therefore redundant to the conversation. I think addressing that assumption would move everyone closer to being on the same page.

 

2 hours ago, arglactable said:


At distances where leading is relevant, you are effectively guessing the distance to determine lead and then correcting when you miss. There is a unquestionable element of luck to this, as much as people want to pretend that you can consistently judge long distances in videogames, you usually can't, unless a specific mechanic exists to help you calibrate. Longer distances involve more GUESS WORK. Not more "skill." Again, unless you actually know what the distance is, which you don't.

Judging distance happens all the time in 3D video games, partly visual, partly map knowledge, and basically any competitive shooter game with projectile mechanics emphasize this at high levels. The best Demoman players in TF2, for example, are insanely quick at accurately arcing pipes in 3D space at any angle imaginable against any target that could be at a number of velocities, and its an aspect that really separates players at even the highest levels. I think "bullet" projectiles can be used in a similar way with the right projectile speeds and map distances, and might actually give the Halo sandbox an excuse to have its 6 or so rifle-like weapons actually have meaningful differences. 

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I always appreciated in reach how if you used the PR it would give that second reticle to shoot at that acted as a lead indicator. That certainly made leading easier.

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Didn’t 343 state that the reason why they won’t make a console port of the 18 year old halo CE using the console version and not the PC version is because if they were to make it play just like halo NHE or close to LAN, that hardly anyone would play any of the other halos or future releases from them as classic CE would be their goto halo?  When MCC first launched, I saw tags from people that I hadn’t seen play in over 15 years.  The amount online playing CE was insane. Then after a few days of realizing it was shit compared to console 85% of those players sold the shit.  From a business standpoint, 343 would lose money on future releases if they made the game correctly on MCC.

 

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7 minutes ago, WARGOD said:

Didn’t 343 state that the reason why they won’t make a console port of the 18 year old halo CE using the console version and not the PC version is because if they were to make it play just like halo NHE or close to LAN, that hardly anyone would play any of the other halos or future releases from them as classic CE would be their goto halo?  When MCC first launched, I saw tags from people that I hadn’t seen play in over 15 years.  The amount online playing CE was insane. Then after a few days of realizing it was shit compared to console 85% of those players sold the shit.  From a business standpoint, 343 would lose money on future releases if they made the game correctly on MCC.

 

Pfffft, you wish. It was done because of the ease of use of porting something with existing network capabilities, IIRC. Had nothing to do with popularity. Just money, work, and the time they had.

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I guess my line of thinking is that I’d rather spend my time getting good at something like chess instead of checkers.  Newer games feel like checkers while older games like halo, quake, and counter strike feel like chess.

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1 hour ago, WARGOD said:

Didn’t 343 state that the reason why they won’t make a console port of the 18 year old halo CE using the console version and not the PC version is because if they were to make it play just like halo NHE or close to LAN, that hardly anyone would play any of the other halos or future releases from them as classic CE would be their goto halo?  When MCC first launched, I saw tags from people that I hadn’t seen play in over 15 years.  The amount online playing CE was insane. Then after a few days of realizing it was shit compared to console 85% of those players sold the shit.  From a business standpoint, 343 would lose money on future releases if they made the game correctly on MCC.

 

I think you might be mixing up mcc with the h1a fiasco. With h1a they claimed that it would lessen the player base of Reach too much if a lot of players switched over. 

Fast forward 3 years and suddenly its ok for the player base to be split literally 10 ways. 

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Keep it civil pls.

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28 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Back to 50 kills to win. -1 Faith in humanity.

You serious? I was liking the 75 kills. 100 was too much but 75 was the perfect balance.

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7 hours ago, Basu said:

Side note and no one really cares but just wanted to clarify: While this is funny as fuck I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be on team projectile lol. Just a few weeks ago I made a post against projectile for Halo Infinite because we all know the chances that 343 nails netcode like Blizzard are slim at best and all we'd get is another MCC CE or H3 or Battlefield 3 experience where you're spamming entire clips at people in hopes of hitting something.

All I did in this "debate" was point out the flawed argument that movement is random and therefore projectile = bad. I still think projectile is either a) meaningless because it's only 1-3 frames travel time when crossmapping BTB maps or b) bullets would have to be so slow that things become comical.

Plus we're still dealing with an online game where people think it's okay to queue with pings of 200+ and tons of packet loss. Plus the so called dedicated servers in MCC and H5 are dogshit at best so I'd rather we get a game like Reach that has a robust af netcode that even works on the shittiest of connections than attempting to force projectile into H:I.

Tbh the dedicated servers improved greatly with this recent update(but only on mcc)  with that said we definitely need greatly improved servers for HI. In h5 the weapons are so accurate where a bullet that doesn’t register can be such a huge game changer.

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Really not getting the recent surge in love for Halo: Reach, campaign specifically. It was short, had pretty lackluster setpieces, and barely capitalized on Noble Team as characters. It wasn't bad but it was pretty boring compared to even ODST (which I really liked but a lot of people shit on it). Maybe it's just a generation that grew up playing it that's now engaging in the community and waxing poetic about it? IDK I remember a lot of people not liking Reach when it came out.

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4 minutes ago, ThievinStealbrg said:

Really not getting the recent surge in love for Halo: Reach, campaign specifically. It was short, had pretty lackluster setpieces, and barely capitalized on Noble Team as characters. It wasn't bad but it was pretty boring compared to even ODST (which I really liked but a lot of people shit on it). Maybe it's just a generation that grew up playing it that's now engaging in the community and waxing poetic about it? IDK I remember a lot of people not liking Reach when it came out.

I remember lots liking it. Literally the only ones who hated reach were the comp community and this was because of bloom & armor lock.

The campaign in reach was really fun for most people I knew, heck’s the complaint it got was “no mc”. 

But unlike h4 this game still felt like a halo game and still had layers of skill into it, that made it enjoyable.

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6 minutes ago, ThievinStealbrg said:

Really not getting the recent surge in love for Halo: Reach, campaign specifically.

Because it's coming to PC

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3 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Because it's coming to PC

Dude people wanted it on Xbox one mcc anyway because the BC version was ass! 30fps and the average host being Mexican or Colombian, yeah that’s a big “hell no” 

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26 minutes ago, ThievinStealbrg said:

Really not getting the recent surge in love for Halo: Reach, campaign specifically. It was short, had pretty lackluster setpieces, and barely capitalized on Noble Team as characters. It wasn't bad but it was pretty boring compared to even ODST (which I really liked but a lot of people shit on it). Maybe it's just a generation that grew up playing it that's now engaging in the community and waxing poetic about it? IDK I remember a lot of people not liking Reach when it came out.

V7/MP mods were cool. Campaign blew so much ass it's not even funny, lol. Game was terrible, there.

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9 hours ago, arglactable said:

That has nothing to do with the question I asked. You are essentially rephrasing the assumption I wanted explained and you're ignoring the specific context I provided. I know you think projectile inherently takes more skill. EXPLAIN IT.

This is why I quickly lose patience with these conversations, but whatever. I'll respond anyway. The idea that the aim skill for projectile lead somehow scales infinitely with distance is silly. More realistically, it can be divided into two real situations. Distances where leading is necessary and distances where it is not.

At distances where leading is relevant, you are effectively guessing the distance to determine lead and then correcting when you miss. There is a unquestionable element of luck to this, as much as people want to pretend that you can consistently judge long distances in videogames, you usually can't, unless a specific mechanic exists to help you calibrate. Longer distances involve more GUESS WORK. Not more "skill." Again, unless you actually know what the distance is, which you don't.

At distances where noticeable leading is NOT necessary, projectiles introduce a largely uncontrolled factor that might as well be random. And before someone points out that it's not literally random, I know.

This is the range I am currently referring to. I asked, SPECIFICALLY, in a scenario in which lead time is so tiny that no one actually accounts for it (H3 sniper on arena maps), is projectile more skillful? And, again, WHY?

Clearly projectile isn't any more skillful than hitscan at very close range where travel time is minimized and the effect of a projectile system is indistinguishable. This isn't a useful factor at all in determining which system to use. You have to ask what happens at that range (it isn't very far in CE where strafing becomes a huge factor to account for when aiming) where projectiles are differentiable from hitscan in how they impact your target. You invoke "guess work" as a perjorative in your argument when it is easily evident that better players "guess" better than others when leading is required to land shots. I would argue that it's a fun element to the game where sometimes you guess wrong and have to make the proper adjustments. I always know when I miss that the fault is on me because the information is in front of my face the entire time on where to aim. It's a built-up intuition that everyone can have with every skill they learn. I'm pretty decent at judging long distances in CE so sure maybe some people can't do it very well, that's fine, but it doesn't mean you immediately remove projectiles from the game when it's a well-known skill people can develop. If people couldn't learn it then nobody could become a quarterback or soccer player.

I don't know enough about H3 to comment on it specifically but hopefully I addressed your questions.

My question for you is what uncontrolled factor do projectiles introduce at close range where they function identically to hitscan?

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1 hour ago, ThievinStealbrg said:

Really not getting the recent surge in love for Halo: Reach, campaign specifically. It was short, had pretty lackluster setpieces, and barely capitalized on Noble Team as characters. It wasn't bad but it was pretty boring compared to even ODST (which I really liked but a lot of people shit on it). Maybe it's just a generation that grew up playing it that's now engaging in the community and waxing poetic about it? IDK I remember a lot of people not liking Reach when it came out.

Not to mention the level, encounter, and enemy design is absolutely horrible. Second worst campaign after H5.

Most of the people still active on Halo forums are people who started playing either during Reach or during the tail end of H3 and Reach was the first Halo they experienced at launch.

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1 hour ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Halo 4 is better than Halo 3.

You're not my friend.

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6 hours ago, Hard Way said:

Back to 50 kills to win. -1 Faith in humanity.

All so people like Ogre 2 can party up and pubstomp without having to spend as much time searching for the last guy when 3 of the other team's randoms inevitably quit out. Tackling the real problems.

"they just don't caaare, maaaaaaaaan..." *vocal fry triggers headset feedback*

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6 hours ago, ThievinStealbrg said:

Really not getting the recent surge in love for Halo: Reach, campaign specifically. It was short, had pretty lackluster setpieces, and barely capitalized on Noble Team as characters. It wasn't bad but it was pretty boring compared to even ODST (which I really liked but a lot of people shit on it). Maybe it's just a generation that grew up playing it that's now engaging in the community and waxing poetic about it? IDK I remember a lot of people not liking Reach when it came out.

I mean, we all know that ODST is essentially a superior Reach. Both are about a team of six elite soldiers trying to survive an alien invasion, which ultimately ends up with said team delving underground in order to extract some information that is critical to humanity. I believe its been mentioned that since both games were in development at the same time, there were a lot of cross-pollination when it came to ideas.

Difference though is that ODST, perhaps because it had to be more humble than a mainline entry, benefited greatly from its smaller, but more focused scope. As a result, it's probably my favorite story of any of the games.

But Reach, I feel like, is more preoccupied with striking imagery and situations, even if there is hardly any narrative throughline. For example, it would be the easiest thing in the world to make Winter Contingency flow neatly into Sword Base. All you would have to do is move the briefing with Dr Halsey from the END of the level to the beginning.

We come after the aftermath of a peculiar event at the end of Winter Contingency, and move to the characters discussing said event at the start of Sword Base. That's how you make things flow. But the thing is, Reach is far too liberal with its use of time-skips, and as a result, the first half of the story jumps all over the place with no logic. It's not until Six has been chucked out of a space ship that levels and their placement start making sense to some degree.

I also still hold that, since Reach wants us to remain purely in the shoes of Noble Six, that Noble Team should have been shortened to only 4 members. Really, only 3 since the player is more or less just a window that allows the audience to witness the team.

Combine Jorge and Carter into the same character. That way the charismatic, compassionate giant is also the stalwart leader.

Keep Kat more or less the same, but actually allude to her and NewCarter's previous relationship. You have datapads. Use them to flesh out the characters that exist. Not introduce a side story that has does nothing to inform us of THIS story, or its characters.

Instead of Noble Six being stated to be as awesome as the Chief, and totally having a nine inch pecker, what if the reason why Six was forced to join a team after being a lone operator for years was because they had messed up in the past in some way? How exactly would ideally be left up to the player's imagination.

Have Emile be the same as well, but have his beef be primarily with the PLAYER character. He's supposed to be a bit crazy after all. Let us experience that intensity first hand. Let us watch his mental state deteriorate when the Leader, assumingly the only one who's been reigning him in, bites the dust halfway through. 

Remember that scene where we saw a first-person perspective of Six trying to avoid being stabbed by that Elite. Imagine something like that, but its Emile trying to choke the life out of you. Because the minute you showed up, all his friends died. But then, have him ultimately redeem himself when he chooses to stay on the gun, and protect the player.

Oh, and just remove Jun outright. No one cares about Jun.

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5 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

The functionality of the battle rifle? Yes.

The Art/sound/visuals/gameplay/sprintyboi/campaign/music? No.

Reminder that the Halo 4 BR was a 5sk when the game launched.

 

As bad and as frustrating as the Halo 3 BR is, by fucking god the 5sk BR was a god damn nightmare. 

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13 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

The functionality of the battle rifle? Yes.

The Art/sound/visuals/gameplay/sprintyboi/campaign/music? No.

What, this doesn't scream Halo to you?

 

 

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Projectile feels wack in Halo 3 because its not intuitive. You wouldn't expect to have to lead your shots in real life to the extent you have to with the BR in Halo 3. The Sniper Rifle has a bullet velocity of 1530 m/s, but you still have to lead your shots? There's not a map big enough in Halo 3 that any lead makes sense. 

The Battle Rifle isn't sub-sonic either, so its rounds are travelling faster than 343 m/s, so we'll ballpark 700-800 m/s, still fast enough that travel time is negligible considering the size of the maps in Halo 3.

The amount of lead you have to put on an enemy in during a 4v4 match on the maps is much more than one would intuitively expect. 

 

The Demoman example someone posted earlier is a good example of this, people are so accurate with the GL despite being projectile because it's what you'd expect, its intuitive. It makes sense that you have to put a significant amount of lead on someone, its a slow moving projectile and this makes sense and is super obvious. The H3 BR doesn't do this. It doesn't feel right to have to lead your shots, the range fights occur at mean that projectile travel time SHOULD be negligible. 

 

Sandtrap is the only map with long enough sight lines that make leading your shots make sense. For 4v4 gameplay, Hitscan is the way to go, because the range fights happen at in Halo 3 are too short and everyone moves so slow that leading anything makes 0 sense. In 8v8, Hitscan is still a better choice because maps are still not big enough to make it feel right. 

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