Jump to content
CyReN

Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Would make the BR inconsistent as cocks.

How? The H2 BR has essentially zero spread as long as you lead properly you should be able to pull off 4sk’s consistently it’s not like the H3 BR not to mention H2 has some pretty insane amounts of magnetism.

  • Like (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, thdyingbreed said:

Elaborate on how projectiles in Halo 2 would make the game worse from my view it would only make the game better and add onto the existing skill gap.

Halo 2 is a game that is entirely more frantic compared to Halo 1. Although the kill time is reduced (it takes about 25% longer to kill from H1), the characters move at a faster pace, they can toggle peek, and so forth. Adding in the projectile would greatly slow down gameplay even further, to a point of near-shutdown.

This is all entirely based off my experience with both games. I haven't played Halo 2 since the original Xbox Live servers shut down, and I have zero interest in playing it in MCC as streams have shown me that the game is in a messy state (buggy, shot registration is worse than when it was current, etc.).

People here can all argue until they're blue in the face or their hands fall of from carpal tunnel, though, and it won't matter. Simply put, the games are in the state they are in and will remain that way. 343 will release MCC PC this year and determine if hitscan/projectile will be the way to go in each game (likely will be entirely hitscan, I believe, but we'll see), and we'll all have to suffer/relish in it.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
45 minutes ago, thdyingbreed said:

Elaborate on how projectiles in Halo 2 would make the game worse from my view it would only make the game better and add onto the existing skill gap.

h2 br is projectile so there's that. or maybe i should have not said this and watched y'all debate why halo2 is better because its hitscan.

 

projectile speeds btw: 

h3 br: 180

ce pistol: 300

h2 br: 400

 

do units compare... Well, all spartans walk the same speed in all halos relative to units so maybe. and you have to lead on halo2, and making the speed go to 1200 for halo2 makes shit actually hitscan-like. 

 

  • Like (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post
58 minutes ago, SkitzoCTRL said:

Halo 2 is a game that is entirely more frantic compared to Halo 1. Although the kill time is reduced (it takes about 25% longer to kill from H1), the characters move at a faster pace, they can toggle peek, and so forth. Adding in the projectile would greatly slow down gameplay even further, to a point of near-shutdown.
 

????????

 

h2 ttk 1.43s, ce 0.6

characters literally move same speed, except ce has higher fov so you appear to move faster, ce has a better movement accel so you go side to side faster.

 

idk what toggle peek means, peek shooting? like u can do in ce or h3?

 

 

 

  • Upvote (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post

Toggle peek is where you use some sort of surface/edge to block your opponent from shooting you when you’re shooting at them. So:

burst

hide

burst

hide

 

oops, didn’t see the bottom part there. Yeah, exactly that. Also called jiggle peeking 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, cH_ said:

oooh tough guy

1v1 pistol only and delete your account after you lose

I wasn't actually challenging you, I was saying that even if I was able to beat you, it wouldn't change your stance on the topic. The fact that you didn't respond to the rest of my post tells me a lot about you.

Share this post


Link to post

I thought the problem with the Halo 3 BR was the spread, not the fact that its a projectile weapon.

Projectile weapons would be fine without spread, but otherwise Hitscan is the way to go so that we get consistent shots rather than the dice roll the Halo 3 BR can be. MLG didn't bump the damage of weapons up in the competitive settings for no reason. 

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

I thought the problem with the Halo 3 BR was the spread, not the fact that its a projectile weapon.

Projectile weapons would be fine without spread, but otherwise Hitscan is the way to go so that we get consistent shots rather than the dice roll the Halo 3 BR can be. MLG didn't bump the damage of weapons up in the competitive settings for no reason. 

It’s one of them but it’s not the main problem. One problem is the speed of the projectiles. Did you ever play ELDEWRITO before 0.6? In 5.1.1 the h3 BR was projectile and the default movement speed was 120%. The hit reg(while still having h3s spread) was really good. It’s fair to note this Brs projectiles were quicker. Now in 0.6 they made it hitscan in order to provide greater consistency. But now we have this bizarre cross map shooting. Although tbh I think accuracy being perfect within red reticule range isn’t a bad thing. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

It’s one of them but it’s not the main problem. One problem is the speed of the projectiles. Did you ever play ELDEWRITO before 0.6? In 5.1.1 the h3 BR was projectile and the default movement speed was 120%. The hit reg(while still having h3s spread) was really good. It’s fair to note this Brs projectiles were quicker. Now in 0.6 they made it hitscan in order to provide greater consistency. But now we have this bizarre cross map shooting. Although tbh I think accuracy being perfect within red reticule range isn’t a bad thing. 

Incorrect, the BR was hitscan it just had bloom.

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, HeX Reapers said:

Incorrect, the BR was hitscan it just had bloom.

Nope not correct. 0.5.1.1 was projectile. They later made it hitscan in 0.6 

Share this post


Link to post
29 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Nope not correct. 0.5.1.1 was projectile. They later made it hitscan in 0.6 

I've been following development since the release of 0.5, you're wrong. Ask any dev you fool.

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, SkitzoCTRL said:

Halo 2 is a game that is entirely more frantic compared to Halo 1. Although the kill time is reduced (it takes about 25% longer to kill from H1), the characters move at a faster pace, they can toggle peek, and so forth. Adding in the projectile would greatly slow down gameplay even further, to a point of near-shutdown.

This is all entirely based off my experience with both games. I haven't played Halo 2 since the original Xbox Live servers shut down, and I have zero interest in playing it in MCC as streams have shown me that the game is in a messy state (buggy, shot registration is worse than when it was current, etc.).

People here can all argue until they're blue in the face or their hands fall of from carpal tunnel, though, and it won't matter. Simply put, the games are in the state they are in and will remain that way. 343 will release MCC PC this year and determine if hitscan/projectile will be the way to go in each game (likely will be entirely hitscan, I believe, but we'll see), and we'll all have to suffer/relish in it.

I have no idea why you think MCC on PC will be all hitscan. There's been zero indication that this will be the case and it would require extra work from them. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Honestly, the way this conversation has gone is exactly the reason I don't bother posting here. If you say anything contrary to the entrenched "Halo veteran" position, 50% of the response are just repetitions of the same old assumptions. The rest of the responses are "lol guys I cannot BELIEVE someone would think this amirite upvote me fellow correct opinion havers" and the usual "I am above such PETTY squabbles, but feel the need to let everyone know about it" posturing (you know who you are).

And still the fundamental presupposition that I pointed out at at the beginning of my post was ignored, just like every other specific point I made. So, I'm going to make this easy for you. I'm going to be simple and EXPLICIT, so you can't just fall back on the same old mantras and ignore what is actually being written.

Let's start with fundamental axiom:

Quote

Any and all projectile properties, no matter how insignificant or functionally undetectable INHERENTLY introduce a greater element of skill to a weapon.

This has been repeated in various forms or inferred from other related statements repeatedly in nearly every "pro projectile" post and yet, in this entire conversation, not ONE person has actually justified it in any way. I asked for a justification and didn't get it, so let's add a bit more structure.

Take two variations on the H3 sniper rifle being used on a standard sized competitive map. One is hit-scan and the other is projectile. All other factors are completely identical. Precision is the same. Netcode and connection quality is the same. Awful H3 console aiming is the same. The players are the same.

Does the projectile version inherently take more skill (I know most of you think this)? If so (and here's the IMPORTANT PART), why?

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Why did you all change your avatar to the same image?

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

I wasn't actually challenging you, I was saying that even if I was able to beat you, it wouldn't change your stance on the topic. The fact that you didn't respond to the rest of my post tells me a lot about you.

i didnt respond to your post because it was made up bullshit and assumptions. the “explanations” were nothing but analogies to rockets, nades and snipe weapons so niche and irrelevant to the broader decision of basing a game on hitscan or projectile. Saying that me going “ur bad” is doing the heavy lifting is just more dementia seeping out of your brain. 

You trying to sound cool as fuck in your opening was way more entertaining and im laughing at the thought of bending you over in the most “raw gunskill” halo that i hardly ever play. Idc if you werent serious it was stupid to say and trys to plant logic that i wasnt using. 

youre constant appeal to authority, who is no authority at all is a little bit sad and tELLs mE aLoT aBoUt YoU

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, cH_ said:

i didnt respond to your post because it was made up bullshit and assumptions. the “explanations” were nothing but analogies to rockets, nades and snipe weapons so niche and irrelevant to the broader decision of basing a game on hitscan or projectile. Saying that me going “ur bad” is doing the heavy lifting is just more dementia seeping out of your brain. 

You trying to sound cool as fuck in your opening was way more entertaining and im laughing at the thought of bending you over in the most “raw gunskill” halo that i hardly ever play. Idc if you werent serious it was stupid to say and trys to plant logic that i wasnt using. 

youre constant appeal to authority, who is no authority at all is a little bit sad and tELLs mE aLoT aBoUt YoU

Bulletpoints please.

  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, arglactable said:

why?

Leading shots takes more skill the further away your target is from you. This is evident in games and in real life applications of firearms, where just putting a target in the center of your reticule in most cases is not sufficent to score hits. It takes more skill because distance and target movement are factors that don't play as strong of a role in a hitscan environment (distance requires negligible consideration). So, that's why.

  • Upvote (+1) 4
  • Fire (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, cH_ said:

i didnt respond to your post because it was made up bullshit and assumptions. the “explanations” were nothing but analogies to rockets, nades and snipe weapons so niche and irrelevant to the broader decision of basing a game on hitscan or projectile. Saying that me going “ur bad” is doing the heavy lifting is just more dementia seeping out of your brain. 

You trying to sound cool as fuck in your opening was way more entertaining and im laughing at the thought of bending you over in the most “raw gunskill” halo that i hardly ever play. Idc if you werent serious it was stupid to say and trys to plant logic that i wasnt using. 

youre constant appeal to authority, who is no authority at all is a little bit sad and tELLs mE aLoT aBoUt YoU

I wasn't trying to sound cool, I was making a point which up until now you still haven't addressed.

Share this post


Link to post

Do you know how hard it is to cut someone’s head off?  I’ve practiced and using the shield is easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, RVG E Nomini said:

Leading shots takes more skill the further away your target is from you. This is evident in games and in real life applications of firearms, where just putting a target in the center of your reticule in most cases is not sufficent to score hits. It takes more skill because distance and target movement are factors that don't play as strong of a role in a hitscan environment (distance requires negligible consideration). So, that's why.

That has nothing to do with the question I asked. You are essentially rephrasing the assumption I wanted explained and you're ignoring the specific context I provided. I know you think projectile inherently takes more skill. EXPLAIN IT.

This is why I quickly lose patience with these conversations, but whatever. I'll respond anyway. The idea that the aim skill for projectile lead somehow scales infinitely with distance is silly. More realistically, it can be divided into two real situations. Distances where leading is necessary and distances where it is not.

At distances where leading is relevant, you are effectively guessing the distance to determine lead and then correcting when you miss. There is a unquestionable element of luck to this, as much as people want to pretend that you can consistently judge long distances in videogames, you usually can't, unless a specific mechanic exists to help you calibrate. Longer distances involve more GUESS WORK. Not more "skill." Again, unless you actually know what the distance is, which you don't.

At distances where noticeable leading is NOT necessary, projectiles introduce a largely uncontrolled factor that might as well be random. And before someone points out that it's not literally random, I know.

This is the range I am currently referring to. I asked, SPECIFICALLY, in a scenario in which lead time is so tiny that no one actually accounts for it (H3 sniper on arena maps), is projectile more skillful? And, again, WHY?

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, arglactable said:

Does the projectile version inherently take more skill (I know most of you think this)? If so (and here's the IMPORTANT PART), why?

Hitscan: The Sniper will hit where you aim instantly. Factors involved are the aim assist you were given to move your reticle, the bullet magnetism, and the player you were targeting. Note that this gives a very good level of consistency, as you are only required to either hit two body shots, or a single head shot. Aim assist and bullet magnetism can be mitigated where it takes a reasonable amount of effort to use the sniper.

Projectile: The Sniper bullet has a fast velocity, and will take time to hit the target. Factors involved are the aim assist, bullet magnetism, the speed of the bullet, the player being targeted, the distance of the player being targeted, and the player's movement. While at most ranges the sniper bullet is pretty much going to hit the player regardless of what they do, it's when you are aiming farther away where the extra factors come in. You would need to gain the ability to subconsciously calculate where to fire your bullet adjacent to where the player is going, but even then, the player is human and at any point can change direction.

I believe that the player being able to move at any point is where the concern of randomness or luck is placed for projectile. There is an uncontrollable part that becomes known at farther distances, that is completely gone in hitscan. So, whether or not you can accept that this will happen, it is something that can't be accounted for. Which means that yes, hitscan can be very consistent when random spread or bloom are not a part of the equation, but even if they are, they make things worse for projectile.

Thank you for reading.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
51 minutes ago, arglactable said:


At distances where leading is relevant, you are effectively guessing the distance to determine lead and then correcting when you miss. There is a unquestionable element of luck to this, as much as people want to pretend that you can consistently judge long distances in videogames, you usually can't, unless a specific mechanic exists to help you calibrate. Longer distances involve more GUESS WORK. Not more "skill." Again, unless you actually know what the distance is, which you don't.

It's also called experience. Am I "guessing" when I throw a grenade across map on HeH? Initially yes. But eventually the "guesswork" of throwing the grenade becomes a lot more skillful and it's no longer "luck" if I land the grenade. And here we're talking about a grenade, nowhere near the speed of a bullet plus the detonation time. 

So if I'm shooting across HeH and I'm clearly not hitting my shots, then I may need to "guess" where to lead and how far to lead depending on the situation. But over-time, if I'm actually paying attention to what I'm doing and not just putting it up to luck, that is no longer "guesswork" and it just becomes normal for me to know when to lead. That's where the skill comes into play.

  • Like (+1) 4
  • Upvote (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, arglactable said:

Honestly, the way this conversation has gone is exactly the reason I don't bother posting here.

 

2 hours ago, arglactable said:

 "I am above such PETTY squabbles, but feel the need to let everyone know about it" posturing (you know who you are).

 

Lul.

  • Simms (+1) 1
  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/9/2019 at 11:57 AM, ChieftaiNZ said:

civilwar.jpg

 

2/10 - Critics are calling it the dumbest movie ever made

0/10 - The BEAST/ICE romance is super out of place in this gritty movie

3/10 - Holy fuck what are these people doing

10/10 - Hardway is dummy thicc. 

Side note and no one really cares but just wanted to clarify: While this is funny as fuck I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be on team projectile lol. Just a few weeks ago I made a post against projectile for Halo Infinite because we all know the chances that 343 nails netcode like Blizzard are slim at best and all we'd get is another MCC CE or H3 or Battlefield 3 experience where you're spamming entire clips at people in hopes of hitting something.

All I did in this "debate" was point out the flawed argument that movement is random and therefore projectile = bad. I still think projectile is either a) meaningless because it's only 1-3 frames travel time when crossmapping BTB maps or b) bullets would have to be so slow that things become comical.

Plus we're still dealing with an online game where people think it's okay to queue with pings of 200+ and tons of packet loss. Plus the so called dedicated servers in MCC and H5 are dogshit at best so I'd rather we get a game like Reach that has a robust af netcode that even works on the shittiest of connections than attempting to force projectile into H:I.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.