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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 minute ago, LI Mr X IL said:

Not saying you said otherwise. What you said was that snipedown wasn’t making these calculations consciously while playing and implying that it was therefore somehow more random or luck based. I was pointing out that this isn’t the case. He IS making those calculations just not consciously. In fact that’s probably what separates people like him from average players. If you have to consciously remind yourself to account for travel time and bullet drop with every pull of the trigger you’ve already lost the fight to someone who is just putting the reticle where it needs to be without thought and pulling the trigger.

What I'm saying is that tiny factors with huge potential variance and minimal feedback are not something that you can account for anywhere near as consistently as less granular, more transparent properties. It's the same basic distinction between analogue and WASD movement. WASD is more consistent because you know EXACTLY what will happen when you press any combination of those four direction buttons. Analogue movement is more granular, but you never actually know how far the stick is deflected.

I have no doubt that someone who plays the game a lot will develop a better feel for projectile lead, but I am not at all convinced that the "skill" factor outweighs the inconsistency of hoping that you estimated the the distance and resulting trajectory from travel time, gravity, and "sway" (lol). I'm also not convinced that a significant percentage of good players actually rely on leading ability to a significant degree.

The more specific problem with the lead in games like Halo 3 is that it's not actually significant at all and the fact of the matter is that most good players are... putting their reticles on the target and not actually leading one pixel to the right. So what it really accomplishes is allowing for a lot of missed shots that LOOKED like they were on target (because the reticle was), while they were technically misses because the enemy's face move just barely out of the way before the projectile got there. That does not promote skill to any meaningful degree. It might as well be random spread in most cases.

To be clear, my primary issue is with the idea that projectiles are inherently better for hit-scan style precision weapons, as opposed to weapons like the plasma gun and rocket launcher in Quake, which is why a basketball comparison doesn't work. A basketball is a comparatively large, slow moving object. The target is stationary. The ranges you're expected to throw it are fairly short. You can easily see exactly where it went and in what sort of arc when you throw it.

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2 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

I'm mocking your massive ego you weirdo. You literally went on a tirade calling yourself GODS GIFT TO GAMING. That's all the context I need. I don't give a fuck what you believe. No one is bitter. That's your ego speaking again. Nothing I said had anything to do with your faith. It's everything to do with you. 

And if we REALLY WANNA get all preachy what you are doing is the literal opposite of what a Christian should be doing. Bragging about shit and pretending to be humble. Not very godly homie. 

Well, I'm pretty introspective and if I thought I was being rude or boasting I'd probably feel at the least a little convicted right now but I know my own intentions. The only reason I come here is for semi intellectual conversation about game design (that is pretty hard to find on forums) but as the last few pages show, I don't think you're capable of that. Which is a shame because i used to enjoy coming here and a lot of my own foundation is rooted in things I learned from talking to people here. Hell my first posts were literally arguing with Lemon about why CE sucks and why Halo 3 is the best.

At the end of the day, I know what I know. If you want to interpret that as an ego and boasting - that's on you. I know my intentions.

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1 minute ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Then you're casual. And can most likely enjoy a great life where anything pleases you.

U Callin me stupit?

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1 minute ago, MultiLockOn said:

Well, I'm pretty introspective and if I thought I was being rude or boasting I'd probably feel at the least a little convicted right now but I know my own intentions. The only reason I come here is for semi intellectual conversation about game design (that is pretty hard to find on forums) but as the last few pages show, I don't think you're capable of that. Which is a shame because i used to enjoy coming here and a lot of my own foundation is rooted in things I learned from talking to people here. Hell my first posts were literally arguing with Lemon about why CE sucks and why Halo 3 is the best.

At the end of the day, I know what I know. If you want to interpret that as an ego and boasting - that's on you. I know my intentions.

Cool story man 

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1 hour ago, Xandrith said:

it's like this diamond 3 peon thinks he's good or something

imagine being a "champ" and thinking you wont get farmed by a bunch of unranked randoms for fun

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5 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

No, I'm calling you lucky.

I mean, I dislike plenty of stuff. In fact, nobody dislikes more things than I do. I dislike the most things.

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2 minutes ago, cH_ said:

imagine being a "champ" and thinking you wont get farmed by a bunch of unranked randoms for fun

I don't understand what you mean, but I was completely kidding. I don't actually care how about how good I am compared to anyone else here. Honestly beast is probably better at halo 5 than me. It's easy to spot the sweaties

 

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59 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

What if I don't necessarily care which type of bullet physics are in the game?

it means you have no stake in the argument, and i mean that in the most literal, polite way possible

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6 minutes ago, cH_ said:

it means you have no stake in the argument, and i mean that in the most literal, polite way possible

I mean, I'm so offended right now it's not even funny.

 

In all seriousness though, that's basically what I'm admitting. The inconsistency of projectile is not enough for me to dislike it yet the lack of leading doesn't make me hate hitscan either. What tends to bother me about them are the secondary mechanics but this debate is larger than that. It's why I'm not really participating.

 

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Projectiles by their nature limit effective range.  If you don’t want random spread or bullets that disappear after a certain distance then projectile is the best way to get a weapon that fires straight but is not godly at long range.

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I was expecting more debates, got drama. Not disappointed. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Xandrith said:

I can somehow hear the piercing nasality of your diamond 3 peon voice through this reply

giphy.gif

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25 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Projectiles by their nature limit effective range.  If you don’t want random spread or bullets that disappear after a certain distance then projectile is the best way to get a weapon that fires straight but is not godly at long range.

Why not just remove the ability to scope in with any weapon (besides the sniper) after already limiting RRR while retaining hit-scan?

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4 minutes ago, TryHardFan said:

Why not just remove the ability to scope in with any weapon (besides the sniper) after already limiting RRR while retaining hit-scan?

Rrr limits only affect console, basically irrelevant to a good mouse player so that's actually sort of an anti solution.

 

That being said you're tapping into the deeper issue being weapon zoom, and why does it exist in the first place if it's literally there to give you extra aim assist for pressing a button. Somewhat of a useless mechanic.

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41 minutes ago, arglactable said:

What I'm saying is that tiny factors with huge potential variance and minimal feedback are not something that you can account for anywhere near as consistently as less granular, more transparent properties. It's the same basic distinction between analogue and WASD movement. WASD is more consistent because you know EXACTLY what will happen when you press any combination of those four direction buttons. Analogue movement is more granular, but you never actually know how far the stick is deflected.

I have no doubt that someone who plays the game a lot will develop a better feel for projectile lead, but I am not at all convinced that the "skill" factor outweighs the inconsistency of hoping that you estimated the the distance and resulting trajectory from travel time, gravity, and "sway" (lol). I'm also not convinced that a significant percentage of good players actually rely on leading ability to a significant degree.

The more specific problem with the lead in games like Halo 3 is that it's not actually significant at all and the fact of the matter is that most good players are... putting their reticles on the target and not actually leading one pixel to the right. So what it really accomplishes is allowing for a lot of missed shots that LOOKED like they were on target (because the reticle was), while they were technically misses because the enemy's face move just barely out of the way before the projectile got there. That does not promote skill to any meaningful degree. It might as well be random spread in most cases.

To be clear, my primary issue is with the idea that projectiles are inherently better for hit-scan style precision weapons, as opposed to weapons like the plasma gun and rocket launcher in Quake, which is why a basketball comparison doesn't work. A basketball is a comparatively large, slow moving object. The target is stationary. The ranges you're expected to throw it are fairly short. You can easily see exactly where it went and in what sort of arc when you throw it.

I think so long as you accept that prediction is a skill (i.e. something that can be improved on) then the curve for projectile vs hitscan is infinitely larger. So when talking about the theoretical benefits, projectile stands out because there is a quality that scales to the point that it is seemingly unmasterable.

Consistency is really the only leg that hitscan stands on, there's nothing particularly interesting in anything you do with a straight performing hitscan rifle, especially balance wise, which is why developers use it as a starting point and then move away using other mechanics e.g. bloom, spread, spray patterns etc.

Go and watch shroud play a game of Apex/PUBG. Especially in Apex, he is leading instinctively to maximise his damage output to a level that is just crazy.

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12 minutes ago, TryHardFan said:

Why not just remove the ability to scope in with any weapon (besides the sniper) after already limiting RRR while retaining hit-scan?

First, I think scoped battles, with the classic descope mechanic, are interesting so I wouldn’t want to remove the scope from the utility weapon.  Second, players who could aim outside of red reticle would be unaffected by those attempts to limit the range of  a hitscan weapon.

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9 minutes ago, Boyo said:

First, I think scoped battles, with the classic discope mechanic, are interesting so I wouldn’t want to remove the scope from the utility weapon.  Second, any player who could aim outside of red reticle would be unaffected by those attempts to limit the range of  a hitscan weapon.

What makes scoped battles with descope interesting? All you’re doing is encouraging the 1st shot advantage, since players who are descoped have a harder time remaining on target than players who are scoped because of the increased aim assist.

The context of this is Halo as a console shooter. Few people on console are going to stay on target at longer distances where not only is there no aim assist, but the target remains smaller and thus forces even greater adjustments to retain accuracy. For those few people who have that skill, why do you want to stifle their abilities with projectiles?

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Arguing about this subject from a console perspective means very little to me since halos future on PC is all but confirmed at this point.

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im surprised no one has mentioned battlefield where its 100% projectile and often at long range just as much as close. there is nothing particularly difficult about projectile, and if we keep using the brain-dead example of a target moving in only one lateral direction with the shooter having to aim in front we can get an equally brain-dead assumption that more calculations = more skill.

You shoot in front of the guy. thats it. if he changes direction you start shooting in front again. if he changes direction a whole bunch of times, you just spam on either side and hope he walks into bullets that youre sending. This is where hitscan and projectile diverge in terms of mechanical ability and randomness. If the player you are targeting is moving randomly, the projectiles youre sending downrange are fucking random too. there is no trace aiming involved, you effectively can only send a cone of fire that he may or may not walk into versus you putting your "AiMeR" on target and actually making conscious shots. A great player can effectively trace aim the fuck out of you with hitscan, and his skill is more evident as the distance increases. the skillful player cannot manage random movement with projectile because in addition to other physics the rounds are delayed, its that simple. even better, you are practically guaranteed hits just by holding a static point and firing with an auto and having the guy run through your line.

all projectile does is ruin strafe vs strafe gunfights and add randomness for the sake of freedom of movement in open maps.

of course this best applies to FPS on PC and not on lmao console where games need literal soft aim hack for boomers to not rage and get up from the couch. 

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imagine playing a "competitive fps" at 30 frames, with no dedicated servers on a controller at 50 fov for like 17 years.

its so fucking pathetic im willing to bet the majority of you who buy mcc for PC will plug your controllers in for that crispy AAPD support and play with tube fov just the same

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43 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Rrr limits only affect console, basically irrelevant to a good mouse player so that's actually sort of an anti solution.

 

That being said you're tapping into the deeper issue being weapon zoom, and why does it exist in the first place if it's literally there to give you extra aim assist for pressing a button. Somewhat of a useless mechanic.

You often trade awareness or mobility for the added zoom/assistance depending on the game. Its less relevant for a PC shooter though but can be balanced as a mechanic for something like the AWP that can't really be fired from the hip accurately and the zoom affected movement speed as a trade off for the power of the weapon. There's also the zoom battle you'll have between two console players when its balanced appropriately in Halo. I wouldn't say its useless as there is depth there as long as you don't go full Halo 4. The only thing that happens that I personally dislike is when its a game like CoD and its no longer a choice with depth and instead just a button you, in most cases, have to press if you wish to accurately fire your weapon.

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8 minutes ago, TryHardFan said:

What makes scoped battles with descope interesting? All you’re doing is encouraging the 1st shot advantage, since players who are descoped have a harder time remaining on target than players who are scoped because of the increased aim assist.

Without descope, gun battles would be static and monotonous.  Just two players firing as fast as they can at each other.  With descope, both players could be scoped in, both players could be unscoped, just one player could be scoped in; every battle does not begin and end the same way.  In addition, there are skills involved in recovering from being descoped and going on to descope your target.  Gun fights are more dynamic with descope and I believe this tests a wider, deeper set of skills than a scopeless utility weapon could provide.

8 minutes ago, TryHardFan said:

The context of this is Halo as a console shooter. Few people on console are going to stay on target at longer distances where not only is there no aim assist, but the target remains smaller and thus forces even greater adjustments to retain accuracy. For those few people who have that skill, why do you want to stifle their abilities with projectiles?

Aiming at long range should be more than pure physical skill.  The mental element, the ability to predict and compensate for target movement is a deep skill set that widens the overall aiming skill gap.

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19 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

You often trade awareness or mobility for the added zoom/assistance. Its less relevant for a PC shooter though but can be balanced as a mechanic. There's also the zoom battle you'll have between two console players when its balanced appropriately in Halo

Scoping should never hinder mobility in Halo.  Similarly, nothing should affect a player’s ability to aim either.  Moving and aiming are the twin pillars that hold up all gameplay; the player should always be in full control of them.

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