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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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3 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Yeah you’re only moving left or right in that game. You’re not doing all the crazy strafes crouch, Gandhi hopping etc. that wouldn’t work. It’s also not in quake.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here so you'll have to clarify for me. But if you're implying that bullet sway effectively kills the ability to do advanced movement tech because it diminishes your ability to shoot.. It makes it MORE difficult but that's the point of good game design. Infinitely high skill ceiling, low skill floor. You're just separating the average and perfect kill times even more which is what you want. The perfect kill to still be possible and fast, and then have the average kill time you be much longer.

 

6 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

Didn't we determine that it was a good thing when we debated on what makes spread ass? Part of the problem was the inability to fight at range.

The inability to fight at range inherently is not an issue. The reason WHY you cannot fight is where the issue lies. The spiker in H3 in reach has basically infinite range, but good luck hitting anything thanks to the projectile speed (good balancing) and random spread (bad balancing)

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4 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

My statement wasn't a loaded one, it's a discussion worth having. Let's be reminded, though, of the fact that one of the absolute worst things about later Halos is how much fighting is done at range, creating no man's lands and stagnating gameplay. This is a problem for map design over shooting mechanics of course, but one ought to ask - would CE be better if it had zero spread but no zoom on the pistol (and possibly a slightly adjusted RRR)? 

Map design is part of it but the low kill times were another. No one wanted to risk getting caught alone since it's basically mean certain death.

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10 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

Map design is part of it but the low kill times were another. No one wanted to risk getting caught alone since it's basically mean certain death.

I think it's the opposite - you can't do jack shit by yourself in later Halos by yourself, so teamshot was crucial. 

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1 minute ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I think it's the opposite - you can't do jack shit by yourself in later Halos by yourself, so teamshot was crucial. 

That's exactly what I'm saying. By low I mean slow. Bad wording on my part.

 

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8 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

If you blame H5 aiming for you losing gunfights I got news for you lolllllllllllllllll

 

Dude h5 has the most inconsistent aiming mechanics of any shooter. It’s alsp not smooth at all. Although I’m on the original Xbox one and I noticed it felt smoother on my buddy’s S so maybe I’m just on crap hardware.

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Just now, Fixaimingsorry said:

Dude h5 has the most inconsistent aiming mechanics of any shooter. It’s alsp not smooth at all. Although I’m on the original Xbox one and I noticed it felt smoother on my buddy’s S so maybe I’m just on crap hardware.

Placebo, can confirm it's still aids on the X.

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39 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I didn't say it was random, I said it was inconsistent. It's obviously not RNG and can be mitigated to an extent, but it will never be as consistent as hitscan can be. And I want consistency. 

Second, my example on someone moving out of my bullet's trajectory wasn't in regards to combat. Someone simply moving naturally can literally make me whiff a shot even if they don't see me or weren't reacting to me, especially given I'm already aiming well off target. That isn't a matter of you being better than me. It's a matter of me guessing where to fire, firing, and you moving out of the bullet's trajectory by pure circumstance. That isn't a good thing. Fortnite snipers are horrible to use for that reason. Because it introduces inconsistency at range. Not that I'm a terrible shot, I'm not, but when you begin to put your bullet's probability of impacting into the hands of someone else's movement over your inherent, raw aim, there's going to be more inconsistency outside of simple combat that takes the fight out of your hands. This doesn't go over how if you just had a good strafe and a hard enough weapon, a hitscan weapon could be dodged or juked. Hell, Halo 5 showed you could have an easy pistol and people will still whiff and chug a cactus at shooting their gun, lol. Not really against that, nor did I say strafing or the ability to is a bad thing.

Third, no, I want to aim at people through hitscan because I want my weapon to be consistent. Where I aim, I should hit. Being rewarded for aiming off target isn't what I wanna base my game around. Basically a reiteration of my last points. Give me consistency or give me death.

Refer to above.

Fair post. Seems like you're specifying fortnites sniper which I'll address by saying the projectile speed on that is teetering the line between reactable and not reactable. You can't really dodge the incoming projectiles how you would a rocket but you're well enough just jumping and accepting that they'll miss. That being said, that's what makes the snipers work in that game. If they were any easier (not stronger, easier) to use I'm willing to bet you'd dislike them quite a bit more with as large as the map is in fortnite and how punishing 1 life game modes are. It needs to be as skill based as it is now for it to exist in the sandbox. There's a difference between making something weaker and making it easier to use, and that sniper in fortnite in the right hands is dangerous considering it can 1 shot a full health and shield stack. I think it's right where it needs to be. 

 

Especially because sniping WITHIN an area like tilted towers is getting into Halo 3 projectile speed where it's not reactable but you do have to put it an inch or so in front if they're running. 

 

Sorry if my last post came off rude

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I know how bad h5 aiming is. We all dealt with the same thing. So if you're consistently getting outshot there's a pretty clear underlying reason. 

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17 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. By low I mean slow. Bad wording on my part.

 

Oh, well then yes, that. :wutface:

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7 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

I know how bad h5 aiming is. We all dealt with the same thing. So if you're consistently getting outshot there's a pretty clear underlying reason. 

STFU the average player is eastern so I’m at a 24/7 disadvantage. 90-100 ping is unplayable AF.

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Just now, Fixaimingsorry said:

STFU the average player is eastern so I’m at a 24/7 disadvantage. 90-100 ping is unplayable AF.

Dude there are still a ton of western players lmao stop. I play with people on the other side of the US. I know how annoying high ping is but it's not 100% of your games. 

That's not even the point of my post. It was people saying that the aim system was THE reason they lose gunfights. Not, I don't know, the fact that they aren't as good as their opponents? No it MUST be the aiming. That everyone is dealing with. It's gotta be that. 

The amount of times I've played with people that SWEAR that they would beat people if they JUST had better aiming is hilarious. It's an excuse. I know the aiming sucks. And it causes a few deaths sure. But it's not why that dude is destroying you. 

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4 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

STFU the average player is eastern so I’m at a 24/7 disadvantage. 90-100 ping is unplayable AF.

sounds like bad internet to me

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7 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Dude there are still a ton of western players lmao stop. I play with people on the other side of the US. I know how annoying high ping is but it's not 100% of your games. 

That's not even the point of my post. It was people saying that the aim system was THE reason they lose gunfights. Not, I don't know, the fact that they aren't as good as their opponents? No it MUST be the aiming. That everyone is dealing with. It's gotta be that. 

The amount of times I've played with people that SWEAR that they would beat people if they JUST had better aiming is hilarious. It's an excuse. I know the aiming sucks. And it causes a few deaths sure. But it's not why that dude is destroying you. 

No one has mentioned player skill or Halo 5s aiming as the sole reason for anything. You asked why people miss so much in Halo 5 (which statistically, they don't. Average kill times are pretty close to perfect). The response was Halo 5 has bad aim mechanics, and the solution to hitscan weapons is to drop AA to an unreasonably low level for thumb sticks. Which is an everyone problem.

 

It's pretty clear you're not going to address anything actually said and just throw out straw men. 

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9 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Dude there are still a ton of western players lmao stop. I play with people on the other side of the US. I know how annoying high ping is but it's not 100% of your games. 

That's not even the point of my post. It was people saying that the aim system was THE reason they lose gunfights. Not, I don't know, the fact that they aren't as good as their opponents? No it MUST be the aiming. That everyone is dealing with. It's gotta be that. 

The amount of times I've played with people that SWEAR that they would beat people if they JUST had better aiming is hilarious. It's an excuse. I know the aiming sucks. And it causes a few deaths sure. But it's not why that dude is destroying you. 

Nobody said that the aiming was THE reason for lost gunfights. Actually, come to think of it, nobody even brought up losing gunfights. I said was that people miss a lot in games with bad aiming, and developers up the auto-aim/magnetism to compensate. You're arguing with nobody.

 

And you probably suck at Halo

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3 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Everything you just said is nonsense.

There is nothing random about any of it. There is nothing sloppy. The level of precision I need to hit the point to be shot at doesn't change.  It is always a fixed point. While this picture I mocked up is exaggerated it demonstrates that. In the final example because my sway would already veer my bullets left, I don't need to compensate the projectile. If I was strafing to the right in that picture, the red target would've moved twice as far to the left as it was in the second picture. But, it is still a precise point to be aimed at.  If they stop moving and your bullet misses 1: it is impossible to react to fast moving projectiles like Halo CE/3, so even with hitscan you would've missed. That's essentially just a strafe. And 2: How could that possibly be considered a bad thing? Being able to react is extremely important, it's literally the bane of what makes arena shooters work. If I AM that much better than you, I should be able to dodge your fire. I can't fathom how this is possibly a negative. Everything you just said is elementary level emotional thinking that has no basis on what is actually happening in the game. It's just "I want to aim AT them because it FEELS weird to aim ahead of them."
 

Oh boy. Let's unpack some of this. I'm not even going to bother addressing the pointlessness of discussing "gun skill" in the context of console shooters that are inherently reliant in significant assist mechanics to be playable.

First and foremost, your entire position is built on the assumption that travel time inherently introduces skill, but what you are actually describing is adding a bunch of inconsistency to gun fights. This presupposition is at the core of every single assertion you have made. Every single time you talk about projectile properties, you equate it to skill as if this were some objective fact that doesn't require any explanation. You seem to think that adding tiny, difficult to control factors somehow guarantees to good players will account for them, when there is no real evidence to suggest that is the case at all.

I am going to explain exactly why that is reductive and largely inaccurate.

Quote

That's what makes projectile the great equalizer even between mkb and controller players, and probably the sole reason snipedown is even able to compete with Apex players on PC while he uses a controller.  Because all the speed and mouse precision in the world means nothing when a mkb player doesn't know how to place their reticle in front of a player.

And a prime example in your mind was Snip3down snapping to people's backs with aim assist in an unranked super random Battle Royale hero shooter? LMAO. Pub stomping in that game has exactly nothing to do with projectiles being some secret ingredient to pure skill gameplay. Apex is not a hard game. Snipe3down's success (for what it's worth) has exactly nothing to do with PC players not being able to figure out how to aim slightly ahead of their targets like high IQ console gamers can.

So, let's talk about why this is more inconsistent than it is "skillful," particularly with CE magnum style projectiles (larger, slow projectiles are a bit different). This misconception is also at the core of why people believe CE gun fights are skillful despite the well documented fact that both spread and bullet magnetism are HUGE factors.

  1. Lead distance changes drastically based on distance to target.
  2. This is a video game, not real life. You do not have depth perception, so judging distance consistently is... not going to happen.
  3. Fast, small projectiles are difficult to track visually, and therefore actually KNOWING whether you were on target is very difficult.
  4. Without actually knowing where your projectile went reliably, you cannot consistently ADJUST in the future.

So, on top of adding travel time, you ALSO want to introduce tiny modifiers to bullet trajectory based on the player's movement vector AND modify bullet altitude based on distance? And you think that somehow good players are going to account for all of this bullshit on TOP OF hitting a small, moving target at a medium to long range? This notion that granularity is equivalent to precision and therefore inherently promotes skill is bizarrely common, but maybe I've just spent too much time talking to Halo CE purists. I assume that you have the DPI setting on your mouse set to the maximum.
 

Quote

The only difference between projectile gunplay and hitscan gunplay is that hitscan has an exact point you have to aim at, while projectile has that same exact level of precision and accuracy, but it's not exactly on the player.

No, this is not the difference. The difference is WHERE that "exact" point is can vary wildly based on a huge number of different factors and you have no guarantee that your target will continue moving in the same direction after you have fired. Meanwhile, with hit-scan, your target is exactly where you see it on the screen 100% of the time at the exact moment you pull the trigger. What you honestly think, and so seemingly do all of the people who believe Halo CE is the pinnacle of FPS gaming, is that good players are going to be performing ALL of this additional math in their heads in real time during every gun fight in the game?

"Hmm, yes. He is 15m away and moving to the left at 3 m/s meanwhile, I am moving right at 2 m/s which will sway my bullets a further 15 degrees to the right and..."

Give me a fucking break, dude. Literally the only evidence anyone has ever really provided for the limitless skill ceiling of CE gun fights is that even the best players in the world miss tons of shots. Hmmm. What does that sound like? Inconsistency. Oh no. This game that is literally unplayable without generous aim assist and giant console reticle bullet magnetism is all about GUN SKILL and sick projectile trigonometry. lmao.

What ACTUALLY happens in a gun fight at close to medium range with projectiles is that people aim in the center of the strafe and hope their opponent strafes back into the bullet. Oh, I should mention that I mean in games that don't have bullets that curve towards your target when your "aimer" is red.

With hit-scan, you can actually afford to think about their movement directly, because you have to be on target WHEN YOU PULL THE TRIGGER. You absolutely can dodge shots with hit-scan and "fast projectiles." What you are doing is throwing off their AIM. The difference between those two (hit-scan vs fast projectiles) is that ONE has, as you describe "2 to 3 frames" worth of variance, I mean, "skill." Inconsistency that you honestly believe someone like Snip3down is accounting for in his head.

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16 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Dude there are still a ton of western players lmao stop. I play with people on the other side of the US. I know how annoying high ping is but it's not 100% of your games. 

That's not even the point of my post. It was people saying that the aim system was THE reason they lose gunfights. Not, I don't know, the fact that they aren't as good as their opponents? No it MUST be the aiming. That everyone is dealing with. It's gotta be that. 

The amount of times I've played with people that SWEAR that they would beat people if they JUST had better aiming is hilarious. It's an excuse. I know the aiming sucks. And it causes a few deaths sure. But it's not why that dude is destroying you. 

And NO there’s isn’t a ton of western playing halo, barely any.

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Adorable lmao. I've already addressed the issues with projectile over hitscan like 15 times you just don't want to listen. You literally said you know better than everyone already. It's a waste arguing with God's gift to the gaming industry I can't change your mind. 

H5 with all the shit aiming and all the magnetism still had enough of a skill gap to make Gods gift goose. LMAO. 

Hey it's cool tho I bet I do suck. Maybe we can all match sometime and see the egoes all go away. I already know a good chunk of the people here have gotten mopped before so I'm really not too worried. Haha oh wait I'm pretty sure I've already been in your lobbies. I wonder how those went...

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2 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Adorable lmao. I've already addressed the issues with projectile over hitscan like 15 times you just don't want to listen. You literally said you know better than everyone already. It's a waste arguing with God's gift to the gaming industry I can't change your mind. 

H5 with all the shit aiming and all the magnetism still had enough of a skill gap to make Gods gift goose. LMAO. 

Hey it's cool tho I bet I do suck. Maybe we can all match sometime and see the egoes all go away. I already know a good chunk of the people here have gotten mopped before so I'm really not too worried. 

are you even champ lol scrub 

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2 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

are you even champ lol scrub 

LOL we literally stomped all you forge weirdos on your own maps. 

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10 minutes ago, arglactable said:

Oh boy. Let's unpack some of this. I'm not even going to bother addressing the pointlessness of discussing "gun skill" in the context of console shooters that are inherently reliant in significant assist mechanics to be playable.

First and foremost, your entire position is built on the assumption that travel time inherently introduces skill, but what you are actually describing is adding a bunch of inconsistency to gun fights. This presupposition is at the core of every single assertion you have made. Every single time you talk about projectile properties, you equate it to skill as if this were some objective fact that doesn't require any explanation. You seem to think that adding tiny, difficult to control factors somehow guarantees to good players will account for them, when there is no real evidence to suggest that is the case at all.

I am going to explain exactly why that is reductive and largely inaccurate.

And a prime example in your mind was Snip3down snapping to people's backs with aim assist in an unranked super random Battle Royale hero shooter? LMAO. Pub stomping in that game has exactly nothing to do with projectiles being some secret ingredient to pure skill gameplay. Apex is not a hard game. Snipe3down's success (for what it's worth) has exactly nothing to do with PC players not being able to figure out how to aim slightly ahead of their targets like high IQ console gamers can.

So, let's talk about why this is more inconsistent than it is "skillful," particularly with CE magnum style projectiles (larger, slow projectiles are a bit different). This misconception is also at the core of why people believe CE gun fights are skillful despite the well documented fact that both spread and bullet magnetism are HUGE factors.

  1. Lead distance changes drastically based on distance to target.
  2. This is a video game, not real life. You do not have depth perception, so gaging distance consistently is... not going to happen.
  3. Fast, small projectiles are difficult to track visually, and therefore actually KNOWING whether you were on target is very difficult.
  4. Without actually knowing where your projectile went reliable, you cannot consistently ADJUST in the future.

So, on top of adding travel time, you ALSO want to introduce tiny modifiers to bullet trajectory based on the player's movement vector AND modify bullet altitude based on distance? And you think that somehow good players are going to account for all of this bullshit on TOP OF hitting a small, moving target at a medium to long range? This notion that granularity is equivalent to precision and therefore inherently promotes skill is bizarrely common, but maybe I've just spent too much time talking to Halo CE purists. I assume that you have the DPI setting on your mouse set to the maximum.
 

No, this is not the difference. The difference is WHERE that "exact" point is can vary wildly based on a huge number of different factors and you have no guarantee that your target will continue moving in the same direction after you have fired. Meanwhile, with hit-scan, your target is exactly where you see it on the screen 100% of the time at the exact moment you pull the trigger. What you honestly think, and so seemingly do all of the people who believe Halo CE is the pinnacle of FPS gaming, is that good players are going to be performing ALL of this additional math in their heads in real time during every gun fight in the game?

"Hmm, yes. He is 15m away and moving to the left at 3 m/s meanwhile, I am moving right at 2 m/s which will sway my bullets a further 15 degrees to the right and..."

Give me a fucking break, dude. Literally the only evidence anyone has ever really provided for the limitless skill ceiling of CE gun fights is that even the best players in the world miss tons of shots. Hmmm. What does that sound like? Inconsistency. Oh no. This game that is literally unplayable without generous aim assist and giant console reticle bullet magnetism is all about GUN SKILL and sick projectile trigonometry. lmao.

What ACTUALLY happens in a gun fight at close to medium range with projectiles is that people aim in the center of the strafe and hope their opponent strafes back into the bullet. Oh, I should mention that I mean in games that don't have bullets that curve towards your target when your "aimer" is red.

With hit-scan, you can actually afford to think about their movement directly, because you have to be on target WHEN YOU PULL THE TRIGGER. You absolutely can dodge shots with hit-scan and "fast projectiles." What you are doing is throwing off their AIM. The difference between those two (hit-scan vs fast projectiles) is that ONE has, as you describe "2 to 3 frames" worth of variance, I mean, "skill." Inconsistency that you honestly believe someone like Snip3down is accounting for in his head.

Apex doesn’t have stupid ass aimmsway, it’s just pure projectile.

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2 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

LOL we literally stomped all you forge weirdos on your own maps. 

listen here mY NaMeZ BeASt xdddd

you suck at halo

next

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