Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

[Shekkles]

31 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Lmao please don't delete this LOL haha 

In all seriousness though, there is nothing wrong with being young .

[TheIcePrincess]

1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

What if we had projectile for lan only but hitscan for online?

Worst idea when most scrims are online. You'd essentially be practicing for a game you'd never play for money.

 

[Mr Grim]

1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Worst idea when most scrims are online. You'd essentially be practicing for a game you'd never play for money.

 

Oh good point I didn't think about practicing and shit like that.

[HeX Reapers]

Hitscan is fine and reliable (unless you're the H5 Magnum). What we really need to focus on is properly adjusting AA and BM. Or maybe just AA and leave BM out completely.

[My Namez BEAST]

NO, HITSCAN 2 EZ

Goes 5-30 against golds 

[Fixaimingsorry]

Gotta say the hit reg is improved but it’s not good for me since most people who play halo are eastern.

[Mr Grim]

10 hours ago, HeX Reapers said:

Hitscan is fine and reliable (unless you're the H5 Magnum). What we really need to focus on is properly adjusting AA and BM. Or maybe just AA and leave BM out completely.

For m&k thatd be fine but controllers suck for precision so you need that stuff on console.

[MultiLockOn]

9 hours ago, HeX Reapers said:

Hitscan is fine and reliable (unless you're the H5 Magnum). What we really need to focus on is properly adjusting AA and BM. Or maybe just AA and leave BM out completely.

 

1 hour ago, My Namez BEAST said:

NO, HITSCAN 2 EZ

Goes 5-30 against golds 

So, my 2 cents.

The problem with hitscan is that you're fighting an unwinnable battle of balancing - as in I'm saying it will literally never be possible to truly get it to where it needs to be on a console game. The very idea that you'll just go in and tweak and lower and lower and lower Aim Assistance until it's in this magical spot where it's just perfect is unreachable.  Because the very nature of what makes console game work is getting your aimer to move in the way that's fully predictable even with a thumbstick.  Otherwise the challenge of shooting your teammates in Halo would be considered the pinnacle of perfect skill - which in a lot of ways; it is. Right? But the line that distinguishes "clean, skillful, low AA gunplay" from "sloppy windmilling" is impossibly thin, possibly even nonexistent.  There will never be this magic number where the AA get's low enough for the game to be exactly what it needs to be, and is also the proper console experience, not reaallly. Because it could always get more skillful. So why not take that dive? I think we've seen examples of it being close but even CE under the microscope features some pretty generous bullet magnetism when you see what happens to the pistol shots at a range.

 

Projectile really is this magical balancing feature that solves basically every issue that has ever existed within any video game sandbox. Because what someone was saying several pages back that everyone laughed at but is actually spot on, is that it's 100% a mental skill that gets injected straight into every single moment of mechanical skill.

The most popular criticism of projectile I want to address is that it makes fights sloppy somehow. The only difference between projectile gunplay and hitscan gunplay is that hitscan has an exact point you have to aim at, while projectile has that same exact level of precision and accuracy, but it's not exactly on the player. You just have to read the context and compensate your aim accordingly. But the exact spot your reticle needs to land on to hit the headshot is just as small, and just as precise as it would be in hitscan. But that imaginary target is in front of the enemy and not on them. You just have to have the mental knowledge to understand how fast your projectiles move, how far the enemy is, and how fast they are moving... and in the case of CE, you have to take into account your own velocity. It's the same exact mechanical skill with added splash of mental skill, and no one should have an issue with that.

 

That's what makes projectile the great equalizer even between mkb and controller players, and probably the sole reason snipedown is even able to compete with Apex players on PC while he uses a controller.  Because all the speed and mouse precision in the world means nothing when a mkb player doesn't know how to place their reticle in front of a player.

There's also distinct ways you could tune a projectile weapon that can create 3 different levels reactivity and skill. 

1: The lowest level is a full hitscan weapon sandbox. Meaning, you have absolutely no shot lead. Every non random weapon has the potential to crossmap laser contest using a MKB (which will happen on PC).  And there is no possible counterplay potential from the enemy, because you can't dodge something that is instant. This is ^ when you start having all sorts of balancing issues and developers resort to adding in bloom or shot spread like Fortnite because basically every gun in your sandbox is out-sniping the sniper. There's only so much you can do with hitscan.

2: There's fast moving projectile, a la Halo CE / Halo 3.  Meaning that it introduces skill and shot lead and limited weapon ranges in an organic way by just dropping the projectile speed.  It's still not reactive at all, as it is impossible to see a sniper bullet or BR bullet coming at you and react or dodge accordingly, but at the very least it adds an element of skill to the attacker that can be tuned accordingly. In my mind there's literally no reason to not have this ^ because hitscan's biggest advantage over slow moving projectile is that you can hit the quick windows of opportunities, especially in games like quake that are highly predictive in terms of map movement and sometimes you need to hit the rail on someone as they fly past a slit window.  But the speed of fast-moving projectiles like the sniper in Halo is quite literally what, 2 maybe 3 frames tops?  There's effectively no window of opportunity that is too small for those weapons to hit, all you're doing is adding an element of skill to the attacking party. Why wouldn't you take that? Especially considering the very tech of projectile means that it's "traveling" speed is based on frame rate, meaning that under a certain range the weapon, for all purposes, it still hitscan.  I think Bungie said that with the Halo 3's sniper speed, S2 to Top Gold on Guardian is still hitscan for all purposes (although it might not feel like this because the networking is really bad, but I actually enjoy the minor lead even here).

3: Then there's slow moving projectile, like what you see in Quake with the Rockets / Nailgun. This is obviously heavily skill based as the shot lead becomes exaggerated, but it also adds the element of reactivity from the other party - which is awesome.  Ultimately in a perfect world you could be left with a single point of health and still live to challenge a slew of enemies because you really are that much better than them.  That's not something that is ever feasibly possible even using fast moving projectile, because it's not up to your own skill for movement and reaction.  It's just up to the enemy to put their reticle on you and then it's game over. Which is why fully hitscan games or even fast moving projectile games put a hard cap on the skill ceiling.  So much of your own survivability is totally and completely out of your own hands. There's obviously situations here where some things literally just become impossible with reactive projectiles, but that's sort of the point. The idea that I can have a full auto shredding machine gun (nailgun) that can function without even a drop of random spread and still be capped at distance is awesome. It's also why I think the scattershot in Halo 5, despite the idiotic bounce homing nonsense, is actually a really cool gun. Because it's literally a shotgun - the shortest possible range weapon - but it STILL has an ounce of shot lead at close quarters because of how the scattershot projectiles come out.  I think that's awesome. And it's why the spiker would be an awesome full auto replacement for the AR in Halo if it was tuned appropriately...but that'll never happen because of the visual of the weapon alone.

 

That's ^ essentially why I think hitscan doesn't even need to exist in modern gaming and honestly shouldn't.  Even the furthest ranges weaponry in any game would ideally be better done with a fast moving projectile that at the very least introduces an additional element of skill to the attacking party. Also final thing worth noting is that it heavily, heavily rewards moving players.  While hitscan usually punishes them.  If anyone here has played both Titanfall's extensively like I have you'll realize how totally, completely, and fully dogshit titanfall 2 is for about a hundred reasons compared to the first.  But perhaps the biggest offender in the sequel is the weapon sandbox is totally out of whack as all the most potent weapons are the hitscan laser beams that pretty much require you to hunker down in a window and just shoot people as they fly by. You could try and parkour and maneuver to your heart's content but to be frank, you're better off just sitting in a window somewhere not moving at all.  In fact that's basically what 90% of my deaths are to in that game.  If the sandbox had blanketed projectile attributes instead of being 95% hitscan basically every stagnation and camping issue in that shit game would be fixed.  The fast you'd move on walls and jumping the harder you would be to hit.  Sitting still would grant the opposite effect where they could essentially point and click.  Hitscan seriously heavily skews every fight in the favor of the player who is just sitting there.

 

There's also a lot of other tools out there that I've never seen mentioned here for weapon balancing that you guys should probably take into account. Projectile size being the most prominent, meaning the actual width of the bullet you are shooting, and this can be applied to both hitscan and projectile weapons. The most heinous example is likely Hanzo shooting his tree logs but these projectile sizes can become disgustingly small so that you're missing by hitting small cracks between the shoulder blades.  Having this be tuned allows you to keep auto aim and bullet magnetism relatively low (or high) given how you want to balance things.  So, low AA w/ large projectile size, or high AA with tiny projectile size.  And an infinite amount of variations in-between.

 

Bullet drop, never been in Halo.  But would be awesome for the sniper/utility weapon or even CQC weapons like the spiker. It means you could have the spiker be accurate, perhaps even semi fast moving, but have the projectiles dip at a certain point so the range is hard capped organically without randomness. Like projectile, it just adds an additional element of skill to the attacking party - I really see no reason to not have this in some form however minor.

 

Bullet sway, as CE has it.  This should come back.

 

Damage drop off.  Stay away from it. I don't like it.  If you're good enough to place your reticle at a distance, you deserve the damage.  It also creates this awkward spot where if the enemy had taken an inch forward they would have received double the damage because it was inside the drop off range.  Lots of weird scenarios with this mechanic.

 

Projectile limits. As in the projectile literally does not exist past a certain point. This can be good or bad depending on execution.  Halo 2 BR has a pretty short actual range as some of you saw when I linked the clip of me shooting across the Zanzibar beach -  the bullets literally disappeared before the other person. Very odd.  It can be good when contextualized correctly though, like the brute shot air bursting after a certain point. Or roadhog's Left Click shotgun has the pellets just explode in the air after a set distance.

 

There's about a hundred other ways to balance a sandbox in a more interesting and skillful way than to just have it be hitscan and low AA. Seriously the quickest way to have me lose interest in a game is to have reskinned lasers all over. Expand your mindz.

[TheIcePrincess]

20 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Projectile really is this magical balancing feature that solves basically every issue that has ever existed within any video game sandbox. Because what someone was saying several pages back that everyone laughed at but is actually spot on, is that it's 100% a mental skill that gets injected straight into every single moment of mechanical skill.

The most popular criticism of projectile I want to address is that it makes fights sloppy somehow. The only difference between projectile gunplay and hitscan gunplay is that hitscan has an exact point you have to aim at, while projectile has that same exact level of precision and accuracy, but it's not exactly on the player. You just have to read the context and compensate your aim accordingly. But the exact spot your reticle needs to land on to hit the headshot is just as small, and just as precise as it would be in hitscan. But that imaginary target is in front of the enemy and not on them. You just have to have the mental knowledge to understand how fast your projectiles move, how far the enemy is, and how fast they are moving... and in the case of CE, you have to take into account your own velocity. It's the same exact mechanical skill with added splash of mental skill, and no one should have an issue with that.

You can't say it requires the same level of precision when one fundamentally rewards you for aiming off target, which isn't thoroughly conveyed to you as a player ala Fall of Cybertron and likely never will be. Let alone the fact aiming off target in a console shooter is quite... Fucky. 

I could have all the mental knowledge in the world about the projectile I deal with, and I could still whiff a shot because I already have to aim off target to have to hit him. Could misjudge the distance by a meter or two because all I'm going off of is sightlines and suddenly, I whiff and alert an enemy to my presence with a missed shot that I couldn't have known of until the bullet hit, lol. Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim. If they suddenly stop moving or step backwards, regardless of if they saw me, I'll whiff. Yet another thing to account for that is outside of my control that is absolute cock.

Then you have the glory of hitscan, which is dependent on your aim solely as you look to someone or something. It's consistent. No external factors or fuckery being introduced for you to deal with. Just straight shooting based on how you aim.  

Projectile isn't magical. It's just inconsistent and adds too many external factors to what should be a simple mechanic. 

[Xandrith]

3 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You can't say it requires the same level of precision when one fundamentally rewards you for aiming off target, which isn't thoroughly conveyed to you as a player ala Fall of Cybertron and likely never will be. Let alone the fact aiming off target in a console shooter is quite... Fucky. 

I could have all the mental knowledge in the world about the projectile I deal with, and I could still whiff a shot because I already have to aim off target to have to hit him. Could misjudge the distance by a meter or two because all I'm going off of is sightlines and suddenly, I whiff and alert an enemy to my presence with a missed shot that I couldn't have known of until the bullet hit, lol. Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim. If they suddenly stop moving or step backwards, regardless of if they saw me, I'll whiff. Yet another thing to account for that is outside of my control that is absolute cock.

Then you have the glory of hitscan, which is dependent on your aim solely as you look to someone or something. It's consistent. No external factors or fuckery being introduced for you to deal with. Just straight shooting based on how you aim.  

Projectile isn't magical. It's just inconsistent and adds too many external factors to what should be a simple mechanic. 

Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim

This is a slippery slope.

If I miss a shot because someone happened to move out of its trajectory, we shouldn't assume this is a bad thing. There exists a huge distinction between a wrongful prediction and a random happenstance. If a player "happens" to move out of the trajectory of a grenade I throw, I wasn't robbed as a result of randomness, I just failed to predict that players movement.

It should also be stated that, yes, sometimes a player will move in a way that couldn't have been predicted. This is okay, good even. Players are autonomous, not random, and that distinction is quite precisely the entire draw of playing against other people in a multiplayer mode. 

[MultiLockOn]

35 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You can't say it requires the same level of precision when one fundamentally rewards you for aiming off target, which isn't thoroughly conveyed to you as a player ala Fall of Cybertron and likely never will be. Let alone the fact aiming off target in a console shooter is quite... Fucky. 

I could have all the mental knowledge in the world about the projectile I deal with, and I could still whiff a shot because I already have to aim off target to have to hit him. Could misjudge the distance by a meter or two because all I'm going off of is sightlines and suddenly, I whiff and alert an enemy to my presence with a missed shot that I couldn't have known of until the bullet hit, lol. Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim. If they suddenly stop moving or step backwards, regardless of if they saw me, I'll whiff. Yet another thing to account for that is outside of my control that is absolute cock.

Then you have the glory of hitscan, which is dependent on your aim solely as you look to someone or something. It's consistent. No external factors or fuckery being introduced for you to deal with. Just straight shooting based on how you aim.  

Projectile isn't magical. It's just inconsistent and adds too many external factors to what should be a simple mechanic. 

Everything you just said is nonsense.

 

 

There is nothing random about any of it. There is nothing sloppy. The level of precision I need to hit the point to be shot at doesn't change.  It is always a fixed point. While this picture I mocked up is exaggerated it demonstrates that. In the final example because my sway would already veer my bullets left, I don't need to compensate the projectile. If I was strafing to the right in that picture, the red target would've moved twice as far to the left as it was in the second picture. But, it is still a precise point to be aimed at.  If they stop moving and your bullet misses 1: it is impossible to react to fast moving projectiles like Halo CE/3, so even with hitscan you would've missed. That's essentially just a strafe. And 2: How could that possibly be considered a bad thing? Being able to react is extremely important, it's literally the bane of what makes arena shooters work. If I AM that much better than you, I should be able to dodge your fire. I can't fathom how this is possibly a negative. Everything you just said is elementary level emotional thinking that has no basis on what is actually happening in the game. It's just "I want to aim AT them because it FEELS weird to aim ahead of them."
 

[Fixaimingsorry]

30 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Everything you just said is nonsense.

 

 

There is nothing random about any of it. There is nothing sloppy. The level of precision I need to hit the point to be shot at doesn't change.  It is always a fixed point. While this picture I mocked up is exaggerated it demonstrates that. In the final example because my sway would already veer my bullets left, I don't need to compensate the projectile. If I was strafing to the right in that picture, the red target would've moved twice as far to the left as it was in the second picture. But, it is still a precise point to be aimed at.  If they stop moving and your bullet misses 1: it is impossible to react to fast moving projectiles like Halo CE/3, so even with hitscan you would've missed. That's essentially just a strafe. And 2: How could that possibly be considered a bad thing? Being able to react is extremely important, it's literally the bane of what makes arena shooters work. If I AM that much better than you, I should be able to dodge your fire. I can't fathom how this is possibly a negative. Everything you just said is elementary level emotional thinking that has no basis on what is actually happening in the game. It's just "I want to aim AT them because it FEELS weird to aim ahead of them."
 

I agree with projectile shooting but not your weapon sway. That mechanic doesn’t work well in a game like halo where it’s all about fast movement. It works in a game like Pubg, but that’s because it’s not movement dependent. 

[My Namez BEAST]

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

[My Namez BEAST]

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

[My Namez BEAST]

L

[Cursed Lemon]

Missing shots at long range with projectile weapons due to the unpredictability of the enemy's movement is a matter of weapon balance rather than a matter of skill. Contrary to the claims of some, you cannot "consistently dome noobs across HeH", and the implicit question there is should you be able to? It goes down a long rabbit hole of whether it's good for the game to have actual battles at that range. 

[TheIcePrincess]

1 minute ago, MultiLockOn said:

Everything you just said is nonsense.

 

 

There is nothing random about any of it. There is nothing sloppy. The level of precision I need to hit the point to be shot at doesn't change.  It is always a fixed point. While this picture I mocked up is exaggerated it demonstrates that point. In the final example because my sway would already veer my bullets left, I don't need to compensate the projectile. If I was strafing to the right in that picture, the red target would've moved twice as far to the left as it was in the second picture. But, it is still a precise point to be aimed at.  If they stop moving and your bullet misses 1: it is impossible to react to fast moving projectiles like Halo CE/3, so even with hitscan you would've missed. That's essentially just a strafe. And 2: How could that possibly be considered a bad thing? Being able to react is extremely important, it's literally the bane of what makes arena shooters work. If I AM that much better than you, I should be able to dodge your fire. I can't fathom how this is possibly a negative. Everything you just said is elementary level emotional thinking that has no basis on what is actually happening in the game. It's just "I want to aim AT them because it FEELS weird to aim ahead of them."
 

I didn't say it was random, I said it was inconsistent. It's obviously not RNG and can be mitigated to an extent, but it will never be as consistent as hitscan can be. And I want consistency. 

Second, my example on someone moving out of my bullet's trajectory wasn't in regards to combat. Someone simply moving naturally can literally make me whiff a shot even if they don't see me or weren't reacting to me, especially given I'm already aiming well off target. That isn't a matter of you being better than me. It's a matter of me guessing where to fire, firing, and you moving out of the bullet's trajectory by pure circumstance. That isn't a good thing. Fortnite snipers are horrible to use for that reason. Because it introduces inconsistency at range. Not that I'm a terrible shot, I'm not, but when you begin to put your bullet's probability of impacting into the hands of someone else's movement over your inherent, raw aim, there's going to be more inconsistency outside of simple combat that takes the fight out of your hands. This doesn't go over how if you just had a good strafe and a hard enough weapon, a hitscan weapon could be dodged or juked. Hell, Halo 5 showed you could have an easy pistol and people will still whiff and chug a cactus at shooting their gun, lol. Not really against that, nor did I say strafing or the ability to is a bad thing.

Third, no, I want to aim at people through hitscan because I want my weapon to be consistent. Where I aim, I should hit. Being rewarded for aiming off target isn't what I wanna base my game around. Basically a reiteration of my last points. Give me consistency or give me death.

20 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim

This is a slippery slope.

If I miss a shot because someone happened to move out of its trajectory, we shouldn't assume this is a bad thing. There exists a huge distinction between a wrongful prediction and a random happenstance. If a player "happens" to move out of the trajectory of a grenade I throw, I wasn't robbed as a result of randomness, I just failed to predict that players movement.

It should also be stated that, yes, sometimes a player will move in a way that couldn't have been predicted. This is okay, good even. Players are autonomous, not random, and that distinction is quite precisely the entire draw of playing against other people in a multiplayer mode. 

Refer to above.

[Xandrith]

2 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

I agree with projectile shooting but not your weapon sway. That mechanic doesn’t work well in a game like halo where it’s all about fast movement. It works in a game like Pubg, but that’s because it’s not movement dependent. 

If you're not moving, then there's no weapon sway. It's only relevant in a game with decent movement.

[MultiLockOn]

5 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

I agree with projectile shooting but not your weapon sway. That mechanic doesn’t work well in a game like halo where it’s all about fast movement. It works in a game like Pubg, but that’s because it’s not movement dependent. 

On the contrary, bullet sway is literally THE secret sauce that makes Halo CE what it is. If it didn't exist Halo CE would not work and you'd likely be 3 shotting in every game encounter. It is active in every moment, every trigger pull, every encounter to some degree. That's what makes the shooting in that game what it is.

 

Mind you this has all been told to me BY an ex Halo weapon engineer who just moved to Austin down the street from me

[MultiLockOn]

5 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it?

Why does every major game have sprint and ADS? This is silly reasoning come now. Also, it's MUCH easier to network if you don't have talented programmers.  As we've seen with Overwatch, it is very possible to have beautifully networked projectiles. Again, they have the best networking team in the industry, and 20 years of services to pull data from.  So it's easier said than done, but I'd take shoddy online projectiles than a slew of laser beams colored differently masquerading as different weapons.

 

Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand.

Yes.

 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable.

Everything you just said could be applied to hitscan, DOES apply to hitscan, and has a slew of other issues on top of it. I'm not asking for mental gymnastics, this is all a pretty simple concept.  Where your bullet goes, is a fixed point always.  It is just a different fixed point.  If you're trying to argue that it makes it sloppy or unpredictable  I would ask you to show me an example of you dodging an incoming sniper bullet in Halo 3, hell even a BR burst which travels slower.  You can't react to it. It is for all intents and purposes, instant from the receiving end except the attacker still needs to compensate a pixel, a milimeter, an inch of shot lead.

 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

You're asking ridiculous questions I've already answered and that frankly, are hypocritical.  People miss with hitscan because the solution to hitscan weapons is to drop the AA unbelievably low, which on a controller as you've kindly just pointed out, is not a good solution. So having the gunskill exist through projectile (and lose no level of precision, as we've established) while being able to retain some degree of AA solve that problem, and a hundred others involving weapon ranges. And reactivity.  And zoning. And a hundred other things that I've already addressed that you're going to conveniently ignore.

 

It also doesn't help that most console shooters have awful aim curves, another reason that AA dependent hitscan aiming is a poor solution.  AA naturally is going to move your aimer in all sorts of funny ways, you're better off having low AA with fast moving large projectiles that let you freely move your aimer around the screen without magnetism. Sorta like... what's that game...

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah. Halo CE.

 

[Xandrith]

5 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

I mean, if we're talking about Halo 5, the absolute dogshit aiming is probably a big reason why people miss shots, even with hitscan.

 

I feel as though many think you we enough auto-aim on console that you couldn't pull away from your target, even if you tried. Or, rather, that console games can only work with that much auto-aim. Here's the thing... that's just not true. If a game puts accurate and predictable aiming mechanics first and foremost, it can get away with ludicrously low aim-assist, if any. (see: Halo 1 and R6Siege)

 

At that point, projectiles and bullet sway can be implemented and offer up a consistent and predictable source of depth to your shooting mechanics. 

[Fixaimingsorry]

13 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

On the contrary, bullet sway is literally THE secret sauce that makes Halo CE what it is. If it didn't exist Halo CE would not work and you'd likely be 3 shotting in every game encounter. It is active in every moment, every trigger pull, every encounter to some degree. That's what makes the shooting in that game what it is.

 

Mind you this has all been told to me BY an ex Halo weapon engineer who just moved to Austin down the street from me

Yeah you’re only moving left or right in that game. You’re not doing all the crazy strafes crouch, Gandhi hopping etc. that wouldn’t work. It’s also not in quake.

[Mr Grim]

12 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Missing shots at long range with projectile weapons due to the unpredictability of the enemy's movement is a matter of weapon balance rather than a matter of skill. Contrary to the claims of some, you cannot "consistently dome noobs across HeH", and the implicit question there is should you be able to? It goes down a long rabbit hole of whether it's good for the game to have actual battles at that range. 

Didn't we determine that it was a good thing when we debated on what makes spread ass? Part of the problem was the inability to fight at range.

[Cursed Lemon]

2 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

Didn't we determine that it was a good thing when we debated on what makes spread ass? Part of the problem was the inability to fight at range.

My statement wasn't a loaded one, it's a discussion worth having. Let's be reminded, though, of the fact that one of the absolute worst things about later Halos is how much fighting is done at range, creating no man's lands and stagnating gameplay. This is a problem for map design over shooting mechanics of course, but one ought to ask - would CE be better if it had zero spread but no zoom on the pistol (and possibly a slightly adjusted RRR)? 

[Mythik Nick]

12 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

I mean, if we're talking about Halo 5, the absolute dogshit aiming is probably a big reason why people miss shots, even with hitscan.

 

I feel as though many think you we enough auto-aim on console that you couldn't pull away from your target, even if you tried. Or, rather, that console games can only work with that much auto-aim. Here's the thing... that's just not true. If a game puts accurate and predictable aiming mechanics first and foremost, it can get away with ludicrously low aim-assist, if any. (see: Halo 1 and R6Siege)

 

At that point, projectiles and bullet sway can be implemented and offer up a consistent and predictable source of depth to your shooting mechanics. 

Halo CE does not have "ludicrously low aim-assist", even relative to other games in the series. Why do people say this?