Jump to content
CyReN

Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

Recommended Posts

31 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Lmao please don't delete this LOL haha 

In all seriousness though, there is nothing wrong with being young .

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

What if we had projectile for lan only but hitscan for online?

Worst idea when most scrims are online. You'd essentially be practicing for a game you'd never play for money.

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Worst idea when most scrims are online. You'd essentially be practicing for a game you'd never play for money.

 

Oh good point I didn't think about practicing and shit like that.

Share this post


Link to post

Hitscan is fine and reliable (unless you're the H5 Magnum). What we really need to focus on is properly adjusting AA and BM. Or maybe just AA and leave BM out completely.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, HeX Reapers said:

Hitscan is fine and reliable (unless you're the H5 Magnum). What we really need to focus on is properly adjusting AA and BM. Or maybe just AA and leave BM out completely.

For m&k thatd be fine but controllers suck for precision so you need that stuff on console.

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Projectile really is this magical balancing feature that solves basically every issue that has ever existed within any video game sandbox. Because what someone was saying several pages back that everyone laughed at but is actually spot on, is that it's 100% a mental skill that gets injected straight into every single moment of mechanical skill.

The most popular criticism of projectile I want to address is that it makes fights sloppy somehow. The only difference between projectile gunplay and hitscan gunplay is that hitscan has an exact point you have to aim at, while projectile has that same exact level of precision and accuracy, but it's not exactly on the player. You just have to read the context and compensate your aim accordingly. But the exact spot your reticle needs to land on to hit the headshot is just as small, and just as precise as it would be in hitscan. But that imaginary target is in front of the enemy and not on them. You just have to have the mental knowledge to understand how fast your projectiles move, how far the enemy is, and how fast they are moving... and in the case of CE, you have to take into account your own velocity. It's the same exact mechanical skill with added splash of mental skill, and no one should have an issue with that.

You can't say it requires the same level of precision when one fundamentally rewards you for aiming off target, which isn't thoroughly conveyed to you as a player ala Fall of Cybertron and likely never will be. Let alone the fact aiming off target in a console shooter is quite... Fucky. 

I could have all the mental knowledge in the world about the projectile I deal with, and I could still whiff a shot because I already have to aim off target to have to hit him. Could misjudge the distance by a meter or two because all I'm going off of is sightlines and suddenly, I whiff and alert an enemy to my presence with a missed shot that I couldn't have known of until the bullet hit, lol. Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim. If they suddenly stop moving or step backwards, regardless of if they saw me, I'll whiff. Yet another thing to account for that is outside of my control that is absolute cock.

Then you have the glory of hitscan, which is dependent on your aim solely as you look to someone or something. It's consistent. No external factors or fuckery being introduced for you to deal with. Just straight shooting based on how you aim.  

Projectile isn't magical. It's just inconsistent and adds too many external factors to what should be a simple mechanic. 

  • Downvote (-1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You can't say it requires the same level of precision when one fundamentally rewards you for aiming off target, which isn't thoroughly conveyed to you as a player ala Fall of Cybertron and likely never will be. Let alone the fact aiming off target in a console shooter is quite... Fucky. 

I could have all the mental knowledge in the world about the projectile I deal with, and I could still whiff a shot because I already have to aim off target to have to hit him. Could misjudge the distance by a meter or two because all I'm going off of is sightlines and suddenly, I whiff and alert an enemy to my presence with a missed shot that I couldn't have known of until the bullet hit, lol. Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim. If they suddenly stop moving or step backwards, regardless of if they saw me, I'll whiff. Yet another thing to account for that is outside of my control that is absolute cock.

Then you have the glory of hitscan, which is dependent on your aim solely as you look to someone or something. It's consistent. No external factors or fuckery being introduced for you to deal with. Just straight shooting based on how you aim.  

Projectile isn't magical. It's just inconsistent and adds too many external factors to what should be a simple mechanic. 

Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim

This is a slippery slope.

If I miss a shot because someone happened to move out of its trajectory, we shouldn't assume this is a bad thing. There exists a huge distinction between a wrongful prediction and a random happenstance. If a player "happens" to move out of the trajectory of a grenade I throw, I wasn't robbed as a result of randomness, I just failed to predict that players movement.

It should also be stated that, yes, sometimes a player will move in a way that couldn't have been predicted. This is okay, good even. Players are autonomous, not random, and that distinction is quite precisely the entire draw of playing against other people in a multiplayer mode. 

  • Like (+1) 8
  • Toxic (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Everything you just said is nonsense.

 

GKjNezn.jpg

 

There is nothing random about any of it. There is nothing sloppy. The level of precision I need to hit the point to be shot at doesn't change.  It is always a fixed point. While this picture I mocked up is exaggerated it demonstrates that. In the final example because my sway would already veer my bullets left, I don't need to compensate the projectile. If I was strafing to the right in that picture, the red target would've moved twice as far to the left as it was in the second picture. But, it is still a precise point to be aimed at.  If they stop moving and your bullet misses 1: it is impossible to react to fast moving projectiles like Halo CE/3, so even with hitscan you would've missed. That's essentially just a strafe. And 2: How could that possibly be considered a bad thing? Being able to react is extremely important, it's literally the bane of what makes arena shooters work. If I AM that much better than you, I should be able to dodge your fire. I can't fathom how this is possibly a negative. Everything you just said is elementary level emotional thinking that has no basis on what is actually happening in the game. It's just "I want to aim AT them because it FEELS weird to aim ahead of them."
 

I agree with projectile shooting but not your weapon sway. That mechanic doesn’t work well in a game like halo where it’s all about fast movement. It works in a game like Pubg, but that’s because it’s not movement dependent. 

Share this post


Link to post

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1
  • Fire (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

Share this post


Link to post

Missing shots at long range with projectile weapons due to the unpredictability of the enemy's movement is a matter of weapon balance rather than a matter of skill. Contrary to the claims of some, you cannot "consistently dome noobs across HeH", and the implicit question there is should you be able to? It goes down a long rabbit hole of whether it's good for the game to have actual battles at that range. 

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Toxic (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, MultiLockOn said:

Everything you just said is nonsense.

 

GKjNezn.jpg

 

There is nothing random about any of it. There is nothing sloppy. The level of precision I need to hit the point to be shot at doesn't change.  It is always a fixed point. While this picture I mocked up is exaggerated it demonstrates that point. In the final example because my sway would already veer my bullets left, I don't need to compensate the projectile. If I was strafing to the right in that picture, the red target would've moved twice as far to the left as it was in the second picture. But, it is still a precise point to be aimed at.  If they stop moving and your bullet misses 1: it is impossible to react to fast moving projectiles like Halo CE/3, so even with hitscan you would've missed. That's essentially just a strafe. And 2: How could that possibly be considered a bad thing? Being able to react is extremely important, it's literally the bane of what makes arena shooters work. If I AM that much better than you, I should be able to dodge your fire. I can't fathom how this is possibly a negative. Everything you just said is elementary level emotional thinking that has no basis on what is actually happening in the game. It's just "I want to aim AT them because it FEELS weird to aim ahead of them."
 

I didn't say it was random, I said it was inconsistent. It's obviously not RNG and can be mitigated to an extent, but it will never be as consistent as hitscan can be. And I want consistency. 

Second, my example on someone moving out of my bullet's trajectory wasn't in regards to combat. Someone simply moving naturally can literally make me whiff a shot even if they don't see me or weren't reacting to me, especially given I'm already aiming well off target. That isn't a matter of you being better than me. It's a matter of me guessing where to fire, firing, and you moving out of the bullet's trajectory by pure circumstance. That isn't a good thing. Fortnite snipers are horrible to use for that reason. Because it introduces inconsistency at range. Not that I'm a terrible shot, I'm not, but when you begin to put your bullet's probability of impacting into the hands of someone else's movement over your inherent, raw aim, there's going to be more inconsistency outside of simple combat that takes the fight out of your hands. This doesn't go over how if you just had a good strafe and a hard enough weapon, a hitscan weapon could be dodged or juked. Hell, Halo 5 showed you could have an easy pistol and people will still whiff and chug a cactus at shooting their gun, lol. Not really against that, nor did I say strafing or the ability to is a bad thing.

Third, no, I want to aim at people through hitscan because I want my weapon to be consistent. Where I aim, I should hit. Being rewarded for aiming off target isn't what I wanna base my game around. Basically a reiteration of my last points. Give me consistency or give me death.

20 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

Or, you know, my bullet hitting could also be entirely dependent on whether or not my enemy moves into my bullet, over my actual aim

This is a slippery slope.

If I miss a shot because someone happened to move out of its trajectory, we shouldn't assume this is a bad thing. There exists a huge distinction between a wrongful prediction and a random happenstance. If a player "happens" to move out of the trajectory of a grenade I throw, I wasn't robbed as a result of randomness, I just failed to predict that players movement.

It should also be stated that, yes, sometimes a player will move in a way that couldn't have been predicted. This is okay, good even. Players are autonomous, not random, and that distinction is quite precisely the entire draw of playing against other people in a multiplayer mode. 

Refer to above.

  • Simms (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

I agree with projectile shooting but not your weapon sway. That mechanic doesn’t work well in a game like halo where it’s all about fast movement. It works in a game like Pubg, but that’s because it’s not movement dependent. 

If you're not moving, then there's no weapon sway. It's only relevant in a game with decent movement.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

I agree with projectile shooting but not your weapon sway. That mechanic doesn’t work well in a game like halo where it’s all about fast movement. It works in a game like Pubg, but that’s because it’s not movement dependent. 

On the contrary, bullet sway is literally THE secret sauce that makes Halo CE what it is. If it didn't exist Halo CE would not work and you'd likely be 3 shotting in every game encounter. It is active in every moment, every trigger pull, every encounter to some degree. That's what makes the shooting in that game what it is.

 

Mind you this has all been told to me BY an ex Halo weapon engineer who just moved to Austin down the street from me

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it?

Why does every major game have sprint and ADS? This is silly reasoning come now. Also, it's MUCH easier to network if you don't have talented programmers.  As we've seen with Overwatch, it is very possible to have beautifully networked projectiles. Again, they have the best networking team in the industry, and 20 years of services to pull data from.  So it's easier said than done, but I'd take shoddy online projectiles than a slew of laser beams colored differently masquerading as different weapons.

 

Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand.

Yes.

 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable.

Everything you just said could be applied to hitscan, DOES apply to hitscan, and has a slew of other issues on top of it. I'm not asking for mental gymnastics, this is all a pretty simple concept.  Where your bullet goes, is a fixed point always.  It is just a different fixed point.  If you're trying to argue that it makes it sloppy or unpredictable  I would ask you to show me an example of you dodging an incoming sniper bullet in Halo 3, hell even a BR burst which travels slower.  You can't react to it. It is for all intents and purposes, instant from the receiving end except the attacker still needs to compensate a pixel, a milimeter, an inch of shot lead.

 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

You're asking ridiculous questions I've already answered and that frankly, are hypocritical.  People miss with hitscan because the solution to hitscan weapons is to drop the AA unbelievably low, which on a controller as you've kindly just pointed out, is not a good solution. So having the gunskill exist through projectile (and lose no level of precision, as we've established) while being able to retain some degree of AA solve that problem, and a hundred others involving weapon ranges. And reactivity.  And zoning. And a hundred other things that I've already addressed that you're going to conveniently ignore.

 

It also doesn't help that most console shooters have awful aim curves, another reason that AA dependent hitscan aiming is a poor solution.  AA naturally is going to move your aimer in all sorts of funny ways, you're better off having low AA with fast moving large projectiles that let you freely move your aimer around the screen without magnetism. Sorta like... what's that game...

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah. Halo CE.

 

  • Like (+1) 5
  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Yea I want to lead on my console shooter that has mechanisms that lock and slow your reticle when you aim at someone. That's TRUE skill. Again if hitscan is just soooooooooo bad why does basically every major FPS use it? Let me guess, because you know more than them and they are all stupid. THEY just don't REALLY understand. 

Again when you NEED to lead at range you literally slap your reticle on someone and swipe and shoot while hoping your shots hit. Sure you make guesses while doing it but depending on fire rate you literally just wiggle your stick while spraying and hope the dude walks into your bullets. That's what happens. Every time. And you literally have more bullet mag on games that have projectiles. Why is that? Because it needs MORE assistance to be reliable. 

Once again if hitscan is just SOOOOO easy why do people here struggle in gunfights so much? I mean surely it's easy enough that we shouldn't be able to clearly see that some people just don't have gunskill. 

I mean, if we're talking about Halo 5, the absolute dogshit aiming is probably a big reason why people miss shots, even with hitscan.

 

I feel as though many think you we enough auto-aim on console that you couldn't pull away from your target, even if you tried. Or, rather, that console games can only work with that much auto-aim. Here's the thing... that's just not true. If a game puts accurate and predictable aiming mechanics first and foremost, it can get away with ludicrously low aim-assist, if any. (see: Halo 1 and R6Siege)

 

At that point, projectiles and bullet sway can be implemented and offer up a consistent and predictable source of depth to your shooting mechanics. 

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

On the contrary, bullet sway is literally THE secret sauce that makes Halo CE what it is. If it didn't exist Halo CE would not work and you'd likely be 3 shotting in every game encounter. It is active in every moment, every trigger pull, every encounter to some degree. That's what makes the shooting in that game what it is.

 

Mind you this has all been told to me BY an ex Halo weapon engineer who just moved to Austin down the street from me

Yeah you’re only moving left or right in that game. You’re not doing all the crazy strafes crouch, Gandhi hopping etc. that wouldn’t work. It’s also not in quake.

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Missing shots at long range with projectile weapons due to the unpredictability of the enemy's movement is a matter of weapon balance rather than a matter of skill. Contrary to the claims of some, you cannot "consistently dome noobs across HeH", and the implicit question there is should you be able to? It goes down a long rabbit hole of whether it's good for the game to have actual battles at that range. 

Didn't we determine that it was a good thing when we debated on what makes spread ass? Part of the problem was the inability to fight at range.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

Didn't we determine that it was a good thing when we debated on what makes spread ass? Part of the problem was the inability to fight at range.

My statement wasn't a loaded one, it's a discussion worth having. Let's be reminded, though, of the fact that one of the absolute worst things about later Halos is how much fighting is done at range, creating no man's lands and stagnating gameplay. This is a problem for map design over shooting mechanics of course, but one ought to ask - would CE be better if it had zero spread but no zoom on the pistol (and possibly a slightly adjusted RRR)? 

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

I mean, if we're talking about Halo 5, the absolute dogshit aiming is probably a big reason why people miss shots, even with hitscan.

 

I feel as though many think you we enough auto-aim on console that you couldn't pull away from your target, even if you tried. Or, rather, that console games can only work with that much auto-aim. Here's the thing... that's just not true. If a game puts accurate and predictable aiming mechanics first and foremost, it can get away with ludicrously low aim-assist, if any. (see: Halo 1 and R6Siege)

 

At that point, projectiles and bullet sway can be implemented and offer up a consistent and predictable source of depth to your shooting mechanics. 

Halo CE does not have "ludicrously low aim-assist", even relative to other games in the series. Why do people say this?

  • Upvote (+1) 1
  • Downvote (-1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.