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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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2 minutes ago, Arftacular said:

Right. Because words have definitions and words mean things. So in order to get your point across, use the appropriate context. I won't quantify a qualitative statement. Thanks again.

Your definition of "competitive" is worthless because you have no zero reference for what makes a team the one that deserves to win, and that makes your judgment of CE 4's worthless because you have no bar to weigh them against to call them trash, which is exactly what you did. 99.9% of all games designed by humanity have uncompetitive elements to them, that's why competitiveness is a spectrum and why one undesirable element in a game doesn't make it a shitshow by default (tell me again how random spawns are "competitive" again). CE 4's still contain all the elements that make an effective Halo - map cycling, low TTK, high shooting skill gap, segmented map design, proper power item strength, etc. The hectic nature may not be ideal specifically for slayer gametypes, but that is far from the worst thing that's ever happened to a Halo game and far, far away from making them "uncompetitive" in a way that gives that term any meaning at all. 

Don't insult peoples' intelligence up in here. 

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@Arftacular

To your thoughts on the competitive level of Combat Evolved 4v4 relative to 2v2...

I can understand your stance on the level of chaos that is prevalent versus the focused violence of a doubles match. Though it is a bitter pill to swallow, teams of four only work on three maps well enough, but even then those maps are still full of constant action that doesn't give people the option to breath. Even with objective modes in the mix and the increased spawn time, there really isn't much a team needs to do in order to start a train on the other.

I would want some kind of change to the weapons in all of the decent 4v4 maps in CE, and, while I'm sure I'd be laughed at by some CE veterans, I would actually want only a pair of Power Items to contest in said maps, rather than nearly all of them. Imagine if Chill Out only had Camo and Rockets. Beaver Creak having the OS in the river and Rockets on top. OS and Camo on Prisoner. Snipers in the cover spots of Hang Em High. Snipe and Rockets top and bottom mid on Derelict. I'm sure the decrease of constant cycling would alleviate a lot of the problems in 4v4.

Thoughts?

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23 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Your definition of "competitive" is worthless because you have no zero reference for what makes a team the one that deserves to win, and that makes your judgment of CE 4's worthless because you have no bar to weigh them against to call them trash, which is exactly what you did. 99.9% of all games designed by humanity have uncompetitive elements to them, that's why competitiveness is a spectrum and why one undesirable element in a game doesn't make it a shitshow by default (tell me again how random spawns are "competitive" again). CE 4's still contain all the elements that make an effective Halo - map cycling, low TTK, high shooting skill gap, segmented map design, proper power item strength, etc. The hectic nature may not be ideal specifically for slayer gametypes, but that is far from the worst thing that's ever happened to a Halo game and far, far away from making them "uncompetitive" in a way that gives that term any meaning at all. 

Don't insult peoples' intelligence up in here. 

I've already given you my definition of competitive. Whether you accept that or not is up to you. Frankly, I don't care about your opinion anymore to go further down that hole.

 

How much map cycling do you find in HH, Derelict, or Wizard slayer games? Not much. How much in Damnation? Not much. Creek? Not much. Chill out? A little more. Rat Race? A lot.

 

Your sheer lack of understanding of how Halo CE plays is incredibly evident. How does segmented map design matter when it most games people set up in one area for 50 kills (now 75 kills)? 

 

Spawns in 2s are "competitive" because they require spawn knowledge in order to get you/your teammate out of trouble. It's much easier, much more effective, and much less random to spawn your teammate in 2s. In 4s, it's a crapshoot because once you're locked in a spot, you've traded 10 kills in the wrong direction to get a random or a spawn wipe. Why have we traded 10 kills? Because the TTK is low and it's not hard to shoot people on spawn. And since I'm assuming you know that you can block spawns, if you block those spawns then you've decreased the probability of where the other team can spawn. If you spawn on Blue at HH, or top on Derelict, through no effort of your own have you worked to lock down an advantage. It was given to you and the team that did not receive it is wildly disadvantaged. There's a such thing called cascading advantage. I suggest you read about it.

 

That's why spawns are "noncompetitive" in 4s. You seem to have a decent understanding of the individual components of Halo CE, but you don't know how the operate in practice with high level opponents. And that's fine -- that's not your fault. In theory all of these things would work to make an effective Halo game. I agree. But in practice AS IT STANDS, they do not. Objective is a different beast altogether but, remember what I said about map pool? There's an extremely limited selection to play objective games on that aren't broken. However, they do play better than TS games.

 

I was going to insult your intelligence again at the end here. But after typing that up, I realize and know you just don't have the experience or knowledge of the game to refute anything I said. That's okay. We'll agree to disagree.

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23 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

@Arftacular

To your thoughts on the competitive level of Combat Evolved 4v4 relative to 2v2...

I can understand your stance on the level of chaos that is prevalent versus the focused violence of a doubles match. Though it is a bitter pill to swallow, teams of four only work on three maps well enough, but even then those maps are still full of constant action that doesn't give people the option to breath. Even with objective modes in the mix and the increased spawn time, there really isn't much a team needs to do in order to start a train on the other.

I would want some kind of change to the weapons in all of the decent 4v4 maps that in CE, and, while I'm sure I'd be laughed at by some CE veterans, I would actually want only a pair of Power Items to contest in said maps, rather than nearly all of them. Imagine if Chill Out only had Camo and Rockets. Beaver Creak having the OS in the river and Rockets on top. OS and Camo on Prisoner. Snipers in the cover spots of Hang Em High. Snipe and Rockets top and bottom mid on Derelict. I'm sure the decrease of constant cycling would alleviate a lot of the problems in 4v4.

Thoughts?

For the second part, I'd be willing to try these changes to see how it played. I suspect that on maps like Battle Creek would turn into stalemates, similar to how they played in H2. Although nade physics could help that out. But like I said, I'd be willing to try. I think Derelict would benefit from removal/adjustment of rockets and possibly changing a camo spawn to the bottom or something. That might make it play better for 4s. I know people have played around with sniper spawns on Rat Race and say they do play better.

 

Point is, I think some adjustments would be great if that was an option within the game. I'm not too sure what level of flexibility that the devs have with that. A forge mode with H1 would be awesome, I think. I'm not too sure if that exists with the PC version of CE. 

 

However, I do think you'd need a much larger community to test these changes than what we have now. Definitely lots of challenges to get CE 4v4s into an acceptable state for competition but I think it could be done.

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I wish you guys would just put your ego's aside and argue your points. You two are clearly very knowledgable about CE. Just reach a concensus without being asshole dicks.

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If you could add one thing to CE, what would it be?  It could be from a later Halo, another game, or just made up.

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Just now, Arftacular said:

How much map cycling do you find in HH, Derelict, or Wizard slayer games? Not much. How much in Damnation? Not much. Creek? Not much. Chill out? A little more. Rat Race? A lot.

Your sheer lack of understanding of how Halo CE plays is incredibly evident. How does segmented map design matter when it most games people set up in one area for 50 kills (now 75 kills)? 

Please explain to me how you contest for power items by camping. I'm dying to know. 

With the exception of HeH, segmented map design as opposed to open-air map design prevents people from just sitting on a high spot and sniping people with the utility weapon which bogs down matches by discouraging movement (a problem that would be increased by the low TTK). Static weapon timers also factor into this. You can't guard rockets from pink room. 

I'd like to again put emphasis on the fact that these are primarily slayer-only problems.

Quote

Spawns in 2s are "competitive" because they require spawn knowledge in order to get you/your teammate out of trouble. It's much easier, much more effective, and much less random to spawn your teammate in 2s. In 4s, it's a crapshoot because once you're locked in a spot, you've traded 10 kills in the wrong direction to get a random or a spawn wipe. Why have we traded 10 kills? Because the TTK is low and it's not hard to shoot people on spawn. And since I'm assuming you know that you can block spawns, if you block those spawns then you've decreased the probability of where the other team can spawn. If you spawn on Blue at HH, or top on Derelict, through no effort of your own have you worked to lock down an advantage. It was given to you and the team that did not receive it is wildly disadvantaged. There's a such thing called cascading advantage. I suggest you read about it.

I don't know why you're sitting here trying to convince me that spawning is a problem in CE 4's when I've said about a dozen times that I already agree with that. What I said was that your standard of what is "uncompetitive" has no grounding. If 2's didn't have randoms and it was a little harder to get top control on any map back, would you call CE uncompetitive and throw it in the garbage? 

Quote

That's why spawns are "noncompetitive". You seem to have a decent understanding of the individual components of Halo CE, but you don't know how the operate in practice with high level opponents. And that's fine -- that's not your fault. In theory all of these things would work to make an effective Halo game. I agree. But in practice AS IT STANDS, they do not. Objective is a different beast altogether but, remember what I said about map pool? There's an extremely limited selection to play objective games on that aren't broken. However, they do play better than TS games.

Spawns are one element of the game. A big one, but one element. Half of the spawn problem could be eliminated by having the pistol out on spawn, because if you've played even one game of CE then you've gotten embarrassed by someone off spawn that you should've domed (which is a good thing). Again, this is about you claiming that 4's aren't worthy of being played competitively because of one undesirable element, and again, that's why I keep bringing up Halo 2. If for the entire tournament lifespan of Halo 2, a game with the competitive capacity of a coinflip, we effectively saw only three teams that actually mattered...if we can get that level of repeatability out of Bullet Mag Central Station with its glitch-ass melees and the lottery cannon, then I'm pretty sure there's hope for CE 4's. I'm still not sure why you're going on about the meta surrounding CE 4's and high-level players being written in stone, as if high-level CE 4's have even been played in the last 15 years. 

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6 minutes ago, Boyo said:

If you could add one thing to CE, what would it be?  It could be from a later Halo, another game, or just made up.

Other than bug fixes, which isn't really "adding" to CE, I'd add Forge or a full blown Map Maker.

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14 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Please explain to me how you contest for power items by camping. I'm dying to know. 

With the exception of HeH, segmented map design as opposed to open-air map design prevents people from just sitting on a high spot and sniping people with the utility weapon which bogs down matches by discouraging movement (a problem that would be increased by the low TTK). Static weapon timers also factor into this. You can't guard rockets from pink room. 

I'd like to again put emphasis on the fact that these are primarily slayer-only problems.

[i dont care about this part]

Yes, most of what I'm saying is slayer dependent. Objective has more flexibility but it's still not the best. 

Do an exercise with me.

Where are the powerups on Damnation? Camo is on the top. You can also nade rockets to top green pretty easily while you're protected.

Where are the powerups on Creek? Middle and back red. No reason to leave Red once you're set up. OS trumps camo and rockets can be naded back. Camo is ineffective and a bait item at that point.

Wizard: powerups up top. Stay up top.

Prisoner: OS up top, no reason to leave once you're there. Camo and rockets are nullified with even minute nade timings.

Rat Race is good for slayer 4s imo.

You don't necessarily camp, but you are fairly locked in those spots because they are advantageous positions. Powerups in 4s aren't nearly as important as spawn control. 

 

I do think that swapping the pistol/AR inventory positions would be interesting to try out. 

Spawns in 4s are the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE GAME in 4s. Control spawns, you control the game. Due to how the maps, ttk mechanics, spawn mechanics (not just the available spawns, but HOW you spawn) and how items are situated, once you have height advantage or an otherwise location advantage (dammy/wiz/pris/etc) you're pretty much golden.

 

edit: typos because I'm dumb

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2 hours ago, WARGOD said:

Yes, until the game is fixed we can’t even begin to enjoy 4v4 competitively.  Hardway has the ears of someone at 343 that can fix it, but it’s very political.  

We have their ears but that doesn't mean they will be able to fix things that we ask about that are incredibly broken. Just look at the tick rate upgrade for example and CE being omitted because it's different architecture. 

However playlist changes are relatively easy so they can respond to the gametype feedback faster. 

And FYI they are not just listening to Reclaimers blindly. Hard Way is not the sole reason that they make changes. They do consider feedback from all avenues of public communication. 

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Honestly you just need to make a reasonable argument anywhere visible and chances are someone will stop and think about it with regard to MCC. I know people don't believe it because of the radio silence and other 343 games but people do read feedback and good suggestions for MCC. 

 

Such as score limits for 4v4 CE slayer the only thing that has to be done is looking at average map duration and compare that to whatever is roughly the intended average time frame. At that point you already know what to do map by map as far as what the score limit should be. There isn't really anything subjective involved once the intended average is decided and is extremely actionable. Thus changing it is a reasonable suggestion when compared to something like allocating dev time to make games end when they're mathematically impossible to win. Both can be great changes but one is far more simple and quick to change where the other will compete for dev resources and might not be worth the investment to them based on whatever else it is they're working on

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What are Reclaimers?  Are they kinda like the Cartographers but for gameplay related issues?

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To answer my own question from earlier, from what I can tell, H3 plays significant better now with the server updates. The shots you think you should be hitting hit much more frequently than before. 

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3 hours ago, Arftacular said:

I'm more talking about initial neutral spawns at the start of the map. I don't think changing randoms or the way the system works past the opening spawn would be a good idea. I'd more just like to see it tested so you can neutralize the opening spawn advantage/disadvantage on certain maps.

Make no items spawn until the 1 minute mark

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53 minutes ago, VinnyMendoza said:

We have their ears but that doesn't mean they will be able to fix things that we ask about that are incredibly broken. Just look at the tick rate upgrade for example and CE being omitted because it's different architecture. 

However playlist changes are relatively easy so they can respond to the gametype feedback faster. 

And FYI they are not just listening to Reclaimers blindly. Hard Way is not the sole reason that they make changes. They do consider feedback from all avenues of public communication. 

I was told that Postums wasn't relaying the information to the right people, and sometimes, not even relaying what was discussed on waypoint or in the discord.  I was told that that's all been resolved.  I didn't mean to imply that Hard Way is the sole reason for the changes, as I understand it there's a group that have signed an NDA that know what changes need to be made and now this information is getting to the right people, however there's only so much a guy who's competent enough to make the changes can do when the management is dictating priorities.

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I pitched an idea for a Dere tweak that even purists seemed to like. Move camo a bit further towards the edge, so that you could knock it down easily with one nade. It would totally change the map.

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2 hours ago, xSociety said:

Other than bug fixes, which isn't really "adding" to CE, I'd add Forge or a full blown Map Maker.

um... to mcc i suppose, because CE already has that mate.

 

i'd add a buddy system to CE for spawning or add the bruteshot/concussion rifle. 

 

powerups/weps not spawning for 1minute is objectively better, but... less fun. Like i would play that for tournament but lans are for fun 90% of the time you're there. 

 

also derelict could work with set starting spawns. one could argue camo side is better but literally double up spawn and double down spawn are way worse lol. and hey, rocket side. or ofc don't spawn camo first minute too, but OS can spawn. 

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4 hours ago, Boyo said:

If you could add one thing to CE, what would it be?  It could be from a later Halo, another game, or just made up.

In terms of importance:

Mapmaker / Forge.  In-game timer. More gametype settings than the barebones offering  it has now.

There's tons of things I'd change or fix about the game, but if I could only pick a single thing to "add" it would be one of those.

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9 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

This is really hard for you, isn't it? 

Here, I'll break out the 2nd grade MS Paint charts so you can understand it better. 

MhnFJQg.png

Literally Wrong 

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13 hours ago, OG Nick said:

I went to Beach LAN. H2 is silly and everyone who talks like an elitest about h2 got clapped on CE.

 

I went to an event so therefore real world halo experience(lol) says it's true.

Don't know how much of a joke this is but it sounds pretty accurate lol

 

At least some H2 people will play both games.  I can't think of a single H3 kid that would even try CE.  At least that's what I noticed at UGC St. Louis.

I play all three games competitively and get bodied quite often because I spread my time and resources getting better at three classic Halo games instead of just one.  

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12 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It's not really a matter of opinion, lol. Halo 2 isn't leagues harder than any of the later Halo games, and in its own way is actually easier given locking on to someone is easier with a wider reticle compared to a smaller one, even IF it lacks bullet mag that later ones do. The fact people aren't able to dodge is mostly just a matter of strafes sucking, which is more prevalent in some games than others.

Is that statement not an opinion?

Are some aspects of H2C easier than the titles that came after it?  Of course, no doubt.  Does that nullify all of the other numerous difficult mechanics of the game that were lost in translation when H3 came out?   No, I don't believe so.

Maybe I'm having trouble understanding your argument, but to me it seems like you're taking one real item ["locking on to someone"] and using that as a foundation to say that Halo 2 Classic isn't as tough as you think it is.  

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14 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Halo 2 had totally gimped aiming mechanics - the central tenet of a shooting game - and yet Final Boss walked through an entire tourney without dropping a game (and I don't care that you're not making the comparison, because I am), so tell me how CE 4's are "uncompetitive" if H2 managed to be competitive? 

They never had to play Str8 Rippon that tournament :simms:

14 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Y'all need to play each other so I can see who really knows their shit. I know who I got my money on lmao 

Also come on now. H2 has nutty aim assist and bullet mag. It's not harder to shoot in than games like h2a or H5 with all the movement abilities available. H2 for it's time was amazing. An undisputed classic and revolutionized online shooters. But by today's standards the mechanics don't hold up that well and the forgiving shooting is the main thing. We have people here that competed in the damn game and they'll tell you the main thing they would want changed is the shooting mechanics. It's just too easy. 

I can't speak on H5 since I've never played it, but I would argue that it is more difficult to shoot in H2C than it is in H2A, Reach, and H4; while at the same time being considerably easier than shooting in CE or H3.  However, at the end of the day, there aren't even any tournaments for H2C, H2A, Reach, or H4 so it doesn't seem to really matter.  

"We have people here that competed in the damn game and they'll tell you the main thing they would want changed is the shooting mechanics." 

Not saying this isn't true, but I would love to see any evidence of this being said.  Pretty much every former H2 pro or personality I follow on Twitter or Twitch doesn't even mention the existence of competitive Halo 2.

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