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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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“People don’t sit still to watch for camo.”

”You can’t predict camo.”

Big wrongo on both counts young lady. Your theories might sound good in your head, but that’s not the way the shit plays out.

When I went to my first few lans against people better than me, this was probably the most painful lesson I learned. I DONT get to do whatever I want with camo. I can’t tell you how many times I got spotted and lit up. If you know where to look and you sit still, you can see camo when they’re moving around. And choosing the wrong time and place to take your first shot with camo is a great way to lose it.

I distinctly remember watching a game at Devilman’s place with Jownz, where he had naded down camo on Derelict (the hardest map to see camo) and had ported up to push across to OS. He literally stopped in his tracks in the middle of the bridge when Dman looked at him, and waited for him to look away. He KNEW Dman would see him if he kept moving, and he’d lose his best chance to retake control. Shit was like the T-Rex scene from Jurassic Park.

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Imagine living in a world where people think that not being able to see a player who has camo is a design flaw... smh. CE doesn’t have sprint, clamber, or thrust and there’s fall damage. Player path taking prediction is completely manageable. If your team doesn’t have the camo when it spawns then there’s a pretty damn good chance the other team does so you know where the camo guy is. There’s only so many places they can go. Throw a nade in a path the camo guy is likely to take. Fire a prediction rocket. Stand still for two seconds and stare at the spot you think he might be going. Saying you have free reign of map movement when you have camo in CE is just absolute nonsense. Ironically enough, I’m MORE cautious with my map movement when I get camo. Taking a predictable path when when you have camo is a damn good way to waste the power up. Also, first shot advantage doesn’t mean nearly as much in a game where you can actually miss the second and third shot. There’s plenty of times where I get first shot on someone only to have them turn on me and light me up. Picking your targets careful is very important to getting good use out of camo.

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15 hours ago, WARGOD said:

Let someone who is good get camo all game while you get your OS and see what happens to you in CE.  That's about the time when you log off and run to the safety of whatever inferior game by comparison you can get your hands on whether it be:

Apex Legends
Division 2
Overwatch
Fortnite
Any COD
Any other Halo.... 

the list goes on. Doesn't matter what I'm playing, if someone says it's time for CE, then it's time for some fucking CE and I'm dropping that shit and playing CE no questions asked.  A better FPS gaming experience is a better FPS gaming experience, period.  Do you see anyone that goes to beach LAN coming together to play any of that shit instead of CE?  No.  Not our faults that the devs can't make nothing but mediocrity compared to Halo CE.  You know it, I know it, the ogres know it.  We are blessed to be playing during a time where the greatest FPS game on console to ever come out exists and we got people complaining about how they can't take out some random player on MCC that has camo?  Is this real life?  If you think that's a task, try going up against someone that has camo that is actually good.   I mean I come on here for some good laughs but this just takes the cake.

 

You’re in a great minority of halo fans and gamers in general, who think CE is the best. Sure that doesn’t make your “opinion” wrong but it sure as hell speaks louder than you people. 

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8 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

Imagine living in a world where people think that not being able to see a player who has camo is a design flaw... smh. CE doesn’t have sprint, clamber, or thrust and there’s fall damage. Player path taking prediction is completely manageable. If your team doesn’t have the camo when it spawns then there’s a pretty damn good chance the other team does so you know where the camo guy is. There’s only so many places they can go. Throw a nade in a path the camo guy is likely to take. Fire a prediction rocket. Stand still for two seconds and stare at the spot you think he might be going. Saying you have free reign of map movement when you have camo in CE is just absolute nonsense. Ironically enough, I’m MORE cautious with my map movement when I get camo. Taking a predictable path when when you have camo is a damn good way to waste the power up. Also, first shot advantage doesn’t mean nearly as much in a game where you can actually miss the second and third shot. There’s plenty of times where I get first shot on someone only to have them turn on me and light me up. Picking your targets careful is very important to getting good use out of camo.

That can happen in any halo game, whether you like it to believe it doesn’t is bs. And no you have no solid proof it happens more in CE than any other halo.

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12 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Which is my issue with it in general, lol. And it's only exacerbated depending on if you have slow or fast killtimes, given first shots matter so much more in a console shooter where you can't just heelturn smack a kid.

Gets worse in later titles which stop giving you aim assist on targets even if you can see them. What a godawful idea.

Tbh I actually like that aim assist part.

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10 hours ago, xxcloud7xx said:

You perceived his post as him legitimately criticising the flaws of Halo 1's camo and I perceived his post as him projecting his own inadequacies of not being able to predict and outplay his opponents in Halo 1 when his opponents have control of camo. Calling my post Waypoint logic is a pejorative and only detracts from your argument. I would like to further discuss Halo 1's camo with him but he hasn't responded to my other post. He hasn't answered what constitutes skill,  what constitutes competence, and what constitutes balance. He also hasn't answered my question of how isn't camo balanced in Halo 1.

I'm going to ask this question again since it seems to me that you have ignored my other post. What constitutes balance? How is camo unbalanced in Halo 1? Just because you assert that Halo 1's camo is unbalanced doesn't make the statement true. Have you ever considered that maybe the imbalance of Halo 1's camo that you perceive could actually be an inadequacy of you not being able to predict and outplay your opponents in Halo 1 when your opponents have control of camo instead of a legitimate inadequacy of camo in Halo 1?

Prediction skill is a hard debate because at the end of the day it’s just luck. Predicting where someone is isn’t skill because there’s no way of knowing 100% that person is in the area, spot etc that I’m predicting them to be. 

If im incompetent for not being able to see camo in mcc CE then please stfu I don’t want to speak to you at that point. I watched some of these halo Lans you guys do and the camo is clearly seeable somewhat. In this there’s nothing that lets me know this person is here, let  alone in front of me. This a major design flaw especially when I compare it to camos outside of halo CE. And obviously my OPINION doesn’t constitute as fact because there’s going to be someone who disagrees, there’s going to be someone who thinks the camo is perfectly designed(like you). Me not being able to predict my opponent with this camo has nothing to do with its flaw also. Next let’s talk about this prediction of hitting them randomly with a shot or nade, that’s just something people have done in every damn halo game. 

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4 hours ago, careh said:

Camo is hard to see... That's erm... kinda the point?

Of course you're going to have an advantage that is why items are on the map in the first place - advantages for teams to fight over. Prediction is still relevant as map motivations are very much still in play, give them the infinity gauntlet to travel through space and time too, they're still going to show up at the next OS spawn because they're still fixed within the narrative of the game. The risk / reward of travelling through open space is something that can be considered by both parties, you're not going to be dumbfounded when someone with a 45 second powerup makes a beline for you. Similarly you can reduce the effectiveness of camos advantages with your own positioning, compositional changes (both offensively and defensively) in relation to ultimates in Overwatch is a great visual example of this, but the concept is no different in Halo where you KNOW someone holds a specific advantage over you.

Hard to see and completely invisible are two different things.

 

5 hours ago, Basu said:

But it quite literally is. The buff the gave it was completely unnecessary. The only disadvantage H5 camo has is that you can't run at full speed while using it (lul sprint). Seriously how can you easily see H5 camo among all the visual clutter without glasses but CE camo gives you trouble?

Also I haven't played MCC CE in a while, but I remember camo used to be dogshit until a few patches ago. Did they buff it that hard? Can't believe that. With a little game sense and having an AR out to spray them down camo really isn't that much of a threat.

I have glasses but they’re a pain to wear with a headset, and even with them on too camo in CE currently has nothing that can let me know my opponent is there. You’d have to stand probably melee distance to do so. Maybe because I come from h3 and afterwards this is my opinion that the camo in CE is a design flaw. I’d debate most people who come from my background won’t see halo CE as a perfect game. Don’t get me started on halo CEs movement. 

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I too wear glasses and can see CE camo on MCC or OG. It really is easier to see CE camo over some later Halo games. 

CE isn't perfect and no one said it was. It's just arguably the best Halo title. 

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1 hour ago, Meleeisback said:

That can happen in any halo game, whether you like it to believe it doesn’t is bs. And no you have no solid proof it happens more in CE than any other halo.

And that wasn't your original point, was it?  You said you can't see it, and acted like theres nothing you can do about it. He said, no, you're wrong, there is something you can do about it. Then you said this ^^  It's irrelevant to your argument, and you essentially admitted that your original post was full of shit.

1 hour ago, Meleeisback said:

Prediction skill is a hard debate because at the end of the day it’s just luck. Predicting where someone is isn’t skill because there’s no way of knowing 100% that person is in the area, spot etc that I’m predicting them to be. 

If im incompetent for not being able to see camo in mcc CE then please stfu I don’t want to speak to you at that point. I watched some of these halo Lans you guys do and the camo is clearly seeable somewhat. In this there’s nothing that lets me know this person is here, let  alone in front of me. This a major design flaw especially when I compare it to camos outside of halo CE. And obviously my OPINION doesn’t constitute as fact because there’s going to be someone who disagrees, there’s going to be someone who thinks the camo is perfectly designed(like you). Me not being able to predict my opponent with this camo has nothing to do with its flaw also. Next let’s talk about this prediction of hitting them randomly with a shot or nade, that’s just something people have done in every damn halo game. 

First of all, prediction is a skill. Play someone good. See how often they predict you. Tell me they're just "lucky" over and over again. What a stupid fucking thing to say.

Secondly, camo is easier to see on OG if you're on a good TV. That's true. If I could make camo match OG 100%, I would. But it's not invisibility. I've seen camo many, many times on MCC, and I've been seen many times as well. You still have to play carefully with camo against someone that knows what they're doing. As for your situation, it sucks you can't see it when you're looking at it. If it really is an eyesight issue, I feel bad for you. Even if it's a screen quality issue, I feel bad for you there too. But I'm skeptical that's the problem. I think you don't know where to look, and you're not standing still (it helps a lot with spotting camo). I think you're losing to people better than you and not asking yourself the right questions. I think this because your attitude reveals that you're not really trying to learn. You're just mad that it's different.

Lastly, camo in other games isn't something to be admired. H2 camo is so easy to see it's a joke. It's good for not letting the enemy get red reticule for first shot, and that's about it. H3 and Reach (v7) camos are arguably harder to see than H1's, so I don't know why you don't have a problem with them. They also only last for 30s, don't let you nade while cloaked, and have no way to quick camo. They're not as fun to use, plain and simple.

All I see from you across all your various accounts is a lack of desire to learn. First of all, I feel like you come on here to bitch about H1 pretty often. Seems weird that you would keep playing it if you hate it so much. Secondly, all of your complaints reveal a fundamental lack of understanding about the game. There's plenty of legit complaints you could make about H1. You never seem to pick one. It's always something you could just learn your way out of, but you just don't. I would suggest approaching these problems with an open mind, or ask for help, or analyze why your opponent is having success. Or just give up and stop playing if it drives you so crazy. But coming on here an whining about stuff that you don't understand, or that's your fault, just makes you look bad.

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1 hour ago, Meleeisback said:

Hard to see and completely invisible are two different things.

 

I have glasses but they’re a pain to wear with a headset, and even with them on too camo in CE currently has nothing that can let me know my opponent is there. You’d have to stand probably melee distance to do so. Maybe because I come from h3 and afterwards this is my opinion that the camo in CE is a design flaw. I’d debate most people who come from my background won’t see halo CE as a perfect game. Don’t get me started on halo CEs movement. 

Ok so you come from H3. Imagine you’re still playing H3 and the camo works the same except the br, rockets, nades, and sniper have been replaced with their CE counterparts. You’d probably be complaining that the camo was too easy to see and needed to be buffed. The design flaw isn’t that camo is to hard to see. The design flaw is that everything else is too weak.

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What do you think about Overshield increasing the size of the user’s hitbox and being deshielded decreasing the size of the user’s hitbox?

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19 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

Ok so you come from H3. Imagine you’re still playing H3 and the camo works the same except the br, rockets, nades, and sniper have been replaced with their CE counterparts. You’d probably be complaining that the camo was too easy to see and needed to be buffed. The design flaw isn’t that camo is to hard to see. The design flaw is that everything else is too weak.

I actually don’t mind the CE being somewhat easy to see. Too weak is entirely subjective.

 

34 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

And that wasn't your original point, was it?  You said you can't see it, and acted like theres nothing you can do about it. He said, no, you're wrong, there is something you can do about it. Then you said this ^^  It's irrelevant to your argument, and you essentially admitted that your original post was full of shit.

First of all, prediction is a skill. Play someone good. See how often they predict you. Tell me they're just "lucky" over and over again. What a stupid fucking thing to say.

Secondly, camo is easier to see on OG if you're on a good TV. That's true. If I could make camo match OG 100%, I would. But it's not invisibility. I've seen camo many, many times on MCC, and I've been seen many times as well. You still have to play carefully with camo against someone that knows what they're doing. As for your situation, it sucks you can't see it when you're looking at it. If it really is an eyesight issue, I feel bad for you. Even if it's a screen quality issue, I feel bad for you there too. But I'm skeptical that's the problem. I think you don't know where to look, and you're not standing still (it helps a lot with spotting camo). I think you're losing to people better than you and not asking yourself the right questions. I think this because your attitude reveals that you're not really trying to learn. You're just mad that it's different.

Lastly, camo in other games isn't something to be admired. H2 camo is so easy to see it's a joke. It's good for not letting the enemy get red reticule for first shot, and that's about it. H3 and Reach (v7) camos are arguably harder to see than H1's, so I don't know why you don't have a problem with them. They also only last for 30s, don't let you nade while cloaked, and have no way to quick camo. They're not as fun to use, plain and simple.

All I see from you across all your various accounts is a lack of desire to learn. First of all, I feel like you come on here to bitch about H1 pretty often. Seems weird that you would keep playing it if you hate it so much. Secondly, all of your complaints reveal a fundamental lack of understanding about the game. There's plenty of legit complaints you could make about H1. You never seem to pick one. It's always something you could just learn your way out of, but you just don't. I would suggest approaching these problems with an open mind, or ask for help, or analyze why your opponent is having success. Or just give up and stop playing if it drives you so crazy. But coming on here an whining about stuff that you don't understand, or that's your fault, just makes you look bad.

I play the game to try to see why some enjoy it the way they do, I try to figure out what’s so good about it that you people say. I’m pretty open minded jackass I just won’t let you get the benefit of knowing that usually. Prediction is not a skill regardless of how good someone can be at predicting someone. My prediction “skill” is usually good but I’m not going to sit here and act like it’s 100% skill. It doesn’t drive me crazy as you like to believe, it’s just funny seeing people here get all derailed about someone not thinking their  beloved ce is the best halo. RNG pistol, crappy movement(looks like you’re sliding) , crappy jump(no matter how many times you ce purist say you don’t like this, you can’t escape the FACT it’s there, it’s in the game and you have no idea how different ce could play without that obvious flaw) mechanics, fall damage, crappy spawning system(I believe one of you mentioned how new players didn’t like prisoner because they kept spawning in the line of sight of their opponents, that’s clear evidence only a purist could love this horrid spawning, and just because you as a player have control of this spawning doesn’t mean that it’s good), and over usage of power ups(it may encourage map movement but in a bad way if you ask me depending on the map design). All in all I still find ways or times to enjoy the game. I still prefer other halos but I won’t completely dislike the game. You wanted me to say something specific I disliked about the game now here you go. Just waiting for the constant “I’m wrong and here’s why” 

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This is literally an argument over opinions. Not everyone is going to like CE. Not everyone is going to like Halo 3. Blanket statements about either are just wrong.  Is CE camo hard to see? Yes. Does the H3 BR suck ass? Yes. Does CE need more things to help new players learn the game? Yes, and NHE is trying to include those. Does every other Halo game have stupid as fuck power weapons? Yes. 

 

What I'm really saying is I want to argue over Boyo ideas. 

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15 minutes ago, OG Nick said:

This is literally an argument over opinions. Not everyone is going to like CE. Not everyone is going to like Halo 3. Blanket statements about either are just wrong.  Is CE camo hard to see? Yes. Does the H3 BR suck ass? Yes. Does CE need more things to help new players learn the game? Yes, and NHE is trying to include those. Does every other Halo game have stupid as fuck power weapons? Yes. 

 

What I'm really saying is I want to argue over Boyo ideas. 

Basically. Honestly if the h3 br was like halo online br thatd be great.

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3 hours ago, Hard Way said:

“People don’t sit still to watch for camo.”

”You can’t predict camo.”

Big wrongo on both counts young lady. Your theories might sound good in your head, but that’s not the way the shit plays out.

When I went to my first few lans against people better than me, this was probably the most painful lesson I learned. I DONT get to do whatever I want with camo. I can’t tell you how many times I got spotted and lit up. If you know where to look and you sit still, you can see camo when they’re moving around. And choosing the wrong time and place to take your first shot with camo is a great way to lose it.

I distinctly remember watching a game at Devilman’s place with Jownz, where he had naded down camo on Derelict (the hardest map to see camo) and had ported up to push across to OS. He literally stopped in his tracks in the middle of the bridge when Dman looked at him, and waited for him to look away. He KNEW Dman would see him if he kept moving, and he’d lose his best chance to retake control. Shit was like the T-Rex scene from Jurassic Park.

Weird way of addressing me, lel. You sounded like my mom or dad. I thought I was in trouble all over again. They call me goddess where I come from, I'll have you know.

Second, okay, so, people will stand still to see camo. It's a viable strat. To be honest, that's actually stupider than the other outcome. So you sit in place, and completely halt your movement and map progression to stare around for a camo dude who's maybe moving around. But they could very well not even be in front of you, and you stopping does nothing but give them more time to move on you, or another power weapon. Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty dumb that you need to sacrifice more on top of your sight already, lol. 

Also, it's T. rex. Aaaaaaa.

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"Young lady" LOL!  Daddy Hard Way over here. 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Second, okay, so, people will stand still to see camo. It's a viable strat. To be honest, that's actually stupider than the other outcome. So you sit in place, and completely halt your movement and map progression to stare around for a camo dude who's maybe moving around. But they could very well not even be in front of you, and you stopping does nothing but give them more time to move on you, or another power weapon. Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty dumb that you need to sacrifice more on top of your sight already, lol. 

My preferred tactic is to send my teammate out as bait.

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3 minutes ago, RVG E Nomini said:

My preferred tactic is to send my teammate out as bait.

Meanwhile more than just the camo'ed enemy exists on the map, lol. 

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Truly invigorating gameplay. Sitting completely still while straining my eyes staring at my screen. It's why I play games. That experience is unmatched. 

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I really don't get this camo hate, other than beast and ice's age old vendetta against map pickups of course. Camo is the powerup that requires the most skill and proficiency to be effective with, as in knowing sneaky routes, choosing paths that won't get the user instablained, learning when to go for backsmacks etc. It actually adds a unique twist to the game and makes for some interesting encounters. You guys are (as always) simplyfing things to a point where it's very easy to make stuff look bad "huehue so you're just standing still the whole time looking for the camo guy", like cmon.

A bad player will never dominate matches just because of camo. I truly don't understand where this is coming from, especially on the context of the good Halo games and CE of all of them, though I can understand hating H5 camo or the cancerous AA in Reach and H4 lol.

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22 minutes ago, Basu said:

I really don't get this camo hate, other than beast and ice's age old vendetta against map pickups of course. Camo is the powerup that requires the most skill and proficiency to be effective with, as in knowing sneaky routes, choosing paths that won't get the user instablained, learning when to go for backsmacks etc. It actually adds a unique twist to the game and makes for some interesting encounters. You guys are (as always) simplyfing things to a point where it's very easy to make stuff look bad "huehue so you're just standing still the whole time looking for the camo guy", like cmon.

A bad player will never dominate matches just because of camo. I truly don't understand where this is coming from, especially on the context of the good Halo games and CE of all of them, though I can understand hating H5 camo or the cancerous AA in Reach and H4 lol.

One should never balance things how well a bad player uses something but how a good player does. 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Meanwhile more than just the camo'ed enemy exists on the map, lol. 

Making it a dual tactic and showing your lack of cunning on the battlefield.

tenor.gif

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45 minutes ago, Basu said:

I really don't get this camo hate, other than beast and ice's age old vendetta against map pickups of course. Camo is the powerup that requires the most skill and proficiency to be effective with, as in knowing sneaky routes, choosing paths that won't get the user instablained, learning when to go for backsmacks etc. It actually adds a unique twist to the game and makes for some interesting encounters. You guys are (as always) simplyfing things to a point where it's very easy to make stuff look bad "huehue so you're just standing still the whole time looking for the camo guy", like cmon.

A bad player will never dominate matches just because of camo. I truly don't understand where this is coming from, especially on the context of the good Halo games and CE of all of them, though I can understand hating H5 camo or the cancerous AA in Reach and H4 lol.

People argue in this thread because there is something to argue about, or in a lot of cases nothing really important to argue about. Can you actually imagine a world in which the design team are discussing power-ups in the next Halo game and someone comes out with all that crap saying Camo shouldn't be a thing in console shooters, then when pressed about an alternative they argue that pickup advantages (including Halo's rediculously easy power weapons) are cheap. They'd be laughed out of the room.

It's dumb reductionist Halo theory to its core that ignores anything potentially fun, challenging or engaging and focuses on what is completely airtight from a theoretical perspective. You ultimately arrive at an aim training simulator for console and then are completely stumpted on where to go next.
 

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