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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

This should be first priority. Hardly anyone plays MCC now, hardly anyone will play it on PC once the novelty wears off unless it has something Halo has never had, which is official mod support. 

So, the games, feature complete and all, really can't stand on their own as good games that hook people for a good, long time without community mod support, and are just a novelty product. Something that wasn't ever brought in in any way until Halo 4. Lol.

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8 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

So, the games, feature complete and all, really can't stand on their own as good games that hook people for a good, long time without community mod support, and are just a novelty product. Something that wasn't ever brought in in any way until Halo 4. Lol.

"Feature complete"? What features are PC MCC players getting? Are tens of thousands of people going to swoop in on Halo just so they can play it at 144Hz? Forge and Theater aren't even going to be there at launch, nevermind the staggered release schedule. 

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31 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

"Feature complete"? What features are PC MCC players getting? Are tens of thousands of people going to swoop in on Halo just so they can play it at 144Hz? Forge and Theater aren't even going to be there at launch, nevermind the staggered release schedule. 

I mean, yeah, I'd assume tens of thousands of players would swoop in to just play a game to play a game, provided it's good enough, regardless of mod support. Especially if they've never been able to by virtue of the platform. The most popular games now in some cases don't inherently have it. Halo 1-Reach didn't have it originally, either. While I'm not saying it's a negative to have them, I don't think not having them for now will tank a game that is simply good and can stand on its own from a purely gameplay perspective, and I find the idea that Halo running on gameplay alone seemingly isn't good enough to last without them to be funny, given how much praise the past titles get for that reason, lol. Past Halos certainly didn't need it to succeed, current games now don't need it to, even though it can aid in longevity.

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12 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I mean, yeah, I'd assume tens of thousands of players would swoop in to just play a game to play a game, provided it's good enough, regardless of mod support. Especially if they've never been able to by virtue of the platform. The most popular games now in some cases don't inherently have it. Halo 1-Reach didn't have it originally, either. While I'm not saying it's a negative to have them, I don't think not having them for now will tank a game that is simply good and can stand on its own from a purely gameplay perspective, and I find the idea that Halo running on gameplay alone seemingly isn't good enough to last without them to be funny, given how much praise the past titles get for that reason, lol. Past Halos certainly didn't need it to succeed, current games now don't need it to, even though it can aid in longevity.

Where are all these people chomping at the bit to play Halo right now with MCC, a collection of games that are either good or relevant but not both? MCC and H5 have crap for populations, why would there be a hidden reserve of people waiting to be diligent and semi-permanent Halo fans only when it comes out on PC? Hell, look at the state of Halo PC back in the day. What was the customs browser completely filled with? 8v8 rOcKeTz hog TRICK JUMPS no NOOBZ on Death Island, with modded vehicles that fired machine gun gauss rounds with 10x explosion radius. 

You're kind of glazing over the fact that people don't really care about Halo these days, which is really weird given the state of things that we're all so pointedly aware of. There will absolutely be a surge of players to start out MCC's life on PC (mostly of people wanting to run through the campaigns, and also people wanting to get in on Reach), but a lack of Forge, Theater, mods, and all of the games on launch is going to put a huge dent in those numbers. I would argue that most of the players that stick around are going to be double-dippers from console. 

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7 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

You're kind of glazing over the fact that people don't really care about Halo these days, which is really weird given the state of things that we're all so pointedly aware of. There will absolutely be a surge of players to start out MCC's life on PC (mostly of people wanting to run through the campaigns, and also people wanting to get in on Reach), but a lack of Forge, Theater, mods, and all of the games on launch is going to put a huge dent in those numbers. I would argue that most of the players that stick around are going to be double-dippers from console. 

Just the announcement of Halo to PC was the number 1 post on reddit, was trending on both youtube and twitter, and was higher than any of the Cyberpunk threads on /r/games. How can you possibly say that people don't care about it coming to PC? Acting like no forge or theater is going to kill the game also is just a joke. They will be added later which will bring people in that do care but the vast majority of players just want to play the damn game that they haven't been able to play. For some context from a quick google search the number of xbox one consoles sold was estimated at 39 million compared to 125 million steam players. People tend to care a lot more about a game they can actually play and with Halo coming to PC a shit ton more players are going to be able to play it again. 

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6 minutes ago, infraction said:

Just the announcement of Halo to PC was the number 1 post on reddit, was trending on both youtube and twitter, and was higher than any of the Cyberpunk threads on /r/games. How can you possibly say that people don't care about it coming to PC? Acting like no forge or theater is going to kill the game also is just a joke. They will be added later which will bring people in that do care but the vast majority of players just want to play the damn game that they haven't been able to play. For some context from a quick google search the number of xbox one consoles sold was estimated at 39 million compared to 125 million steam players. People tend to care a lot more about a game they can actually play and with Halo coming to PC a shit ton more players are going to be able to play it again. 

Was that announcement before or after the mile-long list of stipulations regarding the release. Something tells me people would have been much less hyped if the announcement were clearer. Headlines read "MCC on PC" when in reality it's "Halo Reach on PC, with no Forge mode, mod tools, or servers".

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1 minute ago, Sitri said:

Was that announcement before or after the mile-long list of stipulations regarding the release. Something tells me people would have been much less hyped if the announcement were clearer. Headlines read "MCC on PC" when in reality it's "Halo Reach on PC, with no Forge mode, mod tools, or servers".

The announcement was when they said it was reach first and other games to follow. And it isn't "Halo Reach on PC, with no Forge mode, mod tools, or servers" since all that stuff is being added along with all future games so I don't really see your point. If one of those truly is a deal breaker for someone they are coming in the future.

 

Also what do you mean no servers? They have already said it is going to have dedicated servers for it just like on xbox

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I'm sure most of you know this, so I'm probably behind on it. But changing my display setting to 1080p on my Xbox One X gives me more responsive controls in all my games, including MCC. It also clearly changed the gamma settings overall as well. Weird.

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I'm hearing all these cool things so I'm expecting a nuclear meltdown come launch day. Like, as bad as MCCs launch. 

 

Change my mind.

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12 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Where are all these people chomping at the bit to play Halo right now with MCC, a collection of games that are either good or relevant but not both? MCC and H5 have crap for populations, why would there be a hidden reserve of people waiting to be diligent and semi-permanent Halo fans only when it comes out on PC? Hell, look at the state of Halo PC back in the day. What was the customs browser completely filled with? 8v8 rOcKeTz hog TRICK JUMPS no NOOBZ on Death Island, with modded vehicles that fired machine gun gauss rounds with 10x explosion radius. 

You're kind of glazing over the fact that people don't really care about Halo these days, which is really weird given the state of things that we're all so pointedly aware of. There will absolutely be a surge of players to start out MCC's life on PC (mostly of people wanting to run through the campaigns, and also people wanting to get in on Reach), but a lack of Forge, Theater, mods, and all of the games on launch is going to put a huge dent in those numbers. I would argue that most of the players that stick around are going to be double-dippers from console. 

It's like you missed the entire announcement for Halo on PC, lol. Or the years of people wanting PC Halo. Doesn't really disprove my point either. In short, if a game is good, I would expect people to play it en masse, regardless of mods. Other games prove this. Mods can help, but aren't an essential backbone unless your game is designed around UGC, which it doesn't need to be to survive.

Aaand I consider the staggered release argument to be a slight cop-out, or at least misused. I'm waiting to play H2A and H4 on PC. The fact they're coming later than other games won't dissuade me from MCC on the PC given I never cared about the other games enough to play in the first place, bar brain-melting social times with friends. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts because of how Halo is, everyone has their favorite like I do. I'd bet hardcore the people who're getting MCC to play every single Halo or don't care and end up playing them all are in an honest minority, and are a part of the population that won't really stick around. Most people have their one or two Halos they enjoy, and a staggered release means dickall when the games as a full release (Barring Reach for some reason I assume we'll learn of later) are being ported over time. This isn't like Halo 5 where it's one game being patched in with old content over time, driving people away. It's an essential hub being patched in with full titles over time. Someone who loves Halo 3 won't be offput when Reach, CE and 2 come out before it, if they never cared for those titles. They'll just wait for Halo 3, lmao. Or fill space with the other games. Same for every other title.

Just now, Mr Grim said:

I'm hearing all these cool things so I'm expecting a nuclear meltdown come launch day. Like, as bad as MCCs launch. 

 

Change my mind.

I'd expect the worst part to be optimization if anything. If the build is stable now, and already PC native (Given MCC's origins) porting it to work across a ton of variable settings is the biggest issue. We already know it works, there's no real reason for it to not work unless they went back to an earlier build to port, which I doubt. Kinda like Halo 5's shit optimization.

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42 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It's like you missed the entire announcement for Halo on PC, lol. Or the years of people wanting PC Halo. Doesn't really disprove my point either. In short, if a game is good, I would expect people to play it en masse, regardless of mods. Other games prove this. Mods can help, but aren't an essential backbone unless your game is designed around UGC, which it doesn't need to be to survive.

Aaand I consider the staggered release argument to be a slight cop-out, or at least misused. I'm waiting to play H2A and H4 on PC. The fact they're coming later than other games won't dissuade me from MCC on the PC given I never cared about the other games enough to play in the first place, bar brain-melting social times with friends. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts because of how Halo is, everyone has their favorite like I do. I'd bet hardcore the people who're getting MCC to play every single Halo or don't care and end up playing them all are in an honest minority, and are a part of the population that won't really stick around. Most people have their one or two Halos they enjoy, and a staggered release means dickall when the games as a full release (Barring Reach for some reason I assume we'll learn of later) are being ported over time. This isn't like Halo 5 where it's one game being patched in with old content over time, driving people away. It's an essential hub being patched in with full titles over time. Someone who loves Halo 3 won't be offput when Reach, CE and 2 come out before it, if they never cared for those titles. They'll just wait for Halo 3, lmao. Or fill space with the other games. Same for every other title.

You're dodging my question. Where are all these die-hard Halo fans right now?

And to mods, I will repeat an argument I've said many times. When CE came out, it effectively created console LAN'ing (where actual "LAN" took place) and brought the dual-analogy system to the masses, not to mention its shooting mechanics are actually extremely important in the console shooter landscape. H2 brought us the online console matchmaking/lobby experience as we know it today. Halo 3 brought us Forge and Theater. What did Reach give us? Dick all that hadn't been done before. What did H4 give us? Dick all that hadn't been done before. What did H5 give us? Dick all that hadn't been done before. Noticing a theme there? All the influential Halo games changed something about the way we experienced Halo, if not console shooting itself. All the Halo games that didn't do that had hemorrhaging populations. Now Halo has a chance to bring something fresh to the scene that until now had only ever been on the rough outskirts of the franchise, and they're balking. 

Modding is important. Nevermind Halo, look at other franchises. Look at Skyrim. Look at Fallout. Look at Arma. These franchises live and breathe on their modding scenes. Look at Dota, look at TF2, look at CS: Source. Games built entirely upon mods. That's how important and relevant modding is to the PC world. And Halo is just going to casually be like, "eh, we'll get to it when we get to it"? This should %1000 be a launch priority, especially with the staggered releases. It's fucking SELF-PERPETUATING INTEREST in the franchise, it's free exposure with the dev team having to do literally nothing except provide the tools. 

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I actually don't really think they should have optimization issues. I signed up for the PC flights because, well, I actually have a PC I game on more than my Xbox. I'm sure I'm not the only one and hopefully a lot of us can help since we both know how the games are supposed to work and are familiar with PC gaming in general. If they don't address optimization issues it would honestly be a tragedy since most of the games probably run decently well without too much effort due to being so old that even if they're wildly inefficient modern hardware will handle it anyways assuming they iron out anything gamebreaking. Its probably the major focus of any PC flights  

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19 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

You're dodging my question. Where are all these die-hard Halo fans right now?

On pc? Also why do they have the be die-hard halo fans to play the game?

 

Also to your point about not innovating. Games like csgo LOL PUBG really didn't innovate on their previous iterations and are still MASSIVELY successful so the idea that if the game doesn't innovate it is going to die is just strictly false. 

 

And while yes games like Dota or CS are originally mods the games that they are entirely new games (that don't really have a mod scene for them at all) and are probably the 2 most popular games 5 games in the world. Using them as an example of why mods are important doesn't work because they are mods of HL2 and Warcraft, games which both dota and CS eclipsed in popularity decades ago.

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22 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

What did Reach give us?  Matchmaking firefight, extensive armor customization, Forge island

What did H4 give us? Who cares

What did H5 give us? Custom browser (I feel like this is severely overlooked), IMO a good ranking system, not some arbitrary 50 system where X number of people share the same rank.  I appreciate seeing who is #1, #2, etc. 

I honestly don't get your hostility Lemon... To the point where it looks like your the old man yelling at the clouds because it's not exactly how you want it.  

 

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Just now, infraction said:

On pc? Also why do they have the be die-hard halo fans to play the game?

Because they still need to be there in a month. 

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Also to your point about not innovating. Games like csgo LOL PUBG really didn't innovate on their previous iterations and are still MASSIVELY successful so the idea that if the game doesn't innovate it is going to die is just strictly false. 

Okay, well, Halo has been dying. So why exactly is it a convincing argument to say, "let's take this debacle of a collection of games that everyone's already played and put them on PC, #WEBACK". 

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And while yes games like Dota or CS are originally mods the games that they are entirely new games (that don't really have a mod scene for them at all) and are probably the 2 most popular games 5 games in the world. Using them as an example of why mods are important doesn't work because they are mods of HL2 and Warcraft, games which both dota and CS eclipsed in popularity decades ago.

I...don't see how that counters my point. 

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2 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Because they still need to be there in a month. 

No reason to think if someone isn't a die hard fan they will quit the game after a month. Thousands of players played halo games for months after launch without being a die-hard fan

 

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Okay, well, Halo has been dying. So why exactly is it a convincing argument to say, "let's take this debacle of a collection of games that everyone's already played and put them on PC, #WEBACK". 

 

Because PC is a massive new audience of players that clearly are excited to play the game. The amount of hype from the announcement of the game shows this. 

 

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 I...don't see how that counters my point. 

Because those games aren't popular because of a mod. They were just made possible from a mode. They were popular because they were good games. 

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39 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

You're dodging my question. Where are all these die-hard Halo fans right now?

And to mods, I will repeat an argument I've said many times. When CE came out, it effectively created console LAN'ing (where actual "LAN" took place) and brought the dual-analogy system to the masses, not to mention its shooting mechanics are actually extremely important in the console shooter landscape. H2 brought us the online console matchmaking/lobby experience as we know it today. Halo 3 brought us Forge and Theater. What did Reach give us? Dick all that hadn't been done before. What did H4 give us? Dick all that hadn't been done before. What did H5 give us? Dick all that hadn't been done before. Noticing a theme there? All the influential Halo games changed something about the way we experienced Halo, if not console shooting itself. All the Halo games that didn't do that had hemorrhaging populations. Now Halo has a chance to bring something fresh to the scene that until now had only ever been on the rough outskirts of the franchise, and they're balking. 

Modding is important. Nevermind Halo, look at other franchises. Look at Skyrim. Look at Fallout. Look at Arma. These franchises live and breathe on their modding scenes. Look at Dota, look at TF2, look at CS: Source. Games built entirely upon mods. That's how important and relevant modding is to the PC world. And Halo is just going to casually be like, "eh, we'll get to it when we get to it"? This should %1000 be a launch priority, especially with the staggered releases. It's fucking SELF-PERPETUATING INTEREST in the franchise, it's free exposure with the dev team having to do literally nothing except provide the tools. 

Apparently on PC, and playing Apex, waiting for the next Halo, lol. I don't blame them for not existing now when the last new title was in 2015, lol. Still doesn't really shake how tons of people are excited over this announcement.

And Halo 3's success (Just for the sake of argument) had so much more to do with hype and the time where it came out (Being the end of a trilogy, and the first Halo on a new console following the acclaimed Halo 2) over forge and theater being features that exist. Don't get me wrong, they're great features and aided in longevity with the advent of the file share for consoles. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut I would argue they were not the reason the game sold like hotcakes, nor would I say that, just because a Halo past it didn't bring anything hilariously new to the table means THAT'S why they hemorrhaged population numbers, even though that statement is disingenuous.

Take Halo 5. Its forge alone makes Halo 3's forge absolute garbage in comparison. It was the endcap of this near decade of refinement for forge, and made something truly special, while not being an inherently new feature. Which I argue is more important. Given how much Halo 5's forge can do. And that's just forge. It doesn't count the customs browser, and I'd argue MCC's match composer, while not in a mainline title is an insanely cool innovation for consoles that sets a good standard for multiplayer based repackages of games. One that 343i is setting their own really good bar for. However, 5 lost people because it was feature-less on launch, and also pretty alienating to casual and most hardcore fans. Not because it failed to bring insanely new bright shiny features.  Because it did that in spades, just fine. And that's also going with the fact that games don't need to innovate to be successful long term, either, as shit like CoD shows.

Again, I'm not arguing modding isn't good, or can't be needed. But one has to remember Halo literally succeeded for a decade or so without major modding capabilities ever being officially endorsed widely. Again, major modding being implemented into Halo didn't really happen until about Halo 4, when 343i ran with mods for some new gametypes they put into MM. The franchise succeeded on other aspects, over the ability for the end user to radically change the core game through aesthetic means, or the like. Given gameplay means WERE provided in forge. You can't tell me Halo somehow needs it now, of all times, or it'll die when you're talking about four games that literally kept their population hooked for a decade or so, without them. Apparently, besides what I think, the games were good enough on their own for a good technological, and platform-based bump to be all they need for a good few more years of life with a new community. I want mods, mostly for some aesthetic reasons. I don't think they're gonna be the reason this collection keels over. Nor do I think they would stave it off, fully.

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7 minutes ago, infraction said:

No reason to think if someone isn't a die hard fan they will quit the game after a month. Thousands of players played halo games for months after launch without being a die-hard fan

"Thousands" is probably exactly the concurrent metric going for Halo 5 at this point, probably less for MCC. That's Microsoft's flagship series. Is that really the population count you're satisfied with? 

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person left around here that wants Halo to be better than it has been. 

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Because those games aren't popular because of a mod. They were just made possible from a mode. They were popular because they were good games. 

They literally would not exist without mods. And even then, so what? If something better and more viable spins up from Halo's mod scene, is that a bad thing? 

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1 minute ago, Cursed Lemon said:

"Thousands" is probably exactly the concurrent metric going for Halo 5 at this point, probably less for MCC. That's Microsoft's flagship series. Is that really the population count you're satisfied with? 

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person left around here that wants Halo to be better than it has been. 

I should have clarified better but I was talking about the hundred of thousands of players that were playing h3 over a year after release.

 

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They literally would not exist without mods. And even then, so what? If something better and more viable spins up from Halo's mod scene, is that a bad thing? 

It isn't a bad thing but the point is that to act like halo will die on pc without a mod scene when the most popular games on pc don't have a mod scene kind of proves you wrong and you just aren't realizing it. 

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Just now, infraction said:

It isn't a bad thing but the point is that to act like halo will die on pc without a mod scene when the most popular games on pc don't have a mod scene kind of proves you wrong and you just aren't realizing it. 

Halo died on console. Why is it so outrageous to suggest it could do the same on PC? The hype was there for H5, and H4. Look what happened. 

Are you really going to sit here and compare Halo, a 19-year-old IP, to a game like LoL or Fortnite, games which are currently in their prime and codified their respective genres? 

Mod support needs to be high on the priority list. End of story. 

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3 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Halo died on console. Why is it so outrageous to suggest it could do the same on PC? The hype was there for H5, and H4. Look what happened. 

Are you really going to sit here and compare Halo, a 19-year-old IP, to a game like LoL or Fortnite, games which are currently in their prime and codified their respective genres? 

Mod support needs to be high on the priority list. End of story. 

Halo died on console because of games fans deemed subpar. Halo succeeded during a decade's worth of no mod support. Never forget that, lmao. No mod support isn't the reason Halo died.

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22 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Apparently on PC, and playing Apex, waiting for the next Halo, lol. I don't blame them for not existing now when the last new title was in 2015, lol. 

Uhhhh, why not? 

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And Halo 3's success (Just for the sake of argument) had so much more to do with hype and the time where it came out (Being the end of a trilogy, and the first Halo on a new console following the acclaimed Halo 2) over forge and theater being features that exist. Don't get me wrong, they're great features and aided in longevity with the advent of the file share for consoles. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut I would argue they were not the reason the game sold like hotcakes, nor would I say that, just because a Halo past it didn't bring anything hilariously new to the table means THAT'S why they hemorrhaged population numbers, even though that statement is disingenuous.

They are not why the game sold. They are absolutely why the game posted humongous population numbers all the way through its lifespan and dominated XBL right up until CoD found its footing. Grifball is likely the most culturally relevant Halo phenomenon to ever exist besides Red vs. Blue. 

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Take Halo 5. Its forge alone makes Halo 3's forge absolute garbage in comparison. It was the endcap of this near decade of refinement for forge, and made something truly special, while not being an inherently new feature. Which I argue is more important. Given how much Halo 5's forge can do. And that's just forge. It doesn't count the customs browser, and I'd argue MCC's match composer, while not in a mainline title is an insanely cool innovation for consoles that sets a good standard for multiplayer based repackages of games. One that 343i is setting their own really good bar for. However, 5 lost people because it was feature-less on launch, and also pretty alienating to casual and most hardcore fans. Not because it failed to bring insanely new bright shiny features.  Because it did that in spades, just fine. And that's also going with the fact that games don't need to innovate to be successful long term, either, as shit like CoD shows.

All those things you just mentioned were no longer original concepts in the Halo games after H3. They were not killer apps, they were not must-have experiences, and so they did not drive and sustain the games after they launched. Sure, they were great for established, die-hard Halo fans who were going to stick around no matter what, but as far as the multiplayer is concerned that is not a significant amount of people today compared to what once was. 

MCC on PC is going to be "featureless at launch" just like H5 was, why are you not docking it for that? Once again, mods would be an absurdly easy method of sustained interest. Mods are Forge on steroids, and custom games are an enormous part of Halo's multiplayer core compared to other competitive game franchises which are often overwhelmingly centered around matchmaking. 

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Again, I'm not arguing modding isn't good, or can't be needed. But one has to remember Halo literally succeeded for a decade or so without major modding capabilities ever being officially endorsed widely. Again, major modding being implemented into Halo didn't really happen until about Halo 4, when 343i ran with mods for some new gametypes they put into MM. The franchise succeeded on other aspects, over the ability for the end user to radically change the core game through aesthetic means, or the like. Given gameplay means WERE provided in forge. You can't tell me Halo somehow needs it now, of all times, or it'll die when you're talking about four games that literally kept their population hooked for a decade or so, without them. Apparently, besides what I think, the games were good enough on their own for a good technological, and platform-based bump to be all they need for a good few more years of life with a new community. I want mods, mostly for some aesthetic reasons. I don't think they're gonna be the reason this collection keels over. Nor do I think they would stave it off, fully.

I don't know what universe you guys are living in where you think naked versions of old Halo games have the same pull that they did 10 years ago, but it's not the one currently running reality. 

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6 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Halo died on console because of games fans deemed subpar. Halo succeeded during a decade's worth of no mod support. Never forget that, lmao. No mod support isn't the reason Halo died.

When did I say no mod support is the reason Halo died? 

I said mod support is a key to bringing it back to life. 

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there were 8,000 people playing halo 3 online and it wasn't official. though it was free. mcc has the chance to be a really good game. tho without a f2p model, i don't see it being very high after the hype dies down. mcc is gunna lack tons of features. it can't compete with dota2 or csgo or fortnite. h2 and CE are already on PC and they boast a population of 40 and 500-1000. 

 

mod support is definitely a game changer as it brings a new experience to every single old fan and creates infinite new content. 

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Well for one thing, we live in a world that's far more accepting of modding. Mostly because of how much more accessible it is. It's one of those things that if left unincluded, dates the game. Like 60 fps and hd resolution. Sure halo survived without those things in the past. But now they're the industry standard. Would it survive today without them?

 

Also not to harp on this but reach didn't exactly have a hemorrhaging population. That game had a stable 100k and above pop until h4 came out. It wasnt as big as h3, but at least is survived. Unlike h4 and 5. And I wouldnt say it did nothing new either. Unless you don't count it's massive improvements to forge and the introduction of the file browser.

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